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  1. #151
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Nah. Ultraboy there set it up himself. He created those things to force the situation.
    I still don't get how Teen Jon get to be labelled as Ultra-Boy, as if he wasn't a clear improvement over generic bubbly kid n°154453456487485 he was before...

  2. #152
    Astonishing Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I still don't get how Teen Jon get to be labelled as Ultra-Boy, as if he wasn't a clear improvement over generic bubbly kid n°154453456487485 he was before...
    Now he's OC Teen Protagonist forcefully shoved in basic Riverdale esk romance, with no personality, no charisma, no nothing just on the rack teen Clark with no clout or substance, quite the improvement! Him being Ultra-Boy from Earth 3 would be more interesting than anything Bendis has written in the last year in a half.
    Last edited by Journey; 10-19-2020 at 10:03 PM.

  3. #153
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I still don't get how Teen Jon get to be labelled as Ultra-Boy, as if he wasn't a clear improvement over generic bubbly kid n°154453456487485 he was before...
    Last time there was a "generic bubbly kid" in such a role, was Dick Grayson Robin.

    Now Jon is just another generic teen hero, whose generic romance is the first girl "his age" he comes across, and Clark's blandest traits were copy/pasted onto him and called "that's totes awesome!", because somehow it made it past the editor's office.

    Then again, a lot of stupid stuff happened under DiDio, so, yeah. More par for the course I suppose.

  4. #154
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    As if Jon had had a personality before. He was a walking cliché who was detrimental to almost all the characters surrounding him (Damian, Superman, even Lois to an extent) ! Him becoming a teen so fast and proving his strength of character by remaining true to what his father had taught him and managing to remain relatively calm and collected even in the 31st century (relatively because as soon as he is alone, he's prone to go off-rails such as darting back to the past just to show his present's friend how awesome the future is, for instance).

    Kid Jon was a boring character with boring adventures which had no bearing or impact on him at all. No matter what he lived through, he was always unchanged and unfazed by anything. If you found this super generic depiction of a kid hero to your liking, more power to you, but I've seen it thousands of times, so it was really nothing to write home about back then.

  5. #155
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I still don't get how Teen Jon get to be labelled as Ultra-Boy, as if he wasn't a clear improvement over generic bubbly kid n°154453456487485 he was before...
    Yeah! I wouldn't call jon ultra boy. But, the kid seriously lacks a personality now. He is just teen version of clark. I am sure other writers can tell good jon story with teen version. It's just Bendis doesn't get jon's voice right for me so far. It's boring and soap opera-ish. A bit more fun, adventure and comedy would be appreciated. A bit of dickishness too.Supercharacters are a bullies. That's just how they roll.

    The character should be alot more goofy, expressive and energetic.

    A bit more "i solemnly swear i am upto no good".

    Also, we never got to see jon getting over his innocence or naivety regarding superheroes. Jon never truly explored dcu as kid with powers fully.
    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    As if Jon had had a personality before. He was a walking cliché who was detrimental to almost all the characters surrounding him (Damian, Superman, even Lois to an extent) ! Him becoming a teen so fast and proving his strength of character by remaining true to what his father had taught him and managing to remain relatively calm and collected even in the 31st century (relatively because as soon as he is alone, he's prone to go off-rails such as darting back to the past just to show his present's friend how awesome the future is, for instance).

    Kid Jon was a boring character with boring adventures which had no bearing or impact on him at all. No matter what he lived through, he was always unchanged and unfazed by anything. If you found this super generic depiction of a kid hero to your liking, more power to you, but I've seen it thousands of times, so it was really nothing to write home about back then.
    You call kid jon generic. Yet, teen jon isn't?The character says " geeh! Golly! Great scott!Ma! Pa! ". His love interest is another telepath. Jon still does the same shitck. It's just he does in clark like manner and in a boring way.

    You do realise you just contradicted yourself. You are saying he was unchanged and unfazed through out his adventures and problems he faced on his journey to become a teen character. Yet, you complain jon never changed or grew when he was a kid(as if that were true. Even if it was, flat arc characters are awesome) ? Your problem is jon punched damian. That's it. Get over it.Batcharacters have been booting supercharacters for three decades now.As if jon is the reason lois and clark were written like they are. Lois hasn't been a cynical journalist since forever and has been consistently Clark's cheerleader or female clark. As for damian, what goes around comes around. The character put others through similar nonsense.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 10-19-2020 at 11:39 PM.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Yeah! I wouldn't call jon ultra boy. But, the kid seriously lacks a personality now. He is just teen version of clark. I am sure other writers can tell good jon story with teen version. It's just Bendis doesn't get jon's voice right for me so far. It's boring and soap opera-ish. A bit more fun, adventure and comedy would be appreciated. A bit of dickishness too.Supercharacters are a bullies. That's just how they roll.
    Teen versions of Superman can be interesting, it's a staple for the Super books. I'm sorry, what? No, the Super family aren't dicks or bullies. Those are the sorts off people who tick them off and are villains. They're not the Luthor's.

    Edit: The Super Family aren't bullies, they're bully hunters. That's why they hate villains like Lex and Zod so much, they abuse their power to crush people beneath them.


    The character should be alot more goofy, expressive and energetic.

    A bit more "i solemnly swear i am upto no good".

    Also, we never got to see jon getting over his innocence or naivety regarding superheroes. Jon never truly explored dcu as kid with powers fully.
    What's great about comics is that they can do that later on, time means nothing to a comic book.

    You call kid jon generic. Yet, teen jon isn't?The character says " geeh! Golly! Great scott!Ma! Pa! ". His love interest is another telepath. Jon still does the same shitck. It's just he does in clark like manner and in a boring way.
    Jon's a kid still finding his niche ands right now emulating the Greatest Hero on Earth, his father, is going to have an effect on his attitude. Even Damien ended up being incredibly impacted by Bruce. People have types. That's subjective. Jon's not an edgy character.

    You do realise you just contradicted yourself. You are saying he was unchanged and unfazed through out his adventures and problems he faced on his journey to become a teen character. Yet, you complain jon never changed or grew when he was a kid(as if that were true. Even if it was, flat arc characters are awesome) ? Your problem is jon punched damian. That's it. Get over it.Batcharacters have been booting supercharacters for three decades now.As if jon is the reason lois and clark were written like they are. Lois hasn't been a cynical journalist since forever and has been consistently Clark's cheerleader or female clark. As for damian, what goes around comes around. The character put others through similar nonsense.
    Physical abuse is not what Superman is supposed to represent, and Jon's following in his footsteps. The Bat Family don't spend their time playing Fight Club with each other whenever they get angry at each other. When things do get like that, it's the exception and it's when the Family is falling apart because Bruce is back to alienating everyone again. Being a cynical journalist is not comparable to committing physical abuse on vulnerable people. Jon's meant to be better than that. If that was true a villain would have decapitated Damian, that's what he did the first time out as a "super-hero." The only reason Batman didn't throw him in jail right then and there is because he's a messed up kid who Talia used to manipulate him with.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 10-20-2020 at 04:16 AM.

  7. #157
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    That's me. From the way this sounds (because, obviously, I haven't read it and don't know details), this isn't a "screwup" - it's so far beyond that. It's like calling Superman's rise to dictatorship in Justice Lords "a screwup" because there some good intentions about getting rid of crime at one point. Even if a person's intentions are good (or what they think are good), their actions can still be evil. There's "imperfection" and then there's "not worthy of being called a hero" and then there's "you do realize you're the bad guy, right?" And they do love to use Superman as the bad guy in AUs, and now it's Jon's turn, I guess.

    And don't even get me started on how bad the Kryptonians (Amazons, Atlantians, Thanagarians, Guardians) have been made over the decades. Some, like the Kryptonians and Amazons are far less consistently so, but still, given recent publication history with the Kryptonians, the idea anyone could think of them as perfect is way more than a stretch.
    It’s more like Batman 666 (which feels more and more deliberate given Morrison’s involvement). Damian Batman isn’t evil; but he’s not really good either. He wants to follow in his father and Dick’s footsteps but by his own admission can’t live up to them. So he cheats. He sells his soul to the devil for immortality. He kills. He booby traps all of Gotham.

    Jon to me feels very much in that same vein. He’s not evil. He’s not a dictator. He may still adhere to his dad no kill rules even. But when your Superman you can’t afford to screw up ever , and it seems like unfortunately Jon has. And you know what? Is Jon bottling the City truly that much different from Clark executing the three Kryptonians during Byrne’s run? Was that not Clark crossing the line in a way Superman shouldn’t (some would argue ‘no’ probably, but that’s where the fun of debating comes from). Like this feels very much a “Superman” problem and I expect Jon will probably end up pulling through and unbottling them, perhaps doing what Clark never could for Kandor. But we’ll see.

  8. #158
    Astonishing Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    As if Jon had had a personality before. He was a walking cliché who was detrimental to almost all the characters surrounding him (Damian, Superman, even Lois to an extent) ! Him becoming a teen so fast and proving his strength of character by remaining true to what his father had taught him and managing to remain relatively calm and collected even in the 31st century (relatively because as soon as he is alone, he's prone to go off-rails such as darting back to the past just to show his present's friend how awesome the future is, for instance).

    Kid Jon was a boring character with boring adventures which had no bearing or impact on him at all. No matter what he lived through, he was always unchanged and unfazed by anything. If you found this super generic depiction of a kid hero to your liking, more power to you, but I've seen it thousands of times, so it was really nothing to write home about back then.
    Literally your whole last paragraph describes the problem of Teen Jon, went through so much BS according to Bendis crack writing, and yet he has nothing to show for it nothing at all, he's not even the "emo" I've suffered cliche which at least would be something, he's just there. He's literaly the epitome of basic teen superhero protagonist and that's not interesting it's cheap and boring.

  9. #159
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    Edit: The Super Family aren't bullies, they're bully hunters. That's why they hate villains like Lex and Zod so much, they abuse their power to crush people beneath them.
    They use violence. They are bully their bullies, every single version of them. That makes them bullies themselves. You just proved my point. Everything else is not worth a reply. Jon has been consistently boring since tomasi left. Nope! Tomasi nor jurgens ever wrote jon like that. He ain't postcrisis superman. Jon was innocent. He wasn't a stereotypical naive farmboy .I am not looking for a perfect moral platitude giving boring nonsense. I don't want better. I want entertaining. I want some adventure and action. Something to smile about and something to laugh about.Nothing i said is about being edgy. You desperately want me as your opponent for some reason because i have defended snyder movies. Guess what? I have read silverage comics and enjoyed them. For the thousandth time, i am a freaking anime/manga/old pulp fiction fan. Get it.i have or am reading one piece,hxh,fmab,... Etc shonens(superman is clearly for young boys) . I don't enjoy characters that aren't entertaining first.You probably think shonen battle series are edgy.Heck! Captain marvel/thunder is the most non edgy character out there. He is awesome. Especially, the old books. I do believe when adapting superman they need to honor the creators to a degree.That means, fake clark kent with glasses persona going "geeh! Golly! Ma! Pa!" becoming the real guy goes directly against the very basic theme of superman. He is supposed to tear off mundanity,not embrace it.It ain't entertaining. It's not even cute.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 10-20-2020 at 08:05 AM.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    They use violence. They are bully their bullies, every single version of them. That makes them bullies themselves. You just proved my point. Everything else is not worth a reply. Jon has been consistently boring since tomasi left. Nope! Tomasi nor jurgens ever wrote jon like that. He ain't postcrisis superman. Jon was innocent. He wasn't a stereotypical naive farmboy .I am not looking for a perfect moral platitude giving boring nonsense. I don't want better. I want entertaining. I want some adventure and action. Something to smile about and something to laugh about.Nothing i said is about being edgy. You desperately want me as your opponent for some reason because i have defended snyder movies. Guess what? I have read silverage comics and enjoyed them. For the thousandth time, i am a freaking anime/manga/old pulp fiction fan. Get it.i have or am reading one piece,hxh,fmab,... Etc shonens(superman is clearly for young boys) . I don't enjoy characters that aren't entertaining first.You probably think shonen battle series are edgy.Heck! Captain marvel/thunder is the most non edgy character out there. He is awesome. Especially, the old books.But, i am an idealist. I do believe when adapting superman we need to honor the creators to a degree.That mean, fake clark kent with glasses persona going "geeh! Golly! Ma! Pa!" becoming the real guy goes directly against the very basic theme of superman. He is supposed to tear off mundanity,not embrace it.
    I think you’re confusing Superman for Justice Lord!Superman.

  11. #161
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I think you’re confusing Superman for Justice Lord!Superman.
    No, i think people have confused fake clark kent persona with real one. What part of entertaining is justice lord superman? He is another boring jobber for batman.The character ain't even a good villain. If use of word "violence" makes you think of justice lord superman. What do you call punching people?
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 10-20-2020 at 08:35 AM.

  12. #162
    Astonishing Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    I was thinking, and the only thing I dislike about the Superman Worlds at War, is that it isn't a long epic arc on the main tittles.

  13. #163
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    I wonder if Draaga is making a comeback in this exile. That would be awesome.

  14. #164
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    I have read the comments about Jon's future mistake, and I think those comments show that he is a mini clark, just like Superman, Jon is not allowed to fail, the reader automatically turns him into a villain, Superman can resist that pressure because he has 80 years of history, but Jon is a new character, if he is expected to be perfect, he will fail and eventually disappear.

  15. #165
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NaVi View Post
    I have read the comments about Jon's future mistake, and I think those comments show that he is a mini clark, just like Superman, Jon is not allowed to fail, the reader automatically turns him into a villain, Superman can resist that pressure because he has 80 years of history, but Jon is a new character, if he is expected to be perfect, he will fail and eventually disappear.
    Forgive me, but I want to see heroes being heroic. 99.9% of the time. Occasionally stumble but never fall. This is not exclusive to Superman or the Super Family. I don't enjoy a lot of comics anymore because the "heroes" just keep doing horrible things (often during events) to the point I don't think they deserve the title "hero" anymore. I want to read about heroes. Maybe this won't be the start of that for Jon, but frankly, given the history of comic book characters in recent decades, and how Superman in particular gets sent all authoritarian to make him a bad guy in various AUs, I'm not optimistic. Hopefully I'll be wrong. But expecting the worst at least means I won't be too disappointed.

    Everyone has different wants out of their superhero comics - for me, the primary appeal in superheroes is seeing good triumph over evil. But "simplistic" stories like that just aren't the in thing, anymore.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 10-20-2020 at 11:40 AM.

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