Why is Doug portrayed as weak non combatant?

[Sutekh]

Everyone is acting as if Warlock is not one of the most powerful characters around. Cipher is not aloooone.

Yeah. In his first introduction, Warlock's dad *ripped a sun in half and chucked it at him.*

Warlock may not be at dad's level, but there's not a long list of X-Men who could avoid getting killed by that sort of thing.

He's about fiddy billion times more powerful than Wolverine, that's for darn sure, and nobody's questioning whether or not Team Shnikt-bub has the right stuff.

[Omega Alpha]

The thing is: Saturnyne has chosen the champions of each side with an ulterior motive.

Maybe there are people she wants to die, maybe there are pieces that she wants to put in motion, like Cable in SWORD.

That is why I would not be surprised at all if the 10th was Moira. If Saturnyne has any idea what she is, or even that she's alive and hidden, I can see her wanting to let the X-men know it.

[gambitxremy]

Doug is a savage! It’s canon

[Godlike13]

I can read a math book but that doesn't make me a mathematician.

[Killerbee911]

Almost forgot this is also a classic set up, the "weak" character in these situations either gets a good showing in fight and almost wins or they out smart their opponent based on them thinking they are so weak. When done right you can get a classic moment. You can see Warlock getting hurt in the fight and Doug losing his mind in rage and working on instinct beating up the opponent. Maybe something like Doug subconsciously doesn't want to hurt people and you get the explaintion for why in the past he has been able to destory people in fights.

Anyways they have been telegraphing Doug losing too much for him to lose (unless they are on that Game of thrones/Walk dead I am going to punish expectation type thing)

[Sutekh]

Almost forgot this is also a classic set up, the "weak" character in these situations either gets a good showing in fight and almost wins or they out smart their opponent based on them thinking they are so weak. When done right you can get a classic moment.

That would be fun. But Ilyanna tends to be the righteous voice who is never wrong, and she has decreed that he's gonna die cause he's so bad at fighting and she can't save him, so I don't know if she's gonna be arbitrarily proven right again, or have her face rubbed in it when he turns out not to suck as much as she said he would.

(And when did Ilyanna become a god? Good lord, she's a teenager who has never had any real training in swordfighting, and has a magic soulsword *that doesn't cut people* and only damages magical constructs/summoned things! She's going into a swordfight against *mutants.* Not demons or ghosts. Her sword is literally going to pass right through them. (Although she'll be handy if Summoner is there, 'cause she can cut/banish his summonings, presumably.) Oh, and her arms are twigs, cause she needs a dam sammich. So even if she had a real sword, she's gonna hit about as hard as a toddler with a pool noodle. She's 98% attitude and 2% not-enough-damn-skirt-young-lady.)

[Woozie]

That would be fun. But Ilyanna tends to be the righteous voice who is never wrong, and she has decreed that he's gonna die cause he's so bad at fighting and she can't save him, so I don't know if she's gonna be arbitrarily proven right again, or have her face rubbed in it when he turns out not to suck as much as she said he would.

(And when did Ilyanna become a god? Good lord, she's a teenager who has never had any real training in swordfighting, and has a magic soulsword *that doesn't cut people* and only damages magical constructs/summoned things! She's going into a swordfight against *mutants.* Not demons or ghosts. Her sword is literally going to pass right through them. (Although she'll be handy if Summoner is there, 'cause she can cut/banish his summonings, presumably.) Oh, and her arms are twigs, cause she needs a dam sammich. So even if she had a real sword, she's gonna hit about as hard as a toddler with a pool noodle. She's 98% attitude and 2% not-enough-damn-skirt-young-lady.)

What are you talking about?

Magik hasn't made any predictions this era. So what the **** is all this "never proven wrong" ****? She swings the sword and sasses, what does any of that have to do with being rightgeous? Also "no real training in sword fighting" Half of her origin story is about learning sword fighting from a swordmaster demonic Kitty Pryde. On top of the fact that her sword's killed people for ages now, so bringing up that it's ethereal is also silly.

And arms like pool noodles? Welcome to every comic woman that's not She Hulk or Titania.

Imagine saying the chick whose entire thing is fighting with a sword, doesn't know how to fight with a sword.

[sunofdarkchild]

That would be fun. But Ilyanna tends to be the righteous voice who is never wrong, and she has decreed that he's gonna die cause he's so bad at fighting and she can't save him, so I don't know if she's gonna be arbitrarily proven right again, or have her face rubbed in it when he turns out not to suck as much as she said he would.

(And when did Ilyanna become a god? Good lord, she's a teenager who has never had any real training in swordfighting, and has a magic soulsword *that doesn't cut people* and only damages magical constructs/summoned things! She's going into a swordfight against *mutants.* Not demons or ghosts. Her sword is literally going to pass right through them. (Although she'll be handy if Summoner is there, 'cause she can cut/banish his summonings, presumably.) Oh, and her arms are twigs, cause she needs a dam sammich. So even if she had a real sword, she's gonna hit about as hard as a toddler with a pool noodle. She's 98% attitude and 2% not-enough-damn-skirt-young-lady.)

Magik received years of sword and combat training from Cat to the point where she was better than Cat. For 2 years she did nothing but train with blades and run. That's a big part of why she turned part of her soul into a sword. Her sword also began affecting non-magical things in the leadup to Inferno over 30 years ago. The comics even acknowledged the change at the time to emphasize that she was becoming more corrupted.

In terms of strength, in addition to the years of training she received, her eldrich armor enhances her strength to an extent and her Darkchild form is incomparably stronger than her human form both in physical strength and in magical power. The data page on the soul sword also explains that its weight is "negligible" to the wielder.

[ericng]

Almost forgot this is also a classic set up, the "weak" character in these situations either gets a good showing in fight and almost wins or they out smart their opponent based on them thinking they are so weak. When done right you can get a classic moment. You can see Warlock getting hurt in the fight and Doug losing his mind in rage and working on instinct beating up the opponent. Maybe something like Doug subconsciously doesn't want to hurt people and you get the explaintion for why in the past he has been able to destory people in fights.

Anyways they have been telegraphing Doug losing too much for him to lose (unless they are on that Game of thrones/Walk dead I am going to punish expectation type thing)

I think Marvel is giving everybody an impression that Doug will die because he doesn't appear in NM #14.

Everybody here calling him a weakling doesn't help too.

I think Hickman may have something up his sleeves which might surprise us. Of all people, why choose Doug?

[Gigantor]

I think Marvel is giving everybody an impression that Doug will die because he doesn't appear in NM #14.

Everybody here calling him a weakling doesn't help too.

I think Hickman may have something up his sleeves which might surprise us. Of all people, why choose Doug?

At the very least he is setting up a bait and switch. You don’t call a character weak and say he is doomed over and over again just to kill him so clearly Doug will be fine. Probably there will be a twist about who he fights. As far as I can tell they never said the fights MUST be to the death. So there could be a twist where for example Doug fights solem and solem immediately surrenders because he has no interest in fighting Doug.

[OopsIdiditagain]

At the very least he is setting up a bait and switch. You don’t call a character weak and say he is doomed over and over again just to kill him so clearly Doug will be fine. Probably there will be a twist about who he fights. As far as I can tell they never said the fights MUST be to the death. So there could be a twist where for example Doug fights solem and solem immediately surrenders because he has no interest in fighting Doug.

You do if the author wants to subvert expectations. Or they constantly call a character weak, foreshadow a character's death and have him survive near-death situations just to make the eventual death more impactful.

[Sutekh]

Magik received years of sword and combat training from Cat to the point where she was better than Cat. For 2 years she did nothing but train with blades and run. That's a big part of why she turned part of her soul into a sword. Her sword also began affecting non-magical things in the leadup to Inferno over 30 years ago. The comics even acknowledged the change at the time to emphasize that she was becoming more corrupted.

In terms of strength, in addition to the years of training she received, her eldrich armor enhances her strength to an extent and her Darkchild form is incomparably stronger than her human form both in physical strength and in magical power. The data page on the soul sword also explains that its weight is "negligible" to the wielder.

Cool, thanks for the detailed info. (You even brought receipts. Nice!) Apparently I've gone completely mental, because I forgot about Cat entirely. (I remember the years of training in sorcery with Ororo, and years spent with Belasco, but Cat did not leave an impression, and, gosh, that girl spent a lot of time training...)

I was just bugged by how Ilyanna has gotten so far ahead of her New Mutant colleagues, even the founding five, or ones who seemed like they were being groomed, back in the day, for big things, like Sam and Dani, only for her to be the lead in their movie, and her to be the 'Captain,' with the rest of them, sort of scattered around not doing a hell of a lot.

But she has earned some respect, so I'm just being curmudgeonly.

Although I do think it's interesting how often she sort of goes off the deep end (as she did in Asgard, back in the day, treating everyone else as her lackeys, telling them to stay out of her way, she was the only one that mattered, or did again with 'Crimson Colossus' or did most recently in Genosha flipping out and turning into some sort of demon-queen) and the rest of the X-folk sort of shrug it off as Ilyanna being Ilyanna. "Eh, it's a Tuesday, she's come over a bit megalomaniacal again. This too shall pass."

I have a contradictory love for sass from older characters like Emma, or even Rogue, when she brings it, but none at all for teens or tweens like the Stepford Cuckoos or Ilyanna. It feels unearned, when, in Ilyanna's case, at least, thanks to her time in Limbo, it kind of is, earned.

Thanks for correcting me on this point with such surgical precision! (Luckily it's the Internet, so I don't have to feel shame. We're all imaginary people here.)

[sunofdarkchild]

Cool, thanks for the detailed info. (You even brought receipts. Nice!) Apparently I've gone completely mental, because I forgot about Cat entirely. (I remember the years of training in sorcery with Ororo, and years spent with Belasco, but Cat did not leave an impression, and, gosh, that girl spent a lot of time training...)

I was just bugged by how Ilyanna has gotten so far ahead of her New Mutant colleagues, even the founding five, or ones who seemed like they were being groomed, back in the day, for big things, like Sam and Dani, only for her to be the lead in their movie, and her to be the 'Captain,' with the rest of them, sort of scattered around not doing a hell of a lot.

But she has earned some respect, so I'm just being curmudgeonly.

Although I do think it's interesting how often she sort of goes off the deep end (as she did in Asgard, back in the day, treating everyone else as her lackeys, telling them to stay out of her way, she was the only one that mattered, or did again with 'Crimson Colossus' or did most recently in Genosha flipping out and turning into some sort of demon-queen) and the rest of the X-folk sort of shrug it off as Ilyanna being Ilyanna. "Eh, it's a Tuesday, she's come over a bit megalomaniacal again. This too shall pass."

I have a contradictory love for sass from older characters like Emma, or even Rogue, when she brings it, but none at all for teens or tweens like the Stepford Cuckoos or Ilyanna. It feels unearned, when, in Ilyanna's case, at least, thanks to her time in Limbo, it kind of is, earned.

Thanks for correcting me on this point with such surgical precision! (Luckily it's the Internet, so I don't have to feel shame. We're all imaginary people here.)

Well, in many ways she was ahead of the rest of the New Mutants even before she joined the team. Her origin ends with her - on her own - defeating Belasco, one of those villains who is capable of taking on the entire X-Men at once and winning and a universal threat. She also became the ruler of an entire dimension with a limitless army at her command. In the issue where she 'joined' the team they were attacked by S'ym, who didn't flinch when Sam, Roberto, or Amara attacked him, but by the end of the issue she had him so humbled he agreed to be her servant. In the Demon Bear story it's obvious that she'd have an easier time killing the beast if she was by herself instead of having to maintain her shields for Dani and worry about everyone else as well, and they win very quickly once she decides to take charge. She was also the New Mutant who was most often sent to aid the X-Men, whether it was against the Dire Wraiths in issue 188 when she finally revealed to Colossus that she was a sorceress or when she went with the X-Men to help the Morlocks the first time the Marauders attacked in issue 211. Where Sam and Dani were being groomed to maybe be the next team leader like Cyclops or Storm, at a time when the X-Men still had less than a dozen members, Illyana was already a literal queen who also literally carried the fate of all creation on her shoulders at all times, and you wouldn't see the other New Mutants sent on the same dangerous missions alongside the X-Men Illyana was sent on.





She's also not the lead in the movie. Dani is the lead and most characters, including Illyana, are defined by how they relate to Dani. Illyana gets 2 cool action scenes at the end, but Dani is the POV character and it's all about her. The movie probably would have been better if they had Illyana be the co-lead like Wolverine was the co-lead with Rogue in the first X-Men movie, but they didn't do that.

[Gigantor]

You do if the author wants to subvert expectations. Or they constantly call a character weak, foreshadow a character's death and have him survive near-death situations just to make the eventual death more impactful.

Nah at this point the comics protest to much. It’s setting up a bait and switch. They are just building up Doug dying way to much. Plus there is an ongoing mystery of why he needed to hide warlock considering he seems welcomed. Those could be a explored with a new Doug but I doubt it. It’s also possible that the “super death” that happened to rockslide was not related to other world after all so when Doug dies he just comes back as a big anti climax just like kitty in marauders (what a waste of a comic I weep for the trees) so there are directions. I sincerely doubt that Doug is actually gonna die

[Leirus]

Nah at this point the comics protest to much. It’s setting up a bait and switch. They are just building up Doug dying way to much. Plus there is an ongoing mystery of why he needed to hide warlock considering he seems welcomed. Those could be a explored with a new Doug but I doubt it. It’s also possible that the “super death” that happened to rockslide was not related to other world after all so when Doug dies he just comes back as a big anti climax just like kitty in marauders (what a waste of a comic I weep for the trees) so there are directions. I sincerely doubt that Doug is actually gonna die

I think Doug being one fo the swordsmen and Warlock being a secret may be related. Most readers seem to have forgotten how dangerous Warlock actually is. He can infect anything with his technovirus. That is why Magik forbade him going into Limbo ever again.