Do you have any feelings on Leslie Thomkins?

[JAG2045]

I like Leslie as another confidant for Bruce and a connection to his parents (was she always a contemporary of Thomas Wayne or was that a retcon from Year Two/Batman the Animated Series?)

I dislike her though when her sole role in a story is just to complaining to Bruce/a member of the Bat-Family about the violent lifestyle and saying "what would your father think?" which happens a lot (especially when shes in the Azrael series)

Of course War Games obliterated her character, luckily they retconned that out of existence! It was a total betrayal of the character and her role as a Doctor

[Tzigone]

I like Leslie as another confidant for Bruce and a connection to his parents (was she always a contemporary of Thomas Wayne or was that a retcon from Year Two/Batman the Animated Series?)

She was not. She first appeared in the 1970s. In 'Tec 457. It definitely has a pre Year One feel if you read it in that Thomas and Martha were killed in the rich part of town that only went downhill later (which makes so much more sense). And Alfred doesn't know where Bruce goes every year on the anniversary of their deaths even though he's the "the Batman's closet confidant - next to Robin." It's also explicitly the 21 anniversary of their deaths.

In this version, Leslie found him after his parents were murdered and was comforting and soothing.
Leslie.jpg

Batman saves Leslie from being mugged and notes that he always comes to crime alley on this day, though she doesn't know. why.

She shows up again in 'Tec 483. She certainly seemed much oldest in than Thomas would be in these appearances and I don't recall her being a doctor, but wouldn't swear to it.

After that I don't think she showed up again until early post-COIE, where she is the doctor that knows his identity and lectures him in the way that we're all used to.

[Restingvoice]

She was not. She first appeared in the 1970s. In 'Tec 457. It definitely has a pre Year One feel if you read it in that Thomas and Martha were killed in the rich part of town that only went downhill later (which makes so much more sense). And Alfred doesn't know where Bruce goes every year on the anniversary of their deaths even though he's the "the Batman's closet confidant - next to Robin." It's also explicitly the 21 anniversary of their deaths.

In this version, Leslie found him after his parents were murdered and was comforting and soothing.
Leslie.jpg

Batman saves Leslie from being mugged and notes that he always comes to crime alley on this day, though she doesn't know. why.

She shows up again in 'Tec 483. She certainly seemed much oldest in than Thomas would be in these appearances and I don't recall her being a doctor, but wouldn't swear to it.

After that I don't think she showed up again until early post-COIE, where she is the doctor that knows his identity and lectures him in the way that we're all used to.

I should have my copy... it's my favorite... ah!

They didn't mention her profession. When she's robbed she said she only carried money from the market for a neighbor's child, and she offered to write a cheque for the robbers.

So my impression is she does general on-hand charity work. Money, maybe food and care. The modern Leslie is a doctor that struggles with a limited budget for her clinic and dress casually. This old one gave the impression of a higher class lady. Probably what's left of when it was still a rich people neighborhood. By the sound of it she's no longer as rich as she was maybe, but still richer than most people in Crime Alley.

I only have the first appearance though.

I never read modern Leslie, so I never suffer her lecture.

[charliehustle415]

All I know was that she was done dirty during War Games and her character never really recovered; which is a damn shame because she is a great POV from the streets and the actual casualties of Batman's war on crime and his rogues.

[godisawesome]

When done right, she’s an immense benefit to the mythos, and a breath of fresh air as an authority figure for the cats who’s not a dude.

And I’ll be honest, the pacifism thing is something I often forget, because the best uses of her tend to just focus on her being a decent person int he worst parts of Gotham who’s got the right kind of nuanced view to help offset the “it’s one giant cesspool of horrible people” image.

I think she could easily be used as a strong supporting cast character again, and they should just make a note not to do anything soap-opera-y with her ever again.

If nothing else, I think putting her back in Catwoman’s book would be a great idea,

[Bat-Meal]

So if Leslie and Alfred are dead, is Gordon dead too? Haven't see him in a while.

[Tzigone]

If nothing else, I think putting her back in Catwoman’s book would be a great idea,

I like some of what she could do in a Catwoman book. But I don't like her primary/firstly Bruce's confidant and then in Selina's book, if you know what I mean? Hand me down supporting cast instead of her own and, more importantly, closer to Bruce than Selina in most common setup for the character. Also, I don't generally like her as Bruce's confidant and certainly not as someone involved since his childhood (then again, I don't even prefer Alfred put into Bruce's childhood, and I know I'm in the minority there). I like the idea of her (or someone) being good in crime alley and remembering the good (or at least not bad) people there. And adult friend/ally who doesn't know secret identity works. But as someone lecturing Bruce, no. So I guess I more like the idea of what she originally was when she just a two-shot character, but have less interest in what she became.

[SiegePerilous02]

She's ok. I like her, but I don't view her as one of the essentials and can live without her.

She definitely got a raw deal in War Games though. Thank God that was undone.

[Tzigone]

She's ok. I like her, but I don't view her as one of the essentials and can live without her.

She definitely got a raw deal in War Games though. Thank God that was undone.

War Games/War Crimes - where Bruce, Steph, and Leslie all came out looking absolutely horrible. And written for no other reason than the shocking death of Robin (again!). Plus, Steph got a raw deal in the issues leading up to it to have her grab the idiot ball for the sake of the plot (and again, Bruce was terrible to her and to Tim). As, really, Jason kinda got a violent streak to set up the plot for when he got killed. Terrible story idea altogether.

[Frontier]

I like some of what she could do in a Catwoman book. But I don't like her primary/firstly Bruce's confidant and then in Selina's book, if you know what I mean? Hand me down supporting cast instead of her own and, more importantly, closer to Bruce than Selina in most common setup for the character. Also, I don't generally like her as Bruce's confidant and certainly not as someone involved since his childhood (then again, I don't even prefer Alfred put into Bruce's childhood, and I know I'm in the minority there). I like the idea of her (or someone) being good in crime alley and remembering the good (or at least not bad) people there. And adult friend/ally who doesn't know secret identity works. But as someone lecturing Bruce, no. So I guess I more like the idea of what she originally was when she just a two-shot character, but have less interest in what she became.

I don't know if it's an instance of a hand-me-down supporting character so much as just playing with the people who live in Gotham and are relevant to that characters' headspace and world in said city.

[Tzigone]

I don't know if it's an instance of a hand-me-down supporting character so much as just playing with the people who live in Gotham and are relevant to that characters' headspace and world in said city.

It's a large city, I'm sure they could find some people (characters) that don't already have a connection to pre-existing (more important) characters. Especially ones as emotionally close as Leslie has been at times. I get the crossover appeal to bring fans, and I can even see the practical uses, but I generally think if they actually want to make the character independent (which, to be fair, they don't with Catwoman) developing their own supporting cast that is only theirs is better. I'm against the idea of Lana as supporting cast to Steel for similar reasons. Though Lana is, IMO, a much more known character and more strongly identified with Superman and less likely to ever be "let go" of by the Superman mythos.

I just really think it would behoove her to have the characters closest to her not first be close to Bruce. To not be his first. I feel similarly about the spinoff heroes not getting Sivana Jr. as their villains, if you know what I mean. Or every Super getting a Luthor. Now I ship BatCat, so I don't want them totally separate. But I don't want everything and everyone in her life to be about Bruce and through Bruce, when he has so much in his life that has nothing to do with her*. Like I don't really like Selina and Lois becoming close friends just because their lovers are and think it would better for the idea that they have lives outside their men if they have other women as bffs. Especially Selina, who isn't married to Bruce and sometimes has her own comic. But her last BFF went all murderous, so...

* It's a result of her being a supporting character for him, of course. But if she's having a solo, I think having her crew that is primarily hers is a good thing. And even for supporting characters, I like a mention of other people they hang out with that aren't the hero's folks. Just so we can feel like they have other things going on other people that matter, even if we don't see those things or people.

[Frontier]

It's a large city, I'm sure they could find some people (characters) that don't already have a connection to pre-existing (more important) characters. Especially ones as emotionally close as Leslie has been at times. I get the crossover appeal to bring fans, and I can even see the practical uses, but I generally think if they actually want to make the character independent (which, to be fair, they don't with Catwoman) developing their own supporting cast that is only theirs is better. I'm against the idea of Lana as supporting cast to Steel for similar reasons. Though Lana is, IMO, a much more known character and more strongly identified with Superman and less likely to ever be "let go" of by the Superman mythos.

I just really think it would behoove her to have the characters closest to her not first be close to Bruce. To not be his first. I feel similarly about the spinoff heroes not getting Sivana Jr. as their villains, if you know what I mean. Or every Super getting a Luthor. Now I ship BatCat, so I don't want them totally separate. But I don't want everything and everyone in her life to be about Bruce and through Bruce, when he has so much in his life that has nothing to do with her*. Like I don't really like Selina and Lois becoming close friends just because their lovers are and think it would better for the idea that they have lives outside their men if they have other women as bffs. Especially Selina, who isn't married to Bruce and sometimes has her own comic. But her last BFF went all murderous, so...

* It's a result of her being a supporting character for him, of course. But if she's having a solo, I think having her crew that is primarily hers is a good thing. And even for supporting characters, I like a mention of other people they hang out with that aren't the hero's folks. Just so we can feel like they have other things going on other people that matter, even if we don't see those things or people.

If you're building a cohesive and connected universe within a family of titles in a city I think it makes more sense to have certain characters bounce between titles and interact with other characters. It's not like Selina didn't have her own supporting cast on-top of that anyways, what with Holly, her girlfriend, and Slam (or Batman when he periodically appeared).

[kjn]

I think a character like Leslie Thompkins is necessary for a well-rounded approach to Batman and Gotham. But I'm not sure DC is interested in, or currently even capable, of a well-rounded approach to Batman and Gotham. Right now, DC doesn't tolerate any challenges to Batman's moral stature, and doing that is exactly Leslie Thompkins's raison d'être.

[Restingvoice]

So if Leslie and Alfred are dead, is Gordon dead too? Haven't see him in a while.

Leslie lives. Her death was in a simulation to test Batman's resolve.

Gordon's in Batgirl, recovering after being infected by Batman Who Laughs.

I think a character like Leslie Thompkins is necessary for a well-rounded approach to Batman and Gotham. But I'm not sure DC is interested in, or currently even capable, of a well-rounded approach to Batman and Gotham. Right now, DC doesn't tolerate any challenges to Batman's moral stature, and doing that is exactly Leslie Thompkins's raison d'être.

Oh is that why they keep trying to make Red Hood join the villain side

[Frontier]

I think a character like Leslie Thompkins is necessary for a well-rounded approach to Batman and Gotham. But I'm not sure DC is interested in, or currently even capable, of a well-rounded approach to Batman and Gotham. Right now, DC doesn't tolerate any challenges to Batman's moral stature, and doing that is exactly Leslie Thompkins's raison d'être.

I'm not sure, it feels like we have had characters challenging Batman's methods and effectiveness for decades now. Maybe not Leslie but it feels like practically every time Barbara and Bruce interact it's her calling him out for something.