Superman Future State

[Steel Inquisitor]

He fought crime and Crime lost.

pretty sure some heroes kill.
Pretty sure Batman works with heroes who have killed. Is WW a bully?
Pretty sure lots of Batfamily have killed . From Dick Grayson to Alfred to Cass to Jason to Kate. Batman never put em in Jail
Pretty sure Bruce gave Jay the kill go ahead just keep it out of Gotham.

I don't want Jon killing nor do I want him edgy/brutal but I do want his methods/version of the Man of Steel to be recognisably different from his father's [eg Kon's different from Clark]

Incidentally I enjoyed Snyder's take in MOS

He committed murder because this was the period of his life where he was raised brutally by Talia in the League of Assassins. That's not "fighting crime" anymore than Ra's is a hero in the Batman books. There's a reason he got chewed out by everyone about that and Bruce spent time toning down his tactics, something which he's had problems before with vigilantes like Huntress and Red Hood since not killing is a big part of the Bat Family code. They're super-heroes, not the Punisher.

Many of them are on the outs with Batman because of it, including Wonder Woman. And when she does kill it's a last resort she doesn't revel in it, Damian just kills people because he was raised by monsters and unlike Cassandra Cain he bought into the life. No.
Circumstances, please.
Can you explain what the jay thing was about? I don't know anything about that.

How?

I didn't.

[manwhohaseverything]

They're super-heroes, not the Punisher.

punisher isn't the only superhero that kills.Is'nt there a samurai supehero? Normally, samurai's kill. There is also a knight superhero . Pretty sure, knights kill as well.shining knight seems to have taken life. Anyways, this entire episode was awesome. Too bad timm, doesn't do this with actual superman character .

Killing by superheroes =/=punisher.

[Steel Inquisitor]

punisher isn't the only superhero that kills.Is'nt there a samurai supehero? Normally, samurai's kill. There is also a knight superhero . Pretty sure, knights kill as well.shining knight seems to have taken life. Anyways, this entire episode was awesome. Too bad timm, doesn't do this with actual superman character .

Killing by superheroes =/=punisher.

The main reason people hate Punisher is because how he acts: which is using murder as the only solution to fighting crime. This was how Damien began as a "super-hero" -which he learnt from his mother Talia al Ghul and the League of Shadows. I'm sure you know who they are. The whole point of that Justice League episode was for less heroes and civilians to stand up to Eiling, to show how he's a hypocrite
- the message would be more difficult to get across with a powerful super-hero fighting Eiling. Super-heroes in the DCAU don't kill people, it's not the DCEU. Sure there are other DC super-heroes who kill people, but what Damien was doing isn't in the category of Wonder Woman who kills as a last resort Damien kills because he thinks all criminals need to die. I implore you to read Batman and Son. I'm curious why you like the Timm verse since its heroes, and Superman, are the opposite of how you want Superman to act in our discussions. I've asked before and gotten no answer.

[Agent Z]

No kill rule serves other purposes though, such as why Batman and Superman don’t just murder their entire Rogues Gallery. Letting them kill just means even more asspulls for why Joker and Lex don’t get put down, because if they did get killed they’d be back in a year’s time.

The thing to understand is if Batman and Superman killed their Rogues, all that would change is instead of Arkham and Stryker’s having revolving doors, Hell itself would get a revolving door. Death would become even more meaningless than it already is.

If they're not going to kill them, then they should stop writing them like monsters whose crimes would make real world serial killer and spree murderers vomit. Most superheroes from DC and many from Marvel have a no kill rule but don't generally have stories that revolve around it as often as Superman and Batman and don't have villains who end up raising the question as often without a satisfactory answer. For example, the closest things Spider-Man has to a Joker equivalent are Carnage and Norman Osborn and those two have been shown to be extremely difficult to kill by the nature of their powers to even if Peter decided he wanted them dead he probably wouldn't be able to do it. Unlike Batman, most of Peter's rogues gallery are simple crooks who just want money and aren't killing for pleasure. Some of them have even turned good such as Prowler and Rocket Racer. Peter's Luthor equivalent Norman is far more powerful than him unlike with the dynamic between Superman and Luthor where Superman is the top dog and only pretends not to be for Luthor's sake.

[Korath]

If they're not going to kill them, then they should stop writing them like monsters whose crimes would make real world serial killer and spree murderers vomit. Most superheroes from DC and many from Marvel have a no kill rule but don't generally have stories that revolve around it as often as Superman and Batman and don't have villains who end up raising the question as often without a satisfactory answer. For example, the closest things Spider-Man has to a Joker equivalent are Carnage and Norman Osborn and those two have been shown to be extremely difficult to kill by the nature of their powers to even if Peter decided he wanted them dead he probably wouldn't be able to do it. Unlike Batman, most of Peter's rogues gallery simple crooks who just want money and aren't killing for pleasure. Some of them have even turned good such as Prowler and Rocket Racer.

That's definitively a problem.

And it wouldn't prevent them from creating quite interesting stories. The premises sown in yesterday's Punchline book were excellent to cement her as a true danger without the need to have all go all rampage on the city. She's a lot more dangerous that way, and punching her in the face won't help.

[manwhohaseverything]

The main reason people hate Punisher is because how he acts: which is using murder as the only solution to fighting crime. This was how Damien began as a "super-hero" -which he learnt from his mother Talia al Ghul and the League of Shadows. I'm sure you know who they are. The whole point of that Justice League episode was for less heroes and civilians to stand up to Eiling, to show how he's a hypocrite
- the message would be more difficult to get across with a powerful super-hero fighting Eiling. Super-heroes in the DCAU don't kill people, it's not the DCEU. Sure there are other DC super-heroes who kill people, but what Damien was doing isn't in the category of Wonder Woman who kills as a last resort Damien kills because he thinks all criminals need to die. I implore you to read Batman and Son. I'm curious why you like the Timm verse since its heroes, and Superman, are the opposite of how you want Superman to act in our discussions. I've asked before and gotten no answer.

Punisher hated by whom?I am sure the character has a fan based to survive. So what?damian was an assassin. Doesn't mean anything.assassins and disturbed people are no representations of heroes who have had to take life.just because some one is a conservative doesn't mean he has to be religious nut or Heck! Some race supremesict .Normal people could be put in a situation where they had to kill.As if I am gonna let myself be killed by joker.heck yeah!I would pull out a gun on him.

Dude!it's a kid show.ofcourse,the characters don't kill.but,there is implications.timm himself has said about how he used to get around certain things . Yeah!right,a knight that fought for Arthur doesn't kill nor a vigilante with guns.powerlevels are scalable and inconsequential. If they want Eling could be the overdog and superman the underdog if they write it accordingly.Moreover,people coming to superman's aid would have been more impact full as he is powerfull. And how do I want superheroes to act exactly? Your preconceived notions of my tastes is actually laughable and I do most of the time. I appreciate good in stories .what is this something kind of tribal nonsense where I have to like everything about anything?anyways,timm was mediocre to terrible with superman.Only new gods arc and certain aspects were good .he was better with street level characters in general .The batwanking was insufferable.

[PCN24454]

If they're not going to kill them, then they should stop writing them like monsters whose crimes would make real world serial killer and spree murderers vomit. Most superheroes from DC and many from Marvel have a no kill rule but don't generally have stories that revolve around it as often as Superman and Batman and don't have villains who end up raising the question as often without a satisfactory answer.

They're also not considered as vital as Superman and Batman stories are. It's an innate double standard that comes with A-tier characters.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Punisher hated by whom?I am sure the character has a fan based to survive. So what?damian was an assassin. Doesn't mean anything.assassins and disturbed people are no representations of heroes who have had to take life.just because some one is a conservative doesn't mean he has to be religious nut or Heck! Some race supremesict .Normal people could be put in a situation where they had to kill.As if I am gonna let myself be killed by joker.heck yeah!I would pull out a gun on him.

Characters can have fanbases and not be over by everyone in-universe or out of it. Sure it means something, it's a reason why Batman hates the League of Assassins, just because Damien was taught that didn't make him right. Don't move the goal posts, we're discussing if Damien's action were right, and they're not. We went over how him killing is not the same as a hero taking a life. This has nothing to do with being conservative. Comparing an ordinary people to Damien is missing the point, the Damien was fighting a random nobody super-villain called the Spook, the problem was if you were a bad guy he solved the "problem" with death.

Dude!it's a kid show.ofcourse,the characters don't kill.but,there is implications.timm himself has said about how he used to get around certain things . Yeah!right,a knight that fought for Arthur doesn't kill nor a vigilante with guns.powerlevels are scalable and inconsequential. If they want Eling could be the overdog and superman the underdog if they write it accordingly.Moreover,people coming to superman's aid would have been more impact full as he is powerfull. And how do I want superheroes to act exactly? Your preconceived notions of my tastes is actually laughable and I do most of the time. I appreciate good in stories .what is this something kind of tribal nonsense where I have to like everything about anything?anyways,timm was mediocre to terrible with superman.Only new gods arc and certain aspects were good .he was better with street level characters in general .The batwanking was insufferable.

But you haven't show any circumstances in the show that confirmed people were murdered by a super-hero. I disagree. You've been consistent in your tastes for how super-heroes act, for example - Black Adam's tone in the DCEU, despite the fact he's coming from being a villain who will wreck anyone from being obstacles to his goals, like Superman and the Justice Society. Everyone likes good stories, how they perceive "good quality" is subjective. However, there has been an inconsistency with the Timm cartoons, sometimes they're great other times they'd bad. I don't know where you're getting the tribalism from.

[manwhohaseverything]

Characters can have fanbases and not be over by everyone in-universe or out of it. Sure it means something, it's a reason why Batman hates the League of Assassins, just because Damien was taught that didn't make him right. Don't move the goal posts, we're discussing if Damien's action were right, and they're not. We went over how him killing is not the same as a hero taking a life. This has nothing to do with being conservative. Comparing an ordinary people to Damien is missing the point, the Damien was fighting a random nobody super-villain called the Spook, the problem was if you were a bad guy he solved the "problem" with death.



But you haven't show any circumstances in the show that confirmed people were murdered by a super-hero. I disagree. You've been consistent in your tastes for how super-heroes act, for example - Black Adam's tone in the DCEU, despite the fact he's coming from being a villain who will wreck anyone from being obstacles to his goals, like Superman and the Justice Society. Everyone likes good stories, how they perceive "good quality" is subjective. However, there has been an inconsistency with the Timm cartoons, sometimes they're great other times they'd bad. I don't know where you're getting the tribalism from.

Ummm! I was never talking about damian.Moreover,just because a character ain't for you doesn't mean it has to be. If jon and damian ain't for you. Let it be. They don't have to be.

Riiiight? Black adam was crying "why won't world accept me" and mopping around. Moreover, what did i say i liked? Just go to the dc movies thread and actually read. I never wanted a villainous superman. But, superman that's meant to be kickass charismatic debonair good guy like black adam who was plainly ripping of goldenage superman but in a anti-hero kind of way. There is actually, a page where black adam lifts a guy similar to superman in the old days in the promo. If you don't see it.


Here, @0:04, "I have a knack for destroying bullies" .

I want a superman that has some actual personality, than "geeh! Golly" nonsense.


Now this is more like zorro.

Moreover, dcau creatives themselves said they had no idea what to do with superman. They wrote the most bland character ever in superman. Superman's great arc in jl unlimited was not turning evil. Because, (forgive me) you seem to box people in anti and pro therefore tribalism .

[Steel Inquisitor]

Ummm! I was never talking about damian.Moreover,just because a character ain't for you doesn't mean it has to be. If jon ain't for you. Let it be.

We were just talking about what Damien did in Batman and Son, and we argued over him murdering the Spook as a thing which he should have done (he shouldn't). That's moving the goal posts, this ins't about if a character is meant to appeal to a fanbase, it's how they're achieved in the DCU itself and outside of it. Ignoring how people react to characters won't stop their opinions being valid. I'm a fan of Damien but he was a little psycho when he first showed up, this is part of his appeal and makes him polarising. Reflection on how a character is reacted to inside and outside comics helps with context, especially if the argument is about super-hero morality. It could also be argued that the League of Assassins are left wing, they're eco-terrorists who go to bizarre lengths to save the Earth.

Riiiight? Black adam was crying "why won't world accept me" and mopping around. Moreover, what did i say i liked? Just go to the dc movies thread and actually read. I never wanted a villainous superman. But, superman that's meant to be kickass charismatic debonair good guy like black adam who was plainly ripping of goldenage superman but in a anti-hero kind of way. There is actually, a page where black adam lifts a guy similar to superman in the old days in the promo. If you don't see it.You don't understand what kind superman i want. Because the only superman you


Here, @0:04, "I have a knack for destroying bullies" .

To Black Adam anyone who disagree with him is a "bully," what escapes him is that he's become what he hates. A common mistakes villains make and they are nor presenting him as a hero in that promo. In the movie DC threads you've been a big supporter of Snyder's Superman, which is fine the problem is that when the implications of his actions are complained about they're dismissed. But Black Adam isn't Golden Age Superman, he's Namor. Just because Adam is shown lifting someone like Superman did isn't what makes him identical to Superman in morality, Superman doesn't go around threatening to murder people if they get on his bad side. Well, Snyder's does, that's why he's controversial.

This is what Black Adam thinks of the Justice Society in the DCEU in that promo, which is omitted: "Well I'm going to teach them that the only beliefs I fight for are my own," after he explains they're fighting for truth and justice.

I want a superman that has some actual personality, than "geeh! Golly" nonsense.


Now this is zorro.

Moreover, dcau creatives themselves said they had no idea what to do with superman. They wrote the most bland character ever in superman. Superman's great arc in jl unlimited was not turning evil. Because, (forgive me) you seem to box people in anti and pro.

Superman does have a personality, you may not like it but not everyone has to be identical to Loki. And what Zorro does he remind you of?

Quotes, please. Did you watch Superman TAS? It's a spectacular cartoon and rendition for Superman in its own right. Even if what you said was true they made a good Superman.

[PCN24454]

Superman does have a personality, you may not like it but not everyone has to be identical to Loki. And what Zorro does he remind you of?

I'm completely done with douchey superheroes in general, so I personally prefer characterizations where he's actually polite.

[manwhohaseverything]

To Black Adam anyone who disagree with him is a "bully," what escapes him is that he's become what he hates. A common mistakes villains make and they are nor presenting him as a hero in that promo. In the movie DC threads you've been a big supporter of Snyder's Superman, which is fine the problem is that when the implications of his actions are complained about they're dismissed. But Black Adam isn't Golden Age Superman, he's Namor. Just because Adam is shown lifting someone like Superman did isn't what makes him identical to Superman in morality, Superman doesn't go around threatening to murder people if they get on his bad side. Well, Snyder's does, that's why he's controversial.

This is what Black Adam thinks of the Justice Society in the DCEU in that promo, which is omitted: "Well I'm going to teach them that the only beliefs I fight for are my own," after he explains they're fighting for truth and justice.



Superman does have a personality, you may not like it but not everyone has to be identical to Loki. And what Zorro does he remind you of?

Quotes, please. Did you watch Superman TAS? It's a spectacular cartoon and rendition for Superman in its own right. Even if what you said was true they made a good Superman.

Right,so???why should I care.I still don't care much about damian.I was talking about how you kept saying superheroes that kill=Punisher.

Are you playing dumb?I even provided you pics for reference. Who cares if black Adam says that about justice society or if he thinks that.superman ain't black adam.but his personality being similar is what matters.meaning, he has balls,he's got charm,he's got humour and he's confident as eff .That's the kinda personality and charisma superman should have.Are you serious?everything in the pages I posted is reminiscent of zorro and S/s ga superman.The dashing debonair that fights corrupt system for the little guy as an outlaw.

I'm completely done with douchey superheroes in general, so I personally prefer characterizations where he's actually polite.

As if anything I posted was douchey.Clark is polite to those that are nice.There is difference between that and fake clark Kent persona as superman.
I don't get it.what's am I not conveying properly here.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Right,so???why should I care.I still don't care much about damian.I was talking about how you kept saying superheroes that kill=Punisher.

Except Damien has been supported with your arguments, specially his tactics in murdering the Spook. Punisher's just another example of a super-hero with the tactics Damien had, they had the same mindset. They killed with a specific idea, they weren't super-heroes who happened to kill - that's moving the goal posts which had nothing to do with the circumstances Damien was in. Not all super-heroes who kill are the same.

Are you playing dumb?I even provided you pics for reference. Who cares if black Adam says that about justice society or if he thinks that.superman ain't black adam.but his personality being similar is what matters.meaning, he has balls,he's got charm,he's got humour and he's confident as eff .That's the kinda personality and charisma superman should have.Are you serious?everything in the pages I posted is reminiscent of zorro and S/s ga superman.The dashing debonair that fights corrupt system for the little guy as an outlaw.

A reference in imagery, were discussing morality. WE care because that shows the context, and Black Adam's been set up to be the bd guy in his movie, just like in the comics. Even when he's on the side of the angels Adam does things like take over countries by force and is ok with executing people. He'd be right at home in the Authority. No, he's not which is puzzling why you insist he should be with DCEU's Black Adam. Surely you can come up with other examples of super-heroes with those features, who aren't murderous dictators?

Which Zorro? You haven't explained with Zorro this remind you of and avoided this question more than once. Have you seen anything with Zorro?

As if anything I posted was douchey.Clark is polite to those that are nice.There is difference between that and fake clark Kent persona as superman.
I don't get it.what's am I not conveying properly here.

Black Adam's the douche, and so is Snyder's Superman. Clark Kent isn't fake and has been with the Superman mythos since Siegel and Shuster. We understand you, we just disagree with your opinion.

[manwhohaseverything]

Except Damien has been supported with your arguments, specially his tactics in murdering the Spook. Punisher's just another example of a super-hero with the tactics Damien had, they had the same mindset. They killed with a specific idea, they weren't super-heroes who happened to kill - that's moving the goal posts which had nothing to do with the circumstances Damien was in. Not all super-heroes who kill are the same.



A reference in imagery, were discussing morality. WE care because that shows the context, and Black Adam's been set up to be the bd guy in his movie, just like in the comics. Even when he's on the side of the angels Adam does things like take over countries by force and is ok with executing people. He'd be right at home in the Authority. No, he's not which is puzzling why you insist he should be with DCEU's Black Adam. Surely you can come up with other examples of super-heroes with those features, who aren't murderous dictators?

Which Zorro? You haven't explained with Zorro this remind you of and avoided this question more than once. Have you seen anything with Zorro?



Black Adam's the douche, and so is Snyder's Superman. Clark Kent isn't fake and has been with the Superman mythos since Siegel and Shuster. We understand you, we just disagree with your opinion.

If you can't stomach that people make tough choices. Then that's on you. I didn't move any goal posts. I said from the start. Your whole tactic is basically this, calling a Conservative a nazi. Plain and simple. Enjoy doing that. Hope it works out for ya.

Vigilante, shining knight, katana,green arrow, wonder woman, aquaman, captain america ... Etc the list is pretty long. Correction, you are discussing morality. I ain't, i am talking personality and kickass mentality of an action hero. Just because there is some deconstructionist take on the pulp goldenage superman like the authority, doesn't mean they are one and the same. That is a vision and take based on the goldenage superman. Just like byrne superman is another take on s&s superman or donner superman . That's like saying doctor manhattan is captain atom.You either don't get it Or simply want boyscout nice guy superman is playing the dumb person. That's fine.all the power to you. We can agree to disagree. I don't like a guy that's stick in the mud. Finally, the guy comes of fake with his preaching things like that.

Finally, I don't care if you care. Modern superheroes stories are all basically the same nonesense over and over again. Same dogma. "if superman kills joker, he becomes space hitler" . Forgive me, i find it to be bullshit. You can have your opinion. But, i firmly believe. The antiquited pre enlightenment religious dogma needs to be put to a rest. Grown up Jon kent being stuck with that kinda nonsense wouldn't be good.

Yeah! Yeah! You basically completely ignored action comics pages. Moreover, the movie ain't out yet so your idea of black adam being a douche is from your preconceived notions from comics.That might not be true when it comes to the movie. Snyder's superman being douche??? Yeah! I don't see it. The guy is perfectly polite. Heck! He doesn't even talk. I have said this superman ain't your notion of black adam. End of story. period. Superman is more zorro, doc savage, tarzan, hugo danner and harold Lloyd. If that's too edgy for you then too bad. But, that's the way i like him. Moreover, clark persona is fake. Byrne made it real and superman the act.Doesn't mean originally it wasn't "disguised as mild mannered reporter clark kent" . Good day.

[Last Son of Krypton]

nevermind.