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  1. #31
    Fantastic Member Hugo Strange's Avatar
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    I want to see how Spencer will explain Harry being a demon all this time. There were at least 10 situations during the last 10 years that Harry could use his demonic powers.

  2. #32
    Fantastic Member Yvonmukluk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzika_Sowa View Post
    The teasing never ends.They had o good opportunity to retcon / resolve / acknowledge OMD with this story, and it seems they had chosen another direction.

    A wasted opportunity in my opinion. But hey, the story is still good, even with the reveal that we got.

    I wonder if Norman will stay cleansed for a bit. I would like to see some stories with him becoming sane. I also wonder if Kindred will resurrect a certain uncle from the grave.

    Anyway, I still wonder how Kindred can be dead, if he is alive at the same time.
    I mean...

    Kindred clearly talked as if he'd died in earlier issues, complete with flashbacks to his death, and Harry's unexplained recovery happened at the exact same time as the marriage ended. This run started with a flashback to Sensational Spider-Man Annual, they're putting out a reprint of The Wedding...I'm pretty sure Harry/Kindred remembers being at that wedding, even if nobody else does. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out he's got some opinions on that whole matter...

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    The reveal feels kind of basic, there were plenty of other more interesting options that could've been used to absolve the franchise of its original sin.
    If you mean "OMD", I am not sure I would refer to that as "original sin" by any means. Original sin implies something wrong from the very start, i.e. Lee-Ditko*. OMD is a storyline from 13 years back, it's a very recent sin. That might be pedantic but the word "original sin" is a phrase with a specific intent and purpose, signifying something rotten from the very start, a mistake you cannot ever undo.



    * If we want to name something that can be considered an "original sin", that would be Peter graduating high school in ASM#28, the aging of the characters and real-time passage in that Marvel, which is the one genie that recent Marvel (circa-2000) has come to resent, since it directly set the stage for Peter to grow up progressively over time.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo Strange View Post
    I want to see how Spencer will explain Harry being a demon all this time. There were at least 10 situations during the last 10 years that Harry could use his demonic powers.
    The current theory and general indication I think, is that BND-Harry, the Harry you've read in the last 10 years isn't the actual Harry Osborn.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    There is a picture of Harry as a reflection, you can tell by the haircut it's Harry, and in the editor notes advertising the Last Remains issue checklist they explcitly say Harry Osborn as the reveal.

    Can I just say I am so glad it wasn't Gwen, or Peter pre-OMD because I personally thought both of those options would have been horrible and I would have hated both.
    If Gwen - can they just leave her/keep her dead, and let Spider-Gwen breath?
    If Peter - clone saga level bad where the Peter you've read for more than a decade isn't the true Peter.
    In a previous thread that was deleted, I mentioned the reflection having the same exact hair style that Harry and Norman are known for. Quite a number of people are saying its Gabriel. Problem is we saw Gabriel in Sins Past, Sins Remembered and Spider-Man Presents; American Son and Gabriel has very different hair from Norman and Harry. Another set of clues I mentioned where how in a previous issue (I believe it was issue 24 or 25) We see Kindred lift his jacket sleeve and a bunch of spiders and rats come out of a hole in his arm which could be a call back to the A Child Within story where Peter had to deal with both Harry and Vermin. Fast forward to the previews of this issue which showed Kindred setting up a dinner table which could be a call back to Spectacular Spider-Man 189. Lastly, all the references to Harry's death in Spectacular Spider-Man 200.

    A few reasons why it wouldn't have been Gabriel were because we saw Gabriel very much alive and "normal" in all 3 stories he appeared. If Gabriel was the "hell spawn" Kindred, he would have already known Peter was not his father, he would have also known that Norman was the Green Goblin and there would have been on need for Gabriel to take the Goblin formula (which grove him insane) or the need for the American Son armor.

  6. #36
    Incredible Member stillanerd's Avatar
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    Okay, so unless it's proven otherwise, the simplest explanation is this. Harry Osborn really did die in Spectacular Spider-Man #200--which Nick Spencer reminded us about twice during "Sins Rising"--and that the Harry Osborn we've seen since Brand New Day is a clone with altered memories commissioned by Norman Osborn shortly after Harry died. And if that's the case, this could also be the reason why Harry, as Kindred, has regressed into full-blown bad guy mode. Because in his mind, wracked by the tortures of Hell, has now "convinced" him that everything Peter said to him as Harry lay dying was "all lies," that Peter "never really cared about him at all," because if he did, he never would've accepted an "impostor" as the real deal. He would've tried harder to save him in the first place. More "proof" that the people Peter really hurts are the ones he "supposedly" tries to protect.

    So yeah, One More Day has nothing to do with this. Kindred isn't a pre-OMD Harry. Because remember, Harry died, then Mysterio went into Kindred's "service" shortly after he committed suicide, and Kindred was the one who brought him back--all of which happened before One More Day took place.

    Of course, the real question I have is this: If Julia Carpenter knew that, by "cleansing" Norman Osborn that the Sin-Eater would unknowingly release all the sin demons he "cleansed" from the other villains and that those demon would possess the Order of the Spiders as according to Kindred's plan...then why in the hell did Julia try convincing Spider-Man to let Sin-Eater cleanse Norman Osborn?! Once again, Julia, you have proven yourself to be the world's worst psychic.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The current theory and general indication I think, is that BND-Harry, the Harry you've read in the last 10 years isn't the actual Harry Osborn.

    If true that's gonna be a bummer coz it undermines some great stories like "American Son" and the Red Goblin stuff. Hope Spencer lands this in a way the Harry we've known is still his own character and Kindred is this monstrous iteration of the character through shenanigans linked to OMD.

  8. #38
    Incredible Member Spidey_62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yvonmukluk View Post
    I mean...

    Kindred clearly talked as if he'd died in earlier issues, complete with flashbacks to his death, and Harry's unexplained recovery happened at the exact same time as the marriage ended. This run started with a flashback to Sensational Spider-Man Annual, they're putting out a reprint of The Wedding...I'm pretty sure Harry/Kindred remembers being at that wedding, even if nobody else does. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out he's got some opinions on that whole matter...
    Yeah, still not ruling out some sort of One More Day tie. Especially after this issue explicitly calling out making a deal with the devil again, I don't think it's a coincidence given the subject matter, Kindred's origins, and this being the start of a big Kindred story.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingkalamari View Post
    If true that's gonna be a bummer coz it undermines some great stories like "American Son" and the Red Goblin stuff.
    A) American Son is not universally regarded as a great story.

    B) Nobody liked the Osborn hillbilly family stuff in Go Down Swinging, it was quite extraneous to the actual plot of "Norman has the Carnage Suit and relearns Peter's identity". I mean Emily Osborn was alive all along...what was that all about?

  10. #40
    Fantastic Member Dzika_Sowa's Avatar
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    So:
    - Harry Dies in Spectacular 200
    - Mysterio commits suicide in that Daredevil story
    - Mysterio gets resurrected as an emissary of hell (heh )
    - OMD happens
    - Harry is suddenly alive and well, thanks to Norman and Mysterio's shenanigans.

    Am I mistaken?

  11. #41
    Incredible Member Spidey_62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzika_Sowa View Post
    So:
    - Harry Dies in Spectacular 200
    - Mysterio commits suicide in that Daredevil story
    - Mysterio gets resurrected as an emissary of hell (heh )
    - OMD happens
    - Harry is suddenly alive and well, thanks to Norman and Mysterio's shenanigans.

    Am I mistaken?
    Going by the timeline of the BND retcon, Norman briefly returned from Europe planning the clone saga to pay off Mysterio shortly after Harry died to replace the corpse with a body double. I'm going to assume that Harry in hell knew about all this and is why he ropes Mysterio into the whole thing after Mysterio dies in the late 90s.

  12. #42
    BANNED WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That's real life spoilers, my dude.

    Congratulations, best wishes, hope you make it to Church in time, or since this is Spider-Man, City Hall/Shea Stadium. My advice avoid bricks thrown from schlubby guys from street level to roof.

    My advice don't bother with comics so much in that time. We'll all be good and solicitous.
    Thanks, Jack! I very much appreciate it. And yes; I'll avoid bricks!

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzika_Sowa View Post
    So:
    - Harry Dies in Spectacular 200
    - Mysterio commits suicide in that Daredevil story
    - Mysterio gets resurrected as an emissary of hell (heh )
    - OMD happens
    - Harry is suddenly alive and well, thanks to Norman and Mysterio's shenanigans.

    Am I mistaken?
    Nope, that timeline is right. Harry shows up in the epilogue at the end of the last issue of OMD. And there was a big confusion/debate among fans about whether he came back to life because of the Mephisto deal or not and Quesada as is his wont (i.e. being sloppy and careless about continuity, i.e. not doing his job) gave words to that effect. But in the course of Brand New Day, the writers supplied an explanation for Harry's resurrection that, on the face of it, didn't rely on the Mephisto deal as an explanation.

    This however came at a price. The new explanation meant that the events of Spectacular Spider-Man #200 was some kind of illusion or trick, it reset Harry into a version of the character that existed in the early-to-mid 80s, i.e. background hanger on and walking furniture, and they went with that even if it ultimately led to a dead end.

    What Spencer is set to do is offer an actual resurrection story. What if Harry died in SSM#200, came back to life and started haunting the scene now? So that means the emotional stakes of SSM#200 are back on the table after being undone by BND. Now where will this go who knows? Does this Harry remember the marriage? Is he an exception to Mephisto's meddling? Who knows?

    This is a good example of the ultimate cost of retcons. It ruins the emotional impact and resonance of stuff. You bring Harry back but the most uninteresting version of him, you then retcon back and return the best version available.

  14. #44
    Fantastic Member Dzika_Sowa's Avatar
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    Ahh, so the body switch took place shortly after Harry's death. That makes more sense.

    Yet, in order to torture Mysterio in Hell, Harry had to die first. So this living Harry must be a clone of sorts...

  15. #45
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey_62 View Post
    Yeah, for those reasons I'm on board with seeing where the identity reveal leads to as it has a lot of potential. I still haven't seen why it was necessary to bring Harry back in OMD, as it just sort of invalidated a classic story because they wanted him around again. It's another thing that mucks up the overall picture of the world's believability when there's pretty much no consequence for having Harry back and doing the gymnastics to justify it as easy as possible in Mind on Fire. I've seen a lot of angry fans elsewhere complaining how obvious it was, but is it bad it just ended up making sense lmao? It's a bit of missing the forest by looking at the tree imo, the road doesn't just stop now that we simply officially know who it is.
    We'll see how much sense it makes after the situation with living Harry is explained, because that one is a big deal and can't just be ignored.

    I'd like to highlight the first story arc again having Peter split into two beings with each representing far different extremes of himself, so I think it's pretty likely the main villain of the run also is somebody who is sort of split so to speak.
    While living Harry didn't show up in Spencer's run yet, he was more foccused on the future in previous runs, Kindred Harry is foccused on the past, in a way that could be representing Harry's two different extremes.

    Same thing sorta happened with Spencer putting Kraven back in the grave but still having another Kraven around for future stories.
    Honestly think that one is kinda lame, Kraven's clone just looks exactly like the previous one, that's kind of a meh way to kill the original while having what is basically the same guy still around, but then again, Marvel did try to replace Kraven with others and, didn't really work... Although Ana was the most interesting one, she didn't get much focus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I know, I am trying to rack my brains trying to figure out how many there are. I am sure there are instances. Legacy characters (heroes and villains) becoming popular and established in new identities are quite rare in general. Nightwing is the big one but not many aside from that.
    On the hero side we kinda have some few, like Stephanie Brown going from Batgirl to Spoiler, or Donna going from Wonder Girl to, whatever the hell she is currently, but even then it's hard to count cases like those, sure, they got a new name and all, but their characters and roles are largely the same, while Nightwing got his own thing after he dropped the Robin title... So there are really few cases like him.

    This story now establishes Harry as a major league villain, before he was just a putz who was Norman's failson. He is now finally ascended to Peter's Two-Face and Hush, his good friend turned bad, which they never entirely succeeded at before.
    I'm honestly wondering why he took so damn long to act though, Kindred kept vaguely saying that he was waiting for the pieces to fall into place, however, this issue showed that all he needed was resurrect Carter with that power steal (Which now that I think of it, it's a lot like Regent, only way more interesting), and then get rid of Carter to be able to use this power himself... But I can imagine why he waited this long, since in the issues right before Sins Rising, we had the Lifeline Tablet's last pieces being found, and ASM#43 never really showed what happened to it, since we only saw Boomerang having the last piece, then it stopped showing up, so maybe it's gonna be used in Harry's plans.

    Clairvoyant is also worth considering, since last time we saw it we had Jamie using it in Chance's cassino, although Harry seems to be unrelated to that one... But wasn't one of the guys from college implied to be one of Green Goblin's followers? If that's not related to Harry, maybe it's something that'll be used for Norman.

    Speaking of Clairvoyant, why did Peter stop using it again? Would be pretty useful here, it's certainly more reliable than fucking Julia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I wonder if Nick Spencer will let Kindred live past his run (though that never has stopped a writer from bringing back a Spider-Villain before). If he is kept alive, I hope he fares better than Hush in the long game

    I will always have a soft spot for Harry as Green Goblin thank to DeMatteis and Buscema
    I think Kindred will have one of those vague fates, in case another writer wants to use him or not.

    On the other hand, he seems like a villain who can't really be used too much...

    Quote Originally Posted by stillanerd View Post
    Of course, the real question I have is this: If Julia Carpenter knew that, by "cleansing" Norman Osborn that the Sin-Eater would unknowingly release all the sin demons he "cleansed" from the other villains and that those demon would possess the Order of the Spiders as according to Kindred's plan...then why in the hell did Julia try convincing Spider-Man to let Sin-Eater cleanse Norman Osborn?! Once again, Julia, you have proven yourself to be the world's worst psychic.
    I was about to mention that lol.

    Honestly man, a lot of times in media we have a character replacing another and being a superior successor, Julia is the exact opposite, bitch has shown to be even worse as a Madame Web than Cassandra, and Cassandra was meh too.

    She does mention in ASM#48 that the outcome of it all is "frustatingly unclear", so it's possible that as time went on, it became clearer, maybe at the moment Peter pushed Norman from the submarine, and even if that's the case, and it's worth considering this is a headcanon, then she's still incompetent by using her future visions as a crutch.

    Although, it's also worth keeping in mind that it's unclear how much difference Norman actually makes here, because it seems that Kindred is just using Sin Eater's main power and #50 did little to show that Norman being cleansed had any actual use outside of Harry's grudge, so it's possible that Norman being saved or not makes little difference and they all would end up possessed anyways.

    But what is also-also worth considering is that when Peter pushed Norman from the submarine, Julia said that he didn't make a different choice, and that it was gonna be bad anyways, so she just changed her mind from one moment to the next about whether or not Norman should be cured, which, again, can go back to that "She just saw that it happening sucks", but she's gonna look bad either way.

    So yeah, no matter what, Julia is a moron, and Cassandra myst be facepalming at seeing her incompetence once again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I mean Emily Osborn was alive all along...what was that all about?
    I considered that maybe this is something Slott added for a next writer, since he was leaving ASM and all, but so far Spencer didn't even hint at that, so that looks like just some lame plot twist for the sake of it, unless Spencer decides to use it after Kindred? Or even during it?
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 10-14-2020 at 02:24 PM.

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