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  1. #166
    Fantastic Member Light of Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrustyKid View Post
    Wouldn't go that far. Damian has been propped up before and made others look like fodder. Great example being 'Robin War' where he took out Jason in battle in a couple moves, and then proceeded to one shot Tim moments later.

    It's really writer dependent coupled in with what story they're trying to tell. This can lead to inconsistencies and overall head scratchers even, a prime example being Thomas/Batman soloing a group in a fight that consisted of Batwoman, Red Hood, and Cass/+more. That was definitely PIS at its finest. We've seen it multiple times, and I'm sure there will be more to come, lol.

    On another note wish they had kept Tim as 'Drake'. I'm one of the few who really liked the suit, and the name would have glue dried in time. Pretty sure the changed plans with 5G altered that.
    That's why I also said not all Damian's story are written like that, and not all Tim's story propped him up. In short, there's two type of writer, fanboy/fangirl or sadistic writers. And I noticed that Damian often get sadistic writers and Tim often get fanboy writers. Damian get plenty propped up, especially under Tomasi. About Robin War though, I don't think that scene was created to prop Damian up. Main character of Robin War are Dick and Duke, mainly Duke, and Damian, Tim, and Jason get used for their sake. Damian get spotlight more than Tim and Jason because they need him to be emotional blackmail for Dick and to do one on one with Duke as current Robin. The main fight on Robin War issue #2 is between Damian and Duke, with Duke knowing that Batman is Bruce Wayne and Robin is Damian Wayne, he declared that he's not Robin, and kinda defeated Damian? Point is, fight between Damian and Tim and Jason is not the main event of Robin War, that's why writer made it as short as possible, the result is Damian getting propped up to fight Tim and Jason. Just like FP Batman get propped up to fight Batfamily, because the main fight is fight between Thomas and Bruce with Selina? Yeah, that POS.
    Last edited by Light of Justice; 10-17-2020 at 01:33 PM.

  2. #167
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrustyKid View Post
    Wouldn't go that far. Damian has been propped up before and made others look like fodder. Great example being 'Robin War' where he took out Jason in battle in a couple moves, and then proceeded to one shot Tim moments later.

    It's really writer dependent coupled in with what story they're trying to tell. This can lead to inconsistencies and overall head scratchers even, a prime example being Thomas/Batman soloing a group in a fight that consisted of Batwoman, Red Hood, and Cass/+more. That was definitely PIS at its finest. We've seen it multiple times, and I'm sure there will be more to come, lol.

    On another note wish they had kept Tim as 'Drake'. I'm one of the few who really liked the suit, and the name would have glue dried in time. Pretty sure the changed plans with 5G altered that.
    From what I've seen Damian is some best fighter isn't something that's a popular recurring trope in the Damian fandon so pandering to his fans wouldn't involve that.

    Redemption, acceptance, likes animals and being smol/adorable are the tropes than most come up with his fans.

    I think what lightofJustice is talking about is feeding into popular trope that fans like about the character canon or not.
    Like with Tim common recurring tropes are best detective. [even though that's not supported by canon] The popular claim that Tim is the only Robin that Ra's called him Detective. A title normally reserved for Batman. That is of course incorrect.

    Smartest or the claim that he is or has surpassed Bruce [again not supported by canon]. Tynion in the Robin 80th Special having Dick say that Tim is smarter.

    Tim being adorkable or [recently] being tiny

    These are popular tropes and hc that fans have/like/associate with about the character.
    Last edited by dietrich; 10-17-2020 at 01:54 PM.

  3. #168
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Redemption, acceptance, likes animals and being smol/adorable are the tropes than most come up with his fans.
    He really, really needs to be past the smol/adorable thing now. And folks do love retconning his animal love back further (which, to be fair, has been done in canon some).

    Tim being adorkable or [recently] being tiny
    I really don't get the tiny thing. It sometimes seems to hand in hand with infantilizing him in fic. Which happens to all of them to some degree (see all the de-aging and baby bats fics). Young Jason gets it, but then there's the crazy size on the "death certificate" despite the fact that we saw him with classmates and he was normal sized. Doesn't happen to grown Jason, though. Also, lots of abused!Tim there. That's not made it into canon as far as I know. Yes, his parents were inattentive for years, but he was fed, clothed, and in a nice warm boarding school, not freezing and left with no food in the house then beaten by his elitist, racist, homophobic parents when they came home.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 10-17-2020 at 02:01 PM.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badou View Post
    Just look at their stories. It isn't close. They are in far more variety of stories, interact with more characters, and their direction isn't constantly being decided by what Batman is doing. Dick's stories are pretty much all controlled by Batman since the New 52. Right out of the gate the Court of Owls is obviously a Batman story Dick was involved in. Death of the Family was the Joker trying to mess with Batman that Dick was dragged into that ended the circus stuff the Owls' story set up and lead to the Chicago arc. Then Forever Evil ended the Chicago arc to use Dick as bait for Batman with Dick doing nothing during the whole event. Then Forever Evil set up the Grayson series where Dick on Batman's orders was asked to lie about being dead to everyone and go on a mission into Spyral. Then Dick was shot in the head by KGBeast on Bane's order to mess with Batman starting the Ric arc, and the Ric arc ended when Dick was dragged into Joker War where Batman is the one that gave Dick his Nightwing costume and for the first time in two years appeared as Nightwing not in his own book but in Batman's book.

    The only time Dick independently decided his own direction was Seely's Bludhaven arc. Everything thing else in Nightwing's book has all flowed from Batman and his stories. Also Dick has only been part of two teams since the New 52 and both were in Abnett's Titans run. The first Titans team ended because Batman told Dick to disband the team and Dick rolled over and did what Batman said in the most pathetic way possible, and the second team Batman told Dick to have the Titans operate under the JL in the JL Headquarters and to add Miss Martian to the team. Dick did both of them and then got removed from the team after he got shot in the head in Batman's story. I don't understand how anyone can read all of this and not think Dick is stuck under Batman's thumb.

    It's ridiculous. Maybe because it has been going on for so long now readers just got used to it and haven't been paying attention, but Dick's character has very little agency in deciding his own direction. Characters like Tim, Jason, and even Damian have directions that are further removed from Batman and what Batman is doing. I can't remember the last time Dick's character had so little real independence. Maybe you'd have to go back to the 70s before the NTT era.
    Ya, look at their stories. They are hardly independent from Batman. They miss none of the events, and Batman dictates their directions too. From putting back on Robin costumes and having them literally share a book with Batman, to just copying what they did with Dick and having them go undercover for Batman. With flash backs Batman has probably even been more present in Red Hood's book then Nightwing's. Im not arguing that Dick's character has any agency in deciding his own direction, he clearly doesn't, but the others are in the same boat when you really look at their stories and how involved they are in events. They are all in the same boat. Its just less of an issue for them as there are different standards with them and they are at different levels as characters. They aren't really looked at to be something other then a Batman spin off. To the point most of them are literally branded.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 10-17-2020 at 02:24 PM.

  5. #170
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light of Justice View Post
    I think that's the main problem of Tim's writing. When it comes to Tim, sometimes I feel like writers write his story for the sake of pleasing Tim fans only. Like, look fans want Tim to be greatest detective in the world besides Bruce, give them that! Hey look, fans want him to be leader just like Dick, give them that! Hey look, fans want future Batman version of him, give them that! Hey look, fans want him to have new codename, give them that! I mean, sure writers usually write stories for fans, but with that kind of motivation, it will be huge turn off for non-fans, even sometimes for fans too. Add throwing other characters under the bus for his sake, that will just sprouting hate for his character.

    Damian, is the ultimate opposite of his condition. With him, sometimes I feel like writers don't have any restraint at all. "Screw fans, let's see what can I do to him muahahahaha" probably that exist on some writer's mind while writing that poor kid (for our eternal suffering and stress as Damian fans). It's certainly sucks for us on many points, but that makes his stories feel fresh and progressive (albeit not on good direction). I remember Bendis (or other writers maybe, I don't really remember) once said that he has fun writing Damian because he can do things that he can't do to other characters, because Damian is Damian (considering how Bendis wrote Damian, certainly that man had fun abusing his chances. And actually his Damian's writing on Leviathan Dawn is quite good development for him, sadly Checkmate event got postponed for indefinite time).

    Not that I say writing for pleasing fans is always bad thing and writer goes full out on story and disregarding fan's demand is always good thing, both of them have their own plus and minus. Both of the methods have their own fans and haters. And also not that I say all Tim's story is for pleasing fans and all Damian's story is writer wrecking him on many direction, Dceased is one of example of Damian's story that's written with Tim style of writing, I think (and that's why I dropped that title, also maybe because I'm not fans of zombie plot in general, not even on Train to Busan hype era) and fans LOVE it.

    I mean, when for 5G preparation they hire new writer and create 20+ issue for Damian screwing up and losing Robin title when on Tim they just throw him on Bendis, stick new codename that literally his surname on him, give him costume that resemble female duck even though Drake is stands for male duck a.k.a the most dangerous bird in the world, then discards it for uncertain in-universe reasons and on some recent issue make him jumps between Drake, Robin, and Red Robin name, it's obvious which character and future DC is invested too. At this point, I can't even tell whether DC loves Damian and hates Tim, or hates Damian and loves Tim, or some kind of sadism acts for both poor boys, knowing that their fans are masochist as hell. So for DC, maybe you can tone down on Damian a little and be more creative to Tim, please?
    Bendis did indeed say that with Damian he can be creatively less restrained and get away with saying certain things.

    I don't think that DC hates any of it's characters but it's clear that majority of the people in charge [suits not writers] like Tim more than the other Robins. I know Tim fans like to claim that DC hates him or doesn't care but looking at the facts, actions taken, resource and effort management has put into the 4 main Robins. Tim is by far the one they favour.

    Damian DC had planned to keep him dead with Duke lined up to replace him as the new sidekick. Even when they were made to keep him around he was shipped off to another office while the sidekick role was filled briefly by Duke [the new sidekick] and then Tim.

    The push and promotion that comes with being featured in one of DC most circulated titles was given to Tim in Rebirth not to Damian or Duke [the new character who needed that push to launch but to Tim the established character with a 20 year head start on the two]

    Dick we know Didio has been trying to get rid off and in the new 52 Tim was given Dick's TT's history.
    The new 52 management had plans to get rid of Dick and Damian Tim was given 2 titles. Terry's book Batman Beyond and TT's.

    BRE what should have been a celebration of Dick Grayson's decades in comics management used to promote Harper.
    Rebirth
    Tim had Bendis [DC's new big name hire] Tim's generation in YJ was heavily promoted as the face of Wonder comics. DC's teen imprint.
    Tim was the Robin that was to play a major role in dc's Rebirth mystery while writers [Priest, Orlando and Williamson] who wanted to use Damian were told they couldn't because of the danger of over exposure.

    Dick was Ric'd and Management let that linger for over a year despite his title [one of DC's best selling On-goings] bleeding numbers. Tim doesn't move anywhere near as much comics and he isn't as valuable an IP as Dock Grayson yet Management was trying multiple avenues to fix/keep him around.

    Management doesn't really seem to have Jason on their radar much. Pretty much letting Lobdell do his thing and other writer's ignoring it. he doesn't really feature much in other title set across the DCUniverse and his title doesn't get much promotion.

    Yeah it's not even close which DC Management favour.

    Pandering is cool to a degree and it's only natural that writers like everyone else have favourites but DC is a business and it should be run like one.

    As someone already said they can all co-exist with correct management but that doesn't seem to be an area that DC excels in
    Last edited by dietrich; 10-17-2020 at 06:07 PM.

  6. #171
    Mighty Member KrustyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Bendis did indeed say that with Damian he can be creatively less restrained and get away with saying certain things.

    I don't think that DC hates any of it's characters but it's clear that majority of the people in charge [suits not writers] like Tim more than the other Robins. I know Tim fans like to claim that DC hates him or doesn't care but looking at the facts, actions taken, resource and effort management has put into the 4 main Robins. Tim is by far the one they favour.

    Damian DC had planned to keep him dead with Duke lined up to replace him as the new sidekick. Even when they were made to keep him around he was shipped off to another office while the sidekick role was filled briefly by Duke [the new sidekick] and then Tim.

    The push and promotion that comes with being featured in one of DC most circulated titles was given to Tim in Rebirth not to Damian or Duke [the new character who needed that push to launch but to Tim the established character with a 20 year head start on the two]

    Dick we know Didio has been trying to get rid off and in the new 52 Tim was given Dick's TT's history.
    The new 52 management had plans to get rid of Dick and Damian Tim was given 2 titles. Terry's book Batman Beyond and TT's.

    BRE what should have been a celebration of Dick Grayson's decades in comics management used to promote Harper.
    Rebirth
    Tim had Bendis [DC's new big name hire] Tim's generation in YJ was heavily promoted as the face of Wonder comics. DC's teen imprint.
    Tim was the Robin that was to play a major role in dc's Rebirth mystery while writers [Priest, Orlando and Williamson] who wanted to use Damian were told they couldn't because of the danger of over exposure.

    Dick was Ric'd and Management let that linger for over a year despite his title [one of DC's best selling On-goings] bleeding numbers. Tim doesn't move anywhere near as much comics and he isn't as valuable an IP as Dock Grayson yet Management was trying multiple avenues to fix/keep him around.

    Management doesn't really seem to have Jason on their radar much. Pretty much letting Lobdell do his thing and other writer's ignoring it. he doesn't really feature much in other title set across the DCUniverse and his title doesn't get much promotion.

    Yeah it's not even close which DC Management favour.

    Pandering is cool to a degree and it's only natural that writers like everyone else have favourites but DC is a business and it should be run like one.

    As someone already said they can all co-exist with correct management but that doesn't seem to be an area that DC excels in
    I disagree for the most part. Though it is true some do favor Tim in upper management, the same could be said for all the Robin boys. If you include outside media push Dick is the clear winner bar none, which comes as no surprise; with Damian trailing in second. Jason and Tim would be neck and neck for the 3rd/4th spot as far as appearances are concerned.

    Tim hasn't had the chance to really develop as a character in his own right; not to the extent like Jason, Dick, and Damian who weren't consistently hampered by an overcrowded cast. The point to make, I think it was less of pushing Tim and more of having a 'Robin' to be the face of the premier teen team book whether it be TT or YJ. Especially early on when the New 52 started.

    Honestly Damian has fallen in that boat too as of recent(like Tim), his only adventures being in TT derailed his progress on more than one front. The characters seem less of themselves and seem to be written more to fit a particular writers(or editorials) vision for where the story is going. Can't count how many times Tim was OOC in those TT runs, we just saw the same with Damian.

    In short I don't think any of the Robins are being pushed too much harder than the others atm. All are getting some kind of shine, though the decisions made with some of them have not been good at all. The whole Ric ordeal stands at the top of that list.
    Last edited by KrustyKid; 10-17-2020 at 07:08 PM.

  7. #172
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrustyKid View Post
    I disagree for the most part. Though it is true some do favor Tim in upper management, the same could be said for all the Robin boys. If you include outside media push Dick is the clear winner bar none, which comes as no surprise; with Damian trailing in second. Jason and Tim would be neck and neck for the 3rd/4th spot as far as appearances are concerned.

    Tim hasn't had the chance to really develop as a character in his own right; not to the extent like Jason, Dick, and Damian who weren't consistently hampered by an overcrowded cast. The point to make, I think it was less of pushing Tim and more of having a 'Robin' to be the face of the premier teen team book whether it be TT or YJ. Especially early on when the New 52 started.

    Honestly Damian has fallen in that boat too as of recent(like Tim), his only adventures being in TT derailed his progress on more than one front. The characters seem less of themselves and seem to be written more to fit a particular writers(or editorials) vision for where the story is going. Can't count how many times Tim was OOC in those TT runs, we just saw the same with Damian.

    In short I don't think any of the Robins are being pushed too much harder than the others atm. All are getting some kind of shine, though the decisions made with some of them have not been good at all. The whole Ric ordeal stands at the top of that list.
    Other media is handled by a different department, and really just further demonstrates Tim favoritism in comics. Because there is so little going on with him in other media to justify it. Hell when the Titans TV show was going on they launched a Titans comic with all the tv show's members but with Tim as Robin.
    Also remember Nightwing became Nightwing in NTT, The New 52 Teen Titans was an attempt to launch Red Robin in the same way they launched Nightwing. The intent wasn't to derail him but to spring board him as the face and leader of their youth line. They envisioned the New 52 Teen Titans as a flagship title. And Damian. His Teen Titans, and generation for that matter, was completely undercut by the launch of Young Justice and the Wonder Line. Which would be their second attempt to not only launch a book but a youth line around Tim and his friends. That Damian's TTs hung in there like it did, and that YJ did so poorly still surprises me. Just goes to show how off the mark DC is with Tim and his generation. Yet instead of learning from YJ they are doubling down by making Tim Robin again. Ric lasted longer then Drake did LoL. When Nightwing stops selling they shoot him in the head and turn him into Ric, when whatever they call Tim stops selling they make him Robin again. Tim is literally just failing his way back into Robin. Which like i said before, i just don't to see what that does for Robin.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 10-17-2020 at 08:13 PM.

  8. #173
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Other media is handled by a different department, and really just further demonstrates Tim favoritism in comics. Because there is so little going on with him in other media to justify it. Hell when the Titans TV show was going on they launched a Titans comic with all the tv show's members but with Tim as Robin.
    Well, apparently Tim is so loved that he's super important (does this imply other Bat-Family aren't so loved?).



    I never understood the point of this storyline.
    Last edited by Bat-Meal; 10-17-2020 at 08:22 PM.

  9. #174
    Mighty Member KrustyKid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Other media is handled by a different department, and really just further demonstrates Tim favoritism in comics. Because there is so little going on with him in other media to justify it. Hell when the Titans TV show was going on they launched a Titans comic with all the tv show's members but with Tim as Robin.
    Also remember Nightwing became Nightwing in NTT, The New 52 Teen Titans was an attempt to launch Red Robin in the same way they launched Nightwing. The intent wasn't to derail him but to spring board him as the face and leader of their youth line. They envisioned the New 52 Teen Titans as a flagship title. And Damian. His Teen Titans, and generation for that matter, was completely undercut by the launch of Young Justice and the Wonder Line. Which would be their second attempt to not only launch a book but a youth line around Tim and his friends. That Damian's TTs hung in there like it did, and that YJ did so poorly still surprises me. Just goes to show how off the mark DC is with Tim and his generation. Yet instead of learning from YJ they are doubling down by making Tim Robin again. Ric lasted longer then Drake did LoL. When Nightwing stops selling they shoot him in the head and turn him into Ric, when whatever they call Tim stops selling they make him Robin again. Tim is literally just failing his way back into Robin. Which like i said before, i just don't to see what that does for Robin.
    I don't think that's the case with the 'Drake' name. He lasted what.. three issues of YJ before having the name change. That has nothing to do with failing, more like an editorial shift in direction, obviously fueled by the 5G changes in this case. This is further backed by how Tim switched back to a Robin suit at the end of the issue. It was just thrown at us, no buildup or any story behind it. Like when he lost the Robin mantle pre-52 to set up the Dick/Damian dynamic this whole plot line is a Damian story more so than Tim's, where he falls is merrily a domino effect. The point is Tim isn't being pushed here, just them putting him in a role they want filled since they're taking Damian in a different direction. Not to say Damian won't be back as Robin in the near future, who knows where it will go.

  10. #175
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrustyKid View Post
    I don't think that's the case with the 'Drake' name. He lasted what.. three issues of YJ before having the name change. That has nothing to do with failing, more like an editorial shift in direction, obviously fueled by the 5G changes in this case. This is further backed by how Tim switched back to a Robin suit at the end of the issue. It was just thrown at us, no buildup or any story behind it. Like when he lost the Robin mantle pre-52 to set up the Dick/Damian dynamic this whole plot line is a Damian story more so than Tim's, where he falls is merrily a domino effect. The point is Tim isn't being pushed here, just them putting him in a role they want filled since they're taking Damian in a different direction. Not to say Damian won't be back as Robin in the near future, who knows where it will go.
    Dude the Drake name wasn't a success and you can't say it was obviously fuelled by the 5G changes when you don't know that.

    We know that Bendis said a while back that he'd be getting a new id and that he and Tynion have been teasing his return to the batbooks with Steph.

    Plus my initial post wasn't about just the current situation.

    The point I was making is that the DC editorial does have a favourite and that favourite is Tim.

  11. #176
    Fantastic Member Light of Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    He really, really needs to be past the smol/adorable thing now. And folks do love retconning his animal love back further (which, to be fair, has been done in canon some).
    Smol and adorable thing is kinda automatically attached to youngest character in Batfam a.k.a Robin, even Tim get some of it when he was the youngest on Batfam. On disqus I once joked "Robin costume has some factor that can stunt children's growth", but it's actually kinda true, because Robin is essentially tiny sidekick next to Batman. They're under size by default. That's why just like you said, Robin Jason get so much undersized which sometimes get used to make Jason's death more dramatic. Also that's why I strongly on the opinion that Tim become Robin is a huge regression, and if it will really happen, shame on you DC. Yes, Robin Eternal is also included, I mean even second cover shows the very tiny Tim, which is ugh. Even though I am on the opinion that Tim will be the shortest once Damian get hit by growth spurt, but no that tiny either. Speaking about growth spurt, yes, me love some huge grown up Damian. I'm not even ashamed for that. And don't get me wrong, I'm not sexualizing Damian, I just like Damian become huge like his father. On my defense, both Batman666 future and Demon Head future painted adult Damian as a tank, just like his father. So sorry for smol Damian lover, but I will pray for growth spurt to come at Damian as quick as possible.

    About animal thing, on recent times when DC is adamant to monsterized Damian, those animals was magically disappeared. Even huge thing like Goliath, which present on first half of TT, nowhere on sight on Glass's TT. Batcow and Alfred the Cat also nowhere to be seen, and Titus now more like Bruce's pet and become best buddies with Ace. Just like Robins to Batman, those animals are used to represent the softness on Damian's heart, and sadly for them, they're easier to get rid of compared to Robins when writer wants some always alone, serious broody borderline asshole behavior Damian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I really don't get the tiny thing. It sometimes seems to hand in hand with infantilizing him in fic. Which happens to all of them to some degree (see all the de-aging and baby bats fics). Young Jason gets it, but then there's the crazy size on the "death certificate" despite the fact that we saw him with classmates and he was normal sized. Doesn't happen to grown Jason, though. Also, lots of abused!Tim there. That's not made it into canon as far as I know. Yes, his parents were inattentive for years, but he was fed, clothed, and in a nice warm boarding school, not freezing and left with no food in the house then beaten by his elitist, racist, homophobic parents when they came home.
    Oho the wonder of fanfiction! See, it's worldwide knowledge that there's competition among Robins fandom. But on fanfiction world, instead of the usual "who's the smartest" "who's the strongest" "who's the skilled", usually there's 2 main competition:

    1. Who's the most loved by Bruce?
    2. Who's the most suffered?

    The second is actually existed on almost every fandoms, not only Robins, which we often call "Pain Olympic". And actually both of those competition are somewhat related, because I don't know since when and why, fandom collectively agree that you have to be THE MOST SUFFERED to be THE MOST DESERVED TO BE LOVED (which is simply untrue and considered toxic mindset in my opinion). So yeah, if the fanfiction author is Tim biased, and by default they want Tim to be the most loved, the first action is make Tim to be the most suffered, which results is complete butchered character of Janet and Jack. And funnily, on some fic, author who wrote Jack and Janet to be such an awful parents to Tim, is the same author who write that Tim fell into huge anorexic and coffee addict depression after Jack and Janet's death. To be fair for them, DC writer also often write Jack and Janet as awful parents, albeit not as dramatic as those fanfiction writer, to justify Tim's adoption, because let's be real, there's no way CPS allow someone whose popular as a rich spoiled playboy figure adopts a kid who has his own healthy and loving parents, and that's even without knowing their night activities. Not only Jack and Janet, Dick and Bruce are the next most common victim to be butchered by fans who want some woobified Tim.

    And just like you said, that's not only happened to Tim. On fics, Damian is also often woobified, with Talia as the most victim and Bruce as the most second next victim. Yes, they're also canonly very shitty parents and again fics often dramatized it up. Also the funny thing, I often stumble Damian fics with "Bad Mom Talia", and on the run they make Selina as Damian's pseudo and better mom. Looks like Batcat fans moved past their hatred on Damian's existence that threatened their fic and proceed to claim Damian as Batman and Selina lovechild. Poor Helena. Jason's parents also get some butchering, but they're very minor character and canonly shitty without any redeeming plots so they don't have any protection in the hand of those thirsty authors. Mary and John are safe, because they're dead (oh the irony) and their death is the biggest tragedy in Dick's life, so for his case the most victim of character butchering is Bruce.

    Sometimes I read those kind of fics to get a good laugh.
    Last edited by Light of Justice; Yesterday at 08:05 AM.

  12. #177
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Do you think this "Batman" could be William Cobb ? The daggers could indicate it, and the suit has some Talon's vibe, with the golden bits around the eyes and what not.

  13. #178
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Dude the Drake name wasn't a success and you can't say it was obviously fuelled by the 5G changes when you don't know that.

    We know that Bendis said a while back that he'd be getting a new id and that he and Tynion have been teasing his return to the batbooks with Steph.

    Plus my initial post wasn't about just the current situation.

    The point I was making is that the DC editorial does have a favourite and that favourite is Tim.
    Drake's reception was enough that eventually Bendis wrote everyone in-universe as having hated it .
    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post


    Do you think this "Batman" could be William Cobb ? The daggers could indicate it, and the suit has some Talon's vibe, with the golden bits around the eyes and what not.
    I definitely think it's someone involved with the Court.

  14. #179
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Light of Justice View Post
    Smol and adorable thing is kinda automatically attached to youngest character in Batfam a.k.a Robin, even Tim get some of it when he was the youngest on Batfam. On disqus I once joked "Robin costume has some factor that can stunt children's growth", but it's actually kinda true, because Robin is essentially tiny sidekick next to Batman. They're under size by default. That's why just like you said, Robin Jason get so much undersized which sometimes get used to make Jason's death more dramatic. Also that's why I strongly on the opinion that Tim become Robin is a huge regression, and if it will really happen, shame on you DC. Yes, Robin Eternal is also included, I mean even second cover shows the very tiny Tim, which is ugh. Even though I am on the opinion that Tim will be the shortest once Damian get hit by growth spurt, but no that tiny either. Speaking about growth spurt, yes, me love some huge grown up Damian. I'm not even ashamed for that. And don't get me wrong, I'm not sexualizing Damian, I just like Damian become huge like his father. On my defense, both Batman666 future and Demon Head future painted adult Damian as a tank, just like his father. So sorry for smol Damian lover, but I will pray for growth spurt to come at Damian as quick as possible.

    Oho the wonder of fanfiction! See, it's worldwide knowledge that there's competition among Robins fandom. But on fanfiction world, instead of the usual "who's the smartest" "who's the strongest" "who's the skilled", usually there's 2 main competition:

    1. Who's the most loved by Bruce?
    2. Who's the most suffered?

    The second is actually existed on almost every fandoms, not only Robins, which we often call "Pain Olympic". And actually both of those competition are somewhat related, because I don't know since when and why, fandom collectively agree that you have to be THE MOST SUFFERED to be THE MOST DESERVED TO BE LOVED (which is simply untrue and considered toxic mindset in my opinion). So yeah, if the fanfiction author is Tim biased, and by default they want Tim to be the most loved, the first action is make Tim to be the most suffered, which results is complete butchered character of Janet and Jack. And funnily, on some fic, author who wrote Jack and Janet to be such an awful parents to Tim, is the same author who write that Tim fell into huge anorexic and coffee addict depression after Jack and Janet's death. To be fair for them, DC writer also often write Jack and Janet as awful parents, albeit not as dramatic as those fanfiction writer, to justify Tim's adoption, because let's be real, there's no way CPS allow someone whose popular as a rich spoiled playboy figure adopts a kid who has his own healthy and loving parents, and that's even without knowing their night activities. Not only Jack and Janet, Dick and Bruce are the next most common victim to be butchered by fans who want some woobified Tim.

    And just like you said, that's not only happened to Tim. On fics, Damian is also often woobified, with Talia as the most victim and Bruce as the most second next victim. Yes, they're also canonly very shitty parents and again fics often dramatized it up. Also the funny thing, I often stumble Damian fics with "Bad Mom Talia", and on the run they make Selina as Damian's pseudo and better mom. Looks like Batcat fans moved past their hatred on Damian's existence that threatened their fic and proceed to claim Damian as Batman and Selina lovechild. Poor Helena. Jason's parents also get some butchering, but they're very minor character and canonly shitty without any redeeming plots so they don't have any protection in the hand of those thirsty authors. Mary and John are safe, because they're dead (oh the irony) and their death is the biggest tragedy in Dick's life, so for his case the most victim of character butchering is Bruce.
    In Tumblr there are comedic contrast posts that goes like this
    Me: Stop hurting my child!
    Also Me: Give me the angst!

    Which for me is the simplest way to explain everything

    The infantilizing part is because I think most Tim fans who grew up with him are now older women with motherly instinct while Tim himself never grew up since 2011. (the young gay ones are just still mainly stay viewing him as their teen heartthrob)

    As a comparison there's me finding Dick annoying when I was a kid when he was a kid and now find him hot, because we both grew up. If Dick never grew up I'd probably view him as my kid too.

    I heard of the Pain Olympic, and I think that one's tied to how much attention DC themselves given to justify the characters, for example, Damian's upbringing has been brought up often to justify his brat-highness so other fans who feel left out if they're characters are not written well takes to fanfic to express it.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; Yesterday at 10:03 AM.

  15. #180
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Smol and adorable thing is kinda automatically attached to youngest character in Batfam a.k.a Robin, even Tim get some of it when he was the youngest on Batfam.
    I don't recall seeing much of that attitude in '90s and early '00s written fanfic. Mind you, I didn't read much back then, so that could definitely be why. I didn't read the comics, but I would occasionally look for B:TAS fanfic (not the new stuff after network change or using what happened in Batman Beyond) and came across comic content sometimes. Seems like there was a contingent of Tim/Cass shippers, but they may have just been a subset of the Dick/Babs fandom who liked the idea of Robin/Batgirl. Heck, it might even have just been one person (I know there was one who shipped Dinah/Bruce in that era and write a fanfic series with that incorproated). Mind you, they didn't have 10-year-olds taller than 13-year-Tim in canon, either.

    I heard of the Pain Olympic,
    Definite thing. I would say "fans always like hurting the character they love in fanfic" but it usually only goes so far. It only applies to certain characters. There's a dynamic where certain characters suffer a lot and then other characters comfort them. And it's rarely the reverse. Even when canon relationship are more mutual. Seems to me female characters usually end up rescued/comforted by love interests and male ones (who I see more this with, but may be due to more male-heavy casts in older programs) by more dominant male figures (fathers & older brothers usually, but older male co-workers in surrogate relationships of that sort, too). I recall it most from LucasWhump in SeaQuest, Charlie in Numb3ers, and Peter Caine in Kung Fu: The Legend Continues.

    But part of it is definitely competition in this fandom. "My character has had it so much worse, he deserves the sympathy and cuddles". And DC contributes to that with Dick, at least, retroactively adding more bad things to his past. Parents getting murdered wasn't bad enough, so lets add in him being tossed in a juvenile detention facility. Oh, he didn't quit Robin on his own, he was unjustly fired for it. Oh, and Robin was his mom's pet name and those were his family colors, so he was even more wronged. Of course, they've also retconned in Barbara treating Jason poorly. Not sure about Dick in canon, but fanfic sure likes to say he rejected or mistreated Jason. Oddest thing is how Jack Drake gets vilified well beyond anything we saw in canon, but Steph's mother, who canonically allowed abuse, allowed her abuser in the house later, someone Steph spent years knowing she couldn't count on, etc. gets a pass. Maybe because of the Batgirl series, I don't know - didn't read much of it.

    The infantilizing part is because I think most Tim fans who grew up with him are now older women with motherly instinct while Tim himself never grew up since 2011
    It's not just that, though. It's characters acting 8 when they're said to be 12/13 in flashbacks. Or Damian acting 6 instead of 10 (which ties into smol adorable Damian, I think). Or how many I see where Dick lives in the manor again as an adult. It's really in Batfam fanfic, I think. To make/keep them all one big happy family with Bruce as dad and them never growing up or moving out. These will typically be ones with amazing Dad Bruce (we get Amazing Dad Bruce and Horribly Emotionally Abusive Bruce in fanfic - can't deny both has their foundation in canon, though).
    Last edited by Tzigone; Yesterday at 10:24 AM.

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