Zuko vs Palpatine

[Cody]

The way I see it the deflecting blaster bolts isn't so much a speed thing as a mental thing. Jedi don't see the bolts coming and then move to block them. How fast blaster bolts travel isn't even a factor in this.
They don't even look. They in fact train this when being completely blinded.
They completely rely on the information the Force gives them about the universe and where in the next couple of seconds blaster bolts will be incoming. And it simply doesn't work very well or at all against an opponent who can 'cloud the Force' or whatever they called it.

You post that pic, but you need to remember that just moments before having that helmet put on him he was blocking the bolts just fine on reflex alone as he did not know force precog just yet.

And having Precog can only get you so far. For example, could a jedi block bullets shot from a modern gun? **** no, why? They are way too fast. In order to deflect the blaster bolts coming at this they would need to have the reaction time in order to move to deflect the bolts coming their way. Knowing when something is heading your way is fine and dandy. But when you are just getting it in that moment, you still need to reflex's to react to the incoming attack.

Also that scene in the pic posted? That wasn't force precog. IIRC that was Luke learning how to use force Sense. To see without using his eyes like what the Miraluka do. Obi says as much while teaching Luke. That the eyes can deceive and that a Jedi can see through the force(an impressive learning feat on Luke's part however as he picked it up in a matter of seconds).

[Hiromi]

You post that pic, but you need to remember that just moments before having that helmet put on him he was blocking the bolts just fine on reflex alone as he did not know force precog just yet.

That's overselling it a bit, he got one and then it pegged him, and then Han Solo made fun of him, and then he put the helmet on

here's the whole scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X69NCLxwLEY

[Totoro Man]

A nifty trick, to be sure, but I'm skeptical of Zuko's ability to do that with full-power blasts.

but this is fire we're talking about. why would they need to be full-power blasts? if he's busting out three or four shots a second and cracking their defenses all the fire has to do is connect. it's easier for Zuko to hit the legs, arms, body, and face with tons of rapid-fire small shots and get the fire started. since jedi couldn't block multiple sustained blaster bolts from one direction that weren't even as fast or accurate as Zuko can shoot this seems like a perfectly viable path to victory.

fire naturally tends to grow and spread when given both air and a fuel source. give the standard issue of long flowing robes for jedi and sith-- this shouldn't be too difficult.

(personally, I think Zuko's normal full-power blasts would be easier to dodge since he can't shoot them as quickly, their larger, and easier to see. using multiple small projectiles would be the best way for him to break through)

[Cody]

That's overselling it a bit, he got one and then it pegged him, and then Han Solo made fun of him, and then he put the helmet on

here's the whole scene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X69NCLxwLEY

Well he blocked one. Could have sworn he blocked more than that prior to the helmet however.

since jedi couldn't block multiple sustained blaster bolts from one direction that weren't even as fast or accurate as Zuko can shoot this seems like a perfectly viable path to victory.

What? Yes they can. They repeatedly shown to be capable of doing just that. Kit, Anakin, Obi-wan, Mace, a **** ton of other Jedi during ep2 all did just that. Luke was doing it in ep6 and Yoda was doing it in ep3. And blaster bolts move far faster than balls of flame. Zuko has nice reflex's, but flame is flame. It doesn't move as fast a he does.

fire naturally tends to grow and spread when given both air and a fuel source. give the standard issue of long flowing robes for jedi and sith-- this shouldn't be too difficult.

They take their cloaks off if that happens and their robes aren't that long at all. They are quite form fitting for the most part. And the flame isn't even going to get that close thanks to force TK.

And you aren't exactly supposed to be taking sides in a rumble that you posted, otherwise it appears you intended on posting a stomp.

[Primetime Harder]

And you aren't exactly supposed to be taking sides in a rumble that you posted, otherwise it appears you intended on posting a stomp.

It does kind of seem that way, but to be fair, he did hand the match to Palpatine with the Senate Floor as the arena.

[Totoro Man]

It does kind of seem that way, but to be fair, he did hand the match to Palpatine with the Senate Floor as the arena.

yep, Zuko would get owned hardcore in the Senate. he would have a hard time of it in the Fire Nation Palace as well... but he could still win there with the homecourt advantage. his best bet is in the arena where Palpatine's options are most limited. I wouldn't be taking Zuko's side so much if there weren't so many people writing stuff like this:

"TK makes that irrelevant. A force wave would just "lol nope" it really. And that is Padawan ****."

force waves were seriously being argued as a counter for neutralizing fireballs in motion. the force has never been shown to block blaster bolts or flames before. it's been shown to work on solid objects and people.

maybe this wasn't a serious argument that lowly padawns could own Zuko in a fight-- but it's not too difficult to interpret it that way.

if the pro-Star Wars crowd didn't have such a persistent attitude of LOL-nope I wouldn't be providing so many counter-arguments in favor of Zuko to show that this is a valid rumble.

then people are automatically granting blaster bolts light speed (which has been disproven numerous times). when it's shown that they're not appreciately faster than arrows then the argument is made that blaster bolts have to be between arrows and musket shots. the truth is that blaster bolts move at the speed of Industrial Light & Magic. ;-) the blaster bolts in SW are not animated appreciably faster than the animated arrows in ATLA cartoons. you'd have to take out a stopwatch and clock them to prove anything.

when I provided evidence that when confronted with ACTUAL barrages of 10-20 shots from one direction most jedi crumble the evidence got ignored.

if the pro-Zuko crowd was required to provide proof of Zuko having speed and accuracy feats for the lighting of candles then where is the proof that jedi can no-sell an actual barrage of blaster bolts? is this because people don't feel like providing evidence or because it simply doesn't exist? more importantly, are these blaster bolt barrages anything like the speed, accuracy, and weight of fire Zuko has proven capable of dishing out?

do I have to remind people that I've argued against erroneous Zuko feats on this thread as well as erroneous jedi/sith feats? that's half of the reason I posted the candle-lighting video to begin with. to dismiss the wrongly attributed speed feat.

Zuko did not light up several hundred candles IIRC. he remotely lit perhaps 50 candles in a roughly 30-foot circle in the span of about 10 seconds from a range of 30-60 feet away from the circle. it's a pretty impressive feat for rapid fire, accurate fire-bending. it's also a faster sustained rate of fire and better accuracy feat than anything we've seen from the live action SW. for the sake of comparison, it would be comparable (or superior) to the sustained rate of blaster fire that was used to kill most of the supporting jedi characters at the end of Ep.III. I don't think it would be enough to kill Windi, Obi Wan, Yoda, Anakin, or Palpatine. but Zuko could probably defeat most jedi with firebending alone by simply overwhelming their defenses with dozens of fire blasts.

Palpatine has zero feats for blocking blaster bolts but I'm more than willing to grant him the basic ability. I've already said that I don't think the fire-bending blitz would be enough to kill Palpatine all by itself on page 4. my mistake was thinking that Cody still retained information from several pages ago and that I wouldn't have to repeat myself. Zuko can't finish Palpatine off with the bending blitz-- but he can use that as a good starting point. if he sets Palpatine's robes on fire, it forces Palpatine to disrobe. that creates openings for closing in with swords or laying on more bending attacks.

since everybody else has already provided Palpatine's best forms of attack it would be redundant for me to argue them as well. hence why it seems like I'm so strongly favoring one side of another.

my main, over-riding point here has been that Palpatine is NOT untouchable for Zuko. and Palpatine still has plenty of options for putting down Zuko. but the argument that he is somehow so far above Zuko that this isn't a fight is ignorning Zuko's demonstrated feats when compared to Papatine's cinematic feats. I think there would be a reasonable amount of back-and-forth attacks between both combatants. if the pro-Palpatine crowd could simply look at Palpatine's demonstrated feats in the movie and not fall back on novelizations, EU and CW feats and narrative hyperbole it's a pretty even match.

and this still doesn't preclude the possibility that they might end in a draw with both parties killiing each other. it could end with Palps killing Zuko with a force choke and Zuko killing Palpatine with firebending.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-NvFIK_beQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vMUj8bKr2E

besides, this rumble has given me the chance to rewatch a lot of fun old clips from ATLA and SW.

[Guy1]

Firebending!

[Cody]

force waves were seriously being argued as a counter for neutralizing fireballs in motion. the force has never been shown to block blaster bolts or flames before. it's been shown to work on solid objects and people.

It's a telekinetic push. There is no reason for it not to push aside fire. Vader was using force deflection btw to block Han solo's blaster bolts and Yoda does it to both absorb and redirect force lightning as does Dooku. But aside from that a telekinetic push can push aside all matter of objects away. Fire isn't going to be an exception just because you want it to be.

maybe this wasn't a serious argument that lowly padawns could own Zuko in a fight-- but it's not too difficult to interpret it that way.

It's to show that any force user would make his fire balls irrelevant.

if the pro-Star Wars crowd didn't have such a persistent attitude of LOL-nope I wouldn't be providing so many counter-arguments in favor of Zuko to show that this is a valid rumble.

This reasoning is poor. Zuko not having anything to remotely be a problem to Palpatine doesn't make me "pro star wars". It shows you have a problem with people arguing in Palpatines favour. This is the type of **** that makes me wonder if this was you attempting to create an intentional stomp. You providing any arguments at all further proves that.

then people are automatically granting blaster bolts light speed (which has been disproven numerous times).

Not once did I ever say this. Others have done a fine job refuting the one who did make this claim.

faster than arrows then the argument is made that blaster bolts have to be between arrows and musket shots. the truth is that blaster bolts move at the speed of Industrial Light & Magic. ;-) the blaster bolts in SW are not animated appreciably faster than the animated arrows in ATLA cartoons. you'd have to take out a stopwatch and clock them to prove anything.

"They don't move at the speed you said they do because I say so" is not a valid argument. Use evidence to prove your point.

I, on the other hand did do the research however and I will concede to this because someone actually DID calculate their speed from the movies: http://www.wired.com/2012/05/star-wars-blaster-speed/ which clocked the ground based blaster bolts to be moving at around 34.9 m/s(I myself always thought they moved around 50m/s tbh). The average arrow shot from longbows move at around 40-55m/s or so. Which is faster than I originally thought.

Humans in real life can actually catch arrows shot from a longbow if their reflex's are fast enough. It has been done before. Zuko does it far easier however showing a form of CBPH reflex's. Blocking or deflecting a blaster bolt isn't as impressive and a normal human could do so a lot easier. However, the guys Palpatine fights and kills deflect a barrage of blaster bolts coming their way. This also shows a form of CBPH reflex's. Meaning that there isn't really much of a gap between the two in terms of speed.

when I provided evidence that when confronted with ACTUAL barrages of 10-20 shots from one direction most jedi crumble the evidence got ignored.

Straight up lie. I addressed it and provided a counter argument. You have a tendancy to only skim through posts that you reply to anyway(as evident by the amount of stuff you ignore in a post you reply to) so why am I not surprised?

if the pro-Zuko crowd was required to provide proof of Zuko having speed and accuracy feats for the lighting of candles then where is the proof that jedi can no-sell an actual barrage of blaster bolts?

No selling an attack usually means that someone is tanking it. Deflecting it is something else and to claim they couldn't based on..nothing at all isn't a valid argument. Using TK to blast it away is also a valid argument. Actually try and prove they couldn't instead of going "they can't because I say so!". Not that you should be providing any arguments at all since you're the OP but nevertheless.

is this because people don't feel like providing evidence or because it simply doesn't exist?

This argument is only stuible for you. You have yet to provide any evidence for Zuko's side while I and others have been refering to scenes from the movies.

more importantly, are these blaster bolt barrages anything like the speed, accuracy, and weight of fire Zuko has proven capable of dishing out?

Fire has no weight to it. And it is nowhere near as fast as his reflex's. It's a fireball. You haven't even bothered to list any speed feats for the fire just Zuko. Yet you claim that the ones debating for Palpatine don't? Hypocrite.

Palpatine has zero feats for blocking blaster bolts but I'm more than willing to grant him the basic ability. I've already said that I don't think the fire-bending blitz would be enough to kill Palpatine all by itself on page 4. my mistake was thinking that Cody still retained information from several pages ago and that I wouldn't have to repeat myself. Zuko can't finish Palpatine off with the bending blitz-- but he can use that as a good starting point. if he sets Palpatine's robes on fire, it forces Palpatine to disrobe. that creates openings for closing in with swords or laying on more bending attacks.

This goes with the assumption that the fireballs move at the same speed as his reflex's. They have never shown to travel that fast at all. And tk is tk. It can blast away fire just fine.

since everybody else has already provided Palpatine's best forms of attack it would be redundant for me to argue them as well. hence why it seems like I'm so strongly favoring one side of another.

You shouldn't be defending either side at all. You're the OP. You list as many feats of both fighters that you can remember in the OP and don't argue for any of them later on in the topic. Otherwise it looks like you are trying to make an intentional stomp.

my main, over-riding point here has been that Palpatine is NOT untouchable for Zuko. and Palpatine still has plenty of options for putting down Zuko. but the argument that he is somehow so far above Zuko that this isn't a fight is ignorning Zuko's demonstrated feats when compared to Papatine's cinematic feats. I think there would be a reasonable amount of back-and-forth attacks between both combatants. if the pro-Palpatine crowd could simply look at Palpatine's demonstrated feats in the movie and not fall back on novelizations, EU and CW feats and narrative hyperbole it's a pretty even match.

Only a couple of people did this. Don't exaggerate what is there. People were at first using CW feats because disney elevated them to first level canon along with the movies. That stopped immediately when you said Palpatine could only use his movie feats.

[wjowski]

As for force waves protecting Palpatine from Zuko's fire, I'd suggest reading up on Harry Dresden vs The Firebomb-Trapped Shelter to see how well that'll work out for him. Blocking the fire won't save him from getting roasted.

[Cody]

As for force waves protecting Palpatine from Zuko's fire, I'd suggest reading up on Harry Dresden vs The Firebomb-Trapped Shelter to see how well that'll work out for him. Blocking the fire won't save him from getting roasted.

Yea unless you provide more specific details that doesn't mean a damn thing. Did it come from all directions? Or just one angle like Zuko's flames would? He survived it so it must have helped a great deal, and was it just a shield or a tk wave? Etc? You can't just post one vague scenario with no details behind it and expect it to hold any relevance here mate.

[wjowski]

Yea unless you provide more specific details that doesn't mean a damn thing. Did it come from all directions? Or just one angle like Zuko's flames would? He survived it so it must have helped a great deal, and was it just a shield or a tk wave? Etc? You can't just post one vague scenario with no details behind it and expect it to hold any relevance here mate.

...Do I really need to explain how radiant heat works?

[Estrecca]

...Do I really need to explain how radiant heat works?

Do we have to point to the Mustafar duel to explain that radiant heat doesn't seem to work particularly well against Force sensitives, unless they are down three limbs?

[Primetime Harder]

Yea unless you provide more specific details that doesn't mean a damn thing. Did it come from all directions? Or just one angle like Zuko's flames would? He survived it so it must have helped a great deal, and was it just a shield or a tk wave? Etc? You can't just post one vague scenario with no details behind it and expect it to hold any relevance here mate.

Allow me to provide some specifics: a vampire thrall holding a flamethrower projects a large stream of fire at Harry down a small, narrow hallway. Harry holds up a shield of magical force a few inches in front of him, but the radiant heat from the blast basically melts the hand he uses.

It's a different scenario entirely, if you ask me; the force wave would likely meet the fire blast a few dozen feet in front of the Emperor, and the wide open space of the arena would give the heat much more space into which to dissipate.

[Cody]

...Do I really need to explain how radiant heat works?

You really want to explain how radiant heat works when this debate involves a guy who is shooting fire from his limbs without ever getting harmed by it even though he can be burned by fire? You realize that stuff like radiant heat is damn near nonexistent in Avatar right? In that show; unless the flames actually touch you you're going to be just fine. So actually planning to use that as an argument isn't going to help you at all as by rights; both of them should be royally fucked by the flames Zuko puts out.

[Cody]

Allow me to provide some specifics: a vampire thrall holding a flamethrower projects a large stream of fire at Harry down a small, narrow hallway. Harry holds up a shield of magical force a few inches in front of him, but the radiant heat from the blast basically melts the hand he uses.

It's a different scenario entirely, if you ask me; the force wave would likely meet the fire blast a few dozen feet in front of the Emperor, and the wide open space of the arena would give the heat much more space into which to dissipate.

Thank you kindly mate. And I thought as much.