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  1. #1
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    Exclamation What do you mean expect to happen if OMD gets reversed?

    This is a question that really needs to be answered, so that we can all reach a consensus.

    I mostly hear about OMD in terms of the marriage, but what other things did it affect, and what would undoing OMD as a whole cause?

  2. #2
    Fantastic Member Spidey_62's Avatar
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    I don't know if I expect it to get reversed, but I do expect it to be addressed finally. Like I said in the Nick Spencer interview thread- I really think the big sin Peter doesn't remember that Kindred refers to is the deal with Mephisto in OMD. There's been too many hints and nudges to the effect in this run for it not to be somehow related to Peter finally being confronted with that choice he made there. Given what Nick Spencer says in this interview, I think it's not too far fetched at all and especially so because much like with the Kindred identity mystery- he gave us the clues and played it pretty straight from there.

    Plus with the solicitations for the last chapters of Last Remains, it mentions how it will change the way we see Peter and Spider-Man- if he's forced to remember what's been buried and realize what he did I can see that being pretty devastating to him in terms of what he's supposed to represent. That really would be one of the worst things Harry could throw at Peter, because it really highlights the hypocrisy as he says he wants to show Peter. Harry is protective of MJ and the fact that Peter gave her love away, literally to the devil, I could see that pissing him off. I think the thing will be that Peter has to reassess who he is, because Nick Spencer said how he's surprised how things seem to get pushed under the rug despite being about responsibility. We saw a little bit of that in the very first issue in fact with using Otto's work coming to bite Peter in the butt finally.
    Last edited by Spidey_62; 10-16-2020 at 09:33 PM.

  3. #3
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    The problem I always had with the “plagiarism” angle is that short of revealing his identity, there really wasn’t much he could do about it beyond doing nothing which is something I’d hate even more. He honestly gets too much hate for it already.

    Peter always runs away from power rather than denying it outright. That’s what made his dismantling of Parker Industries so infuriating to me.

  4. #4
    Mighty Member Vortex85's Avatar
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    Honestly I don't expect it to be reversed. Addressed, yes, hopefully. Reversed? Highly Unlikely.

    I can imagine but I don't really want to imagine in my head or dream because I don't want to set myself up for any sort of disappointment.

    Let me be clear what I mean by that,
    Reversed - the deal with Mephisto is undone by means of magic and the marriage is restored / or Mephisto is defeated and Peter and MJ get married again
    Addressed - the deal is made known so that consequences of it can manifest, Peter/MJ can deal with the fallout and confront what happened and it impacts them in a deep and meaningful way

  5. #5
    Fantastic Member Spidey_62's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    Honestly I don't expect it to be reversed. Addressed, yes, hopefully. Reversed? Highly Unlikely.

    I can imagine but I don't really want to imagine in my head or dream because I don't want to set myself up for any sort of disappointment.

    Let me be clear what I mean by that,
    Reversed - the deal with Mephisto is undone by means of magic and the marriage is restored / or Mephisto is defeated and Peter and MJ get married again
    Addressed - the deal is made known so that consequences of it can manifest, Peter/MJ can deal with the fallout and confront what happened and it impacts them in a deep and meaningful way
    Yeah, exactly. I don't think you can really go forward with Peter and MJ again unless they reckon with that first- as seemingly hinted in a meta way with Kindred plotting to keep MJ away from Peter as they were finally reconciling again. It's the big bad black cloud that follows them.

  6. #6
    Amazing Member Dzika_Sowa's Avatar
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    I don't expect spider-marriage to come back and honestly, I don't want it to come back. People can love each other without marriage, it's pointless for me.

    What I want it's an epic story, with Peter and MJ outsmarting Mephisto. I want high stakes, maybe let Aunt May die finally, let it be a lesson in responsibility for Peter (not a gruesome death of course, something like #300)

    Later... I don't know. Let the next writer or Spencer decide that.

  7. #7
    Fantastic Member Yvonmukluk's Avatar
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    I feel like the most logical thing is to do a reverse-OMIT and make it so everyone remembers Peter & MJ were married, but thinks they just had a mundane break-up/divorce (ITSV shows people are willing to accept that as a valid Spider-Man), and that they then get back together again. To Renew Their Vows, if you will. And unlike the first OMIT, you don't have to insert a bunch of retcons into previous stories to make it make sense (like say, the whole deal of whether or not Baby May existed, or how integral the marriage was to Kraven's Last Hunt) - just say after Aunt May gets shot, Peter pushes MJ away to try and protect her.

    Peter & MJ themselves would remember the whole deal and its consequences, but given they found one another exactly like MJ predicted, their relationship would still be strong. Future writers can then decide to ignore or downplay it as they desire.

    And speaking of Baby May, if you're dusting off old concepts that got forgotten, perhaps she can get brought back. Just say in the re-retconned universe Norman had her in a tube, Europe, or a tube in Europe, and have her get rescued. That seems like a good pre-emptive tie-in to ITSV2, given how Peter's arc ended there and I wouldn't be surprised if he's got a kid the next movie. Plus it gives something new that hasn't really been done with marriage before, outside of the 2 or 3 Mr. & Mrs. Spider-Man stories from Spider-Man Family. And you don't have to another pregnancy storyline. A lot of Peter's contemporaries have kids of their own, so it doesn't really make him seem all that older than he's already depicted, IMO. And even if you think it does, Miles is right there to be the embodiment of the young Spider-Man.

    But that might be my rabid Spider-Girl fandom talking.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yvonmukluk View Post
    I feel like the most logical thing is to do a reverse-OMIT and make it so everyone remembers Peter & MJ were married, but thinks they just had a mundane break-up/divorce (ITSV shows people are willing to accept that as a valid Spider-Man), and that they then get back together again. To Renew Their Vows, if you will. And unlike the first OMIT, you don't have to insert a bunch of retcons into previous stories to make it make sense (like say, the whole deal of whether or not Baby May existed, or how integral the marriage was to Kraven's Last Hunt) - just say after Aunt May gets shot, Peter pushes MJ away to try and protect her.

    Peter & MJ themselves would remember the whole deal and its consequences, but given they found one another exactly like MJ predicted, their relationship would still be strong. Future writers can then decide to ignore or downplay it as they desire.

    And speaking of Baby May, if you're dusting off old concepts that got forgotten, perhaps she can get brought back. Just say in the re-retconned universe Norman had her in a tube, Europe, or a tube in Europe, and have her get rescued. That seems like a good pre-emptive tie-in to ITSV2, given how Peter's arc ended there and I wouldn't be surprised if he's got a kid the next movie. Plus it gives something new that hasn't really been done with marriage before, outside of the 2 or 3 Mr. & Mrs. Spider-Man stories from Spider-Man Family. And you don't have to another pregnancy storyline. A lot of Peter's contemporaries have kids of their own, so it doesn't really make him seem all that older than he's already depicted, IMO. And even if you think it does, Miles is right there to be the embodiment of the young Spider-Man.

    But that might be my rabid Spider-Girl fandom talking.
    The 900 Pound Gorilla on the back of Marvel is what do we do about Spider-Man ( and Peter’s age).,This has been the issue going all the way back to the Clone Saga and Ben Reilly. Why? Because Spider-Man has been the symbol of Marvel as well as a huge money maker ( movies, cartoons merchandise and comics ( I would bet comic sales are the least profitable). The answer is Spider-Man can keep going ( even if it is not Peter Parker). Obviously Miles, but even Miguel and Gwen. They have learned that because of stories like Into The Spider Verse and Life Story that if well done ( and that is obviously important ( what created the problem was poorly conceived stories ( like Clone Saga)) people will accept Peter dying and Miles taking over. Does that mean Peter dies? Not necessarily. Marvel could bring Annie from the Renew Your Vows Universe and have Peter older then 30 ( a point I made before), or decide to retire him in say Amazing 1000, let Miles take over and see how it goes. Does it mean it would work? Not necessarily ( anyone who is familiar with New Coke knows what I mean ( if not read about it on Wikipedia). But the fact they are putting Miles in the MCU is proof they are at least considering him taking over.
    Last edited by NC_Yankee; 10-17-2020 at 05:04 AM.

  9. #9
    Amazing Member Dzika_Sowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    The 900 Pound Gorilla on the back of Marvel is what do we do about Spider-Man ( and Peter’s age).,This has been the issue going all the way back to the Clone Saga and Ben Reilly. Why? Because Spider-Man has been the symbol of Marvel as well as a huge money maker ( movies, cartoons merchandise and comics ( I would bet comic sales are the least profitable). The answer is Spider-Man can keep going ( even if it is not Peter Parker). Obviously Miles, but even Miguel and Gwen. They have learned that because of stories like Into The Spider Verse and Life Story that if well done ( and that is obviously important ( what created the problem was poorly conceived stories ( like Clone Saga)) people will accept Peter dying and Miles taking over. Does that mean Peter dies? Not necessarily. Marvel could bring Annie from the Renew Your Vows Universe and have Peter older then 30 ( a point I made before), or decide to retire him in say Amazing 1000, let Miles take over and see how it goes. Does it mean it would work? Not necessarily ( anyone who is familiar with New Coke knows what I mean ( if not read about it on Wikipedia). But the fact they are putting Miles in the MCU is proof they are at least considering him taking over.
    I wonder if Stories with Peter the Spider-Padre would be any good. I liked Renew Your Vows when it started, but I was quickly bored with the stories.

    Then, I remember loving every issue of Spider-Girl that I've read.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzika_Sowa View Post
    I wonder if Stories with Peter the Spider-Padre would be any good. I liked Renew Your Vows when it started, but I was quickly bored with the stories.

    Then, I remember loving every issue of Spider-Girl that I've read.
    We are already seeing Peter as “Spider-Padre in Fantastic Four and Marvel Zombies. Everything depends on the stories.

  11. #11
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    Only potential problem with undoing OMD and OMIT is that you would still have to explain how Peter got his secret identity back after Civil War.

    OMD honestly screwed up the continuity more indirectly than it did directly. The events leading up to OMD (the unmasking, the additional powers, etc.) only happened in the first place because the writers knew OMD was coming. Those are now the events that would cause the most head-scratchers if OMD was reversed tomorrow. It's easier to imagine how the Slott era played out with Peter and MJ married the whole time than it is to imagine what exactly happened after Civil War without Mephisto.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 10-17-2020 at 05:42 AM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Only potential problem with undoing OMD and OMIT is that you would still have to explain how Peter got his secret identity back after Civil War.

    OMD honestly screwed up the continuity more indirectly than it did directly. The events leading up to OMD (the unmasking, the additional powers, etc.) only happened in the first place because the writers knew OMD was coming. Those are now the events that would cause the most head-scratchers if OMD was reversed tomorrow. It's easier to imagine how the Slott era played out with Peter and MJ married the whole time than it is to imagine what exactly happened after Civil War without Mephisto.
    I would add Aunt May living instead of joining Uncle Ben as well. One possibility is Spencer could simply use Mephisto’s death as an excuse to get rid of OMD while keeping the identity secret and Aunt May alive? One point I have made over and over is why did Mephisto want the marriage ended? I have guessed that it has a lot to do with Harry becoming his lackey. Maybe that was what Harry got in exchange for serving Mephisto?
    Last edited by NC_Yankee; 10-17-2020 at 06:16 AM.

  13. #13
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Considering the damage that OMD did:
    Godfather Vito Massacred Boy Meme.jpg

    OMD created a permanent lasting status-quo in Spider-Man. What it did was, it made Spider-Man's continuity a thing where nothing matters. No matter what happens, no matter how many writers come and go, Peter will mostly always be reset to a certain version of him (which Marvel openly refers to as "Factory Defaults"). So nothing is meant to stick and last. Whereas before OMD, with the marriage you did have that sense of something sticking and lasting. Remember until the 90s Clone Saga or the second clone saga, the Spider-Man continuity had realism and consequences. Characters who died stayed dead, there were never any retcons as such, stuff carried over and continuity was progressive and forward-facing. The Second Clone Saga destroyed those norms, and where JMS and others seemed to try and repair it...OMD doubled down on that to the extent that it's impossible to go back as long as it remains enforced.

    So removing OMD is essential for 616 Spider-Man to feel relevant and consequential and for the continuity to truly represent what it is in the wider franchise, the home of the original Spider-Man of AF#15 filled with ideas, pathways, and concepts for multiple stories and adventures as he grows up. With OMD, Quesada and others at Marvel, wedded a conception of Spider-Man dating to 2000 (Spider-Man is about youth, demonstrably not the viewpoint about Spider-Man by Lee/Ditko/Stern and others) and imposed it permanently on the continuity and they did that for the sake of present grudges rather than any real conception of the future (though of course they said that as justification).

    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    Let me be clear what I mean by that,
    Reversed - the deal with Mephisto is undone by means of magic and the marriage is restored / or Mephisto is defeated and Peter and MJ get married again
    Addressed - the deal is made known so that consequences of it can manifest, Peter/MJ can deal with the fallout and confront what happened and it impacts them in a deep and meaningful way
    This is pretty succinct. In so far as consensus goes, I would say this covers the definitions of "Reversed" and "Addressed" pretty well.

    Speaking personally, Ideally I would like "Addressed and Reversed" above all.
    -- I want Spider-Man to learn about this, go nuts, and then put together a team comprising himself, Loki (that deal that he offered back in JMS' run), Doctor Strange, Doctor Doom, Ghost Rider, Silver Surfer to team up and march into Hell and destroy and kill Mephisto (with Doom being the one to do it after Spider-Man chickens out at the last moment y'know, for brand reasons). Mephisto is an obnoxious and terrible villain at the best of times, killing him off for a short period and leaving hell under new management would be a good hook for stories for the cosmic-magic side, and not a great loss. It would also be a great action series, would sell well and attract a big audience.
    -- Spider-Man and Mary Jane than confront one another and wonder if they should get married again given all they went through once and so on. Eventually they do, and in the process the couple confront issues about whether Peter's relationships with Carlie, MJ's relationships with Bobby count as adultery since it took place after OMD when they were married but they were living together and broken up when it happened...and then eventually they get married again.

    I am okay with it being "Reversed without being Addressed".
    -- As far as Reversal goes. I don't see anything too complicated in this. It's a single issue's work. Simply have Peter and MJ in the current titles get married. As soon as they say "I do" and are pronounced husband and wife, let them kiss...and then they have a look where they realize they remember and MJ says "I told you we'd get back". And that's it. Mephisto sulks offscreen and decides that the entire thing (a cosmic being working to fix details in Spider-Man's life) took much of his time and he moves on.

    As for it being Addressed without any condition of Reversal
    -- I think the minute you address the story, you are setting the table for reversal one way or another. Reversal might not happen right away.
    -- Once addressed, Peter and MJ would have to reassess the relationships they had since OMD with Carlie, with Bobby (in MJ's case), and so on and so forth.
    -- They would have two versions of their memories...one in which they were married and one in which they are single and emotionally it's not the same, it'll be like remembering a second life at the same time as you are living one.
    -- Dramatically as a writer, Spencer will love exploring this.

    Ultimately it's not Spencer's decision, no matter how much he would prefer it (as he seems to), to reverse this. But by addressing it and exploring the consequences and the responses by audiences, and so on...the fact that Quesada is no longer Chief Creative Officer (which means that over the last few months, his name doesn't appear on the credits of any Marvel comic which makes me quite happy as a whole), that could set the ball rolling.

    One way or another, the hope of the OMD people, i.e. the marriage goes away and never becomes an issue again...that hasn't happened, that isn't happening, and that will never happen. It'll never go away.

  14. #14
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    The best option to OMD was for Marvel to end Earth-616 following the Marvel Civil War story arc. Marvel could have created a new timeline that took place right after the events of the first Marvel Superhero Secret Wars. This timeline would make Peter Parker single before he even got married. This would also mean that no characters who have died would come back from the dead. Thus Jean Grey would not come back for X-Factor. It would be as follows for X-Factor:

    1. Rachel Summers
    2. Scott Summers
    3. Hank McCoy
    4. The Angel
    5. Ice Man



    Norman Osborn would remain dead as well. In a since, Marvel could have created a timeline that took place around 1984 and moved on from there.

  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Only potential problem with undoing OMD and OMIT is that you would still have to explain how Peter got his secret identity back after Civil War.

    OMD honestly screwed up the continuity more indirectly than it did directly. The events leading up to OMD (the unmasking, the additional powers, etc.) only happened in the first place because the writers knew OMD was coming. Those are now the events that would cause the most head-scratchers if OMD was reversed tomorrow. It's easier to imagine how the Slott era played out with Peter and MJ married the whole time than it is to imagine what exactly happened after Civil War without Mephisto.
    Correct me if I am wrong, but according to you, "Reversing OMD" means going back and making out that the deal never happened and that Peter and MJ were married all through BND and so on. That's quite a bit different than how I concieve it.

    Redoing the continuity that fashion imo, would essentially be repeating the same mistake that OMD and OMIT did, i.e. trying to gaslight fans into going along with the fallacy that the stories with a married Peter-MJ would be essentially the same if they were single and living together. Sure I'd be on board with redoing and/or deleting BND and Slott if I think it would be something you could get away with it...but I don't think it would be fair.

    For me "reversing OMD" means we have the MJ and Peter in current continuity get married and remember the original Pre-OMD continuity. That way every story Pre-OMD, every story Post-OMD and Pre-Reverse, all happened and stay in continuity for writers to refer to as-written and as-intended going forward.

    As for CIVIL WAR and the identity reveal...that's a minor issue. In Charles Soule's run, he had Daredevil erase his identity by using the Purple Man hypnotize everyone. That incidentally was how David Michelinie planned to do his rejected unmasked Peter pitch in the 90s. There was never a real need for a magical solution.

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