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  1. #16
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    Frankly, Spider-man continuity has become such a mess that I wouldn't mind if they did away with the whole thing and started fresh.

    The problem with OMD is that, in the context of continuity, it reads like an unresolved storyline rather than a reboot: Peter and MJ lost to Mephisto, and are currently living in a warped 616 reality. I know people who weren't fans of the marriage are willing to look the other way, but IMO there's a lot of unresolved baggage in the current status quo that a full on reboot would have prevented.

    As far as addressing the storyline, I've always said that they shouldn't "undo" OMD (as in reset back to 2007, and say they were married all along), but should instead merge the two timelines by having Peter and MJ regain their memories.

    As far as having them remarry: if Peter and MJ were to remember, it would be true to their characters to have them remarry at some point, but I don't expect it to happen. I expect them to decide to "take it slow" and continue dating until another writer comes along and decides to break them up for whatever reason.
    Last edited by Spider-Tiger; 10-17-2020 at 08:33 AM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    I know people who weren't fans of the marriage are willing to look the other way, but IMO there's a lot of unresolved baggage in the current status quo that a full on reboot would have prevented.
    That was never really an option. Because numerically and empirically speaking, fans of the marriage are bigger and greater than the reverse.

    The Spider-Marriage was the biggest comic event of the '80s in terms of a comics event pertaining to comics versions of the characters (newspaper and main continuity) becoming national news. That was the first time it happened, the second time being The Death of Superman. Something that made such a big real world impact can't simply be done away with. It was historic. The only other events that made headlines like that was CIVIL WAR with the unmasking and Miles Morales' debut, and even those two weren't as big.

    So the marriage can never entirely go away. Nor can the continuity move forward from it in any sense. Mary Jane is the second biggest character in Spider-Man in terms of appearances, she's the co-protagonist of the continuity, so she can't be done away with. She's so popular that no other love interest will come close. So there's not much of any sense in pretending otherwise.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Considering the damage that OMD did:
    Attachment 101521

    OMD created a permanent lasting status-quo in Spider-Man. What it did was, it made Spider-Man's continuity a thing where nothing matters. No matter what happens, no matter how many writers come and go, Peter will mostly always be reset to a certain version of him (which Marvel openly refers to as "Factory Defaults"). So nothing is meant to stick and last. Whereas before OMD, with the marriage you did have that sense of something sticking and lasting. Remember until the 90s Clone Saga or the second clone saga, the Spider-Man continuity had realism and consequences. Characters who died stayed dead, there were never any retcons as such, stuff carried over and continuity was progressive and forward-facing. The Second Clone Saga destroyed those norms, and where JMS and others seemed to try and repair it...OMD doubled down on that to the extent that it's impossible to go back as long as it remains enforced.

    So removing OMD is essential for 616 Spider-Man to feel relevant and consequential and for the continuity to truly represent what it is in the wider franchise, the home of the original Spider-Man of AF#15 filled with ideas, pathways, and concepts for multiple stories and adventures as he grows up. With OMD, Quesada and others at Marvel, wedded a conception of Spider-Man dating to 2000 (Spider-Man is about youth, demonstrably not the viewpoint about Spider-Man by Lee/Ditko/Stern and others) and imposed it permanently on the continuity and they did that for the sake of present grudges rather than any real conception of the future (though of course they said that as justification).



    This is pretty succinct. In so far as consensus goes, I would say this covers the definitions of "Reversed" and "Addressed" pretty well.

    Speaking personally, Ideally I would like "Addressed and Reversed" above all.
    -- I want Spider-Man to learn about this, go nuts, and then put together a team comprising himself, Loki (that deal that he offered back in JMS' run), Doctor Strange, Doctor Doom, Ghost Rider, Silver Surfer to team up and march into Hell and destroy and kill Mephisto (with Doom being the one to do it after Spider-Man chickens out at the last moment y'know, for brand reasons). Mephisto is an obnoxious and terrible villain at the best of times, killing him off for a short period and leaving hell under new management would be a good hook for stories for the cosmic-magic side, and not a great loss. It would also be a great action series, would sell well and attract a big audience.
    -- Spider-Man and Mary Jane than confront one another and wonder if they should get married again given all they went through once and so on. Eventually they do, and in the process the couple confront issues about whether Peter's relationships with Carlie, MJ's relationships with Bobby count as adultery since it took place after OMD when they were married but they were living together and broken up when it happened...and then eventually they get married again.

    I am okay with it being "Reversed without being Addressed".
    -- As far as Reversal goes. I don't see anything too complicated in this. It's a single issue's work. Simply have Peter and MJ in the current titles get married. As soon as they say "I do" and are pronounced husband and wife, let them kiss...and then they have a look where they realize they remember and MJ says "I told you we'd get back". And that's it. Mephisto sulks offscreen and decides that the entire thing (a cosmic being working to fix details in Spider-Man's life) took much of his time and he moves on.

    As for it being Addressed without any condition of Reversal
    -- I think the minute you address the story, you are setting the table for reversal one way or another. Reversal might not happen right away.
    -- Once addressed, Peter and MJ would have to reassess the relationships they had since OMD with Carlie, with Bobby (in MJ's case), and so on and so forth.
    -- They would have two versions of their memories...one in which they were married and one in which they are single and emotionally it's not the same, it'll be like remembering a second life at the same time as you are living one.
    -- Dramatically as a writer, Spencer will love exploring this.

    Ultimately it's not Spencer's decision, no matter how much he would prefer it (as he seems to), to reverse this. But by addressing it and exploring the consequences and the responses by audiences, and so on...the fact that Quesada is no longer Chief Creative Officer (which means that over the last few months, his name doesn't appear on the credits of any Marvel comic which makes me quite happy as a whole), that could set the ball rolling.

    One way or another, the hope of the OMD people, i.e. the marriage goes away and never becomes an issue again...that hasn't happened, that isn't happening, and that will never happen. It'll never go away.
    The best news is actually Quesada is gone. Maybe just maybe we can see OMD go straight back to where it belongs. The trash can.

  4. #19
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    Maybe someone can enlighten me on this as I don’t keep up with any other marvel titles, but isn’t Mephisto no longer running hell? I believe it’s one of the Ghost Riders? I wonder if this could play into undoing OMD? Bringing Doctor Strange in, as well as the solicits for upcoming issues about “bringing the fight to Kindred” makes me think Peter and Doctor Strange will travel to hell.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forty20 View Post
    Maybe someone can enlighten me on this as I don’t keep up with any other marvel titles, but isn’t Mephisto no longer running hell? I believe it’s one of the Ghost Riders? I wonder if this could play into undoing OMD? Bringing Doctor Strange in, as well as the solicits for upcoming issues about “bringing the fight to Kindred” makes me think Peter and Doctor Strange will travel to hell.
    Mephisto is dead ( for now at least) and Quesada is gone ( again for now at least), so it should be easier to get rid of OMD.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forty20 View Post
    Maybe someone can enlighten me on this as I don’t keep up with any other marvel titles, but isn’t Mephisto no longer running hell? I believe it’s one of the Ghost Riders? I wonder if this could play into undoing OMD? Bringing Doctor Strange in, as well as the solicits for upcoming issues about “bringing the fight to Kindred” makes me think Peter and Doctor Strange will travel to hell.
    Yeah, but he was still making deals and machinations before his apparent death, since even if he was no longer running hell, he was still an incredibly powerful and influential demon, in reputation alone if nothing else. As for bringing in Ghost Rider/Johnny Blaze as the current King of Hell, that could be a good twist, especially if Blaze tears into Peter for making the same mistake he did all those years ago and expecting it not to backfire on him.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Yeah, but he was still making deals and machinations before his apparent death, since even if he was no longer running hell, he was still an incredibly powerful and influential demon, in reputation alone if nothing else. As for bringing in Ghost Rider/Johnny Blaze as the current King of Hell, that could be a good twist, especially if Blaze tears into Peter for making the same mistake he did all those years ago and expecting it not to backfire on him.
    Yay! More "Peter" torture porn!

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Yeah, but he was still making deals and machinations before his apparent death, since even if he was no longer running hell, he was still an incredibly powerful and influential demon, in reputation alone if nothing else. As for bringing in Ghost Rider/Johnny Blaze as the current King of Hell, that could be a good twist, especially if Blaze tears into Peter for making the same mistake he did all those years ago and expecting it not to backfire on him.
    That would be a great twist with the OMD/Ghost Rider comparison. So Mephisto in current continuity is still dead? Last thing I’m aware of with Mephisto is that Doctor Strange “Damnation” storyline set in Vegas. I apologize for my lack of up to date knowledge with the wider Marvel universe.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Yay! More "Peter" torture porn!
    Not really what I meant. I was thinking more of a verbal thing than any physical violence on Blaze's part, even if his wording would be harsher than Strange's was, the basic point being that Peter bargained with a demon, the in-universe stand-in for the Prince of Lies himself, to evade the consequences of his own poor judgment (in trusting Tony Stark enough to unmask to the general public during Civil War, which led to the Kingpin being able to send a sniper to kill him and instead hitting his Aunt May).

    Quote Originally Posted by Forty20 View Post
    That would be a great twist with the OMD/Ghost Rider comparison. So Mephisto in current continuity is still dead? Last thing I’m aware of with Mephisto is that Doctor Strange “Damnation” storyline set in Vegas. I apologize for my lack of up to date knowledge with the wider Marvel universe.
    Yeah, he died --- multiple times, multiple versions of him --- in the latest Avengers arc by Jason Aaron, Age of Khonshu. He'll most likely be back, though.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  10. #25
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    Just now realized “Damnation” was written by Donny Cates and Nick Spencer! This would be a great time to bring Mephisto back in.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forty20 View Post
    Just now realized “Damnation” was written by Donny Cates and Nick Spencer! This would be a great time to bring Mephisto back in.
    Uh-huh. I could see some elements of that work their way into this, considering Doctor Strange was involved in both Damnation and now Last Remains.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  12. #27
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    I think it will finally get addressed and Peter will have to face the consequences of it all.
    It just means we can finally move on from it if we get some sort of closure...

  13. #28
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    Peter Parker stands in his bathroom in a tattered Spider-Man costume with bags under his eyes and sweat dripping off his forehead. He takes off his mask and puts a hand to his cheek, just to make sure he's real. He looks at himself in the mirror, and only sees the full consequences of his actions.

    Peter Parker gave up his marriage for the economy.

    Could he have done anything else? He was ostracized from his peers, his aunt was on the brink of death, and more importantly, the economy approached disaster. More than any mere recession, this cataclysm was going to lead to societal collapse. Peter knew this. He knew that corporate greed was a greater evil than any demon, and that if the economy was to be saved, a price had to be paid.

    The crimson clad creature appeared before the man of action, and the offer was made. The artificial construct of human mate binding in exchange for a true hell on Earth being demoted to the previously and quite brilliantly foreshadowed mere recession. It had been done. Mephisto had changed the past, present, and the future. Spider-Man saved the economy. He saved all that matters.

    Or did he?

    Was what was there really worth saving? Do people not struggle for their basic needs? Do they not spend their years in some hollow simulacrim of life? Did Parker truly save anything? Or did he simply delay the inevitable? Did he delay what was needed? He doesn't get to the ask those questions now. He doesn't deserve to. He made the call. He had the power. It was his responsibility. And how is the economy all this time later?

    Parker couldn't afford to keep up with his own comics if he tried.

    That delicate dance. The cycle of profit that keeps the great machine churning. No matter how loud it howls and hisses, it will always continue. That is what was thought. But what actually is, the naked truth that unfurls itself before one Peter Parker, is this.

    If Spider-Man can't afford Spider-Man, then there is no Spider-Man.

    And so Peter Parker began to fade away as his body froze and decayed. What were his last thoughts? He didn't want anyone to know. He couldn't protect what was important. He couldn't protect the economy. He may as well have never been born. And in the minds of those who truly matter, he never was.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but according to you, "Reversing OMD" means going back and making out that the deal never happened and that Peter and MJ were married all through BND and so on. That's quite a bit different than how I concieve it.

    Redoing the continuity that fashion imo, would essentially be repeating the same mistake that OMD and OMIT did, i.e. trying to gaslight fans into going along with the fallacy that the stories with a married Peter-MJ would be essentially the same if they were single and living together. Sure I'd be on board with redoing and/or deleting BND and Slott if I think it would be something you could get away with it...but I don't think it would be fair.

    For me "reversing OMD" means we have the MJ and Peter in current continuity get married and remember the original Pre-OMD continuity. That way every story Pre-OMD, every story Post-OMD and Pre-Reverse, all happened and stay in continuity for writers to refer to as-written and as-intended going forward.

    As for CIVIL WAR and the identity reveal...that's a minor issue. In Charles Soule's run, he had Daredevil erase his identity by using the Purple Man hypnotize everyone. That incidentally was how David Michelinie planned to do his rejected unmasked Peter pitch in the 90s. There was never a real need for a magical solution.
    I expect reversing OMD would look like something similar to Rebirth Superman where Mxyzptlk merges the two continuities and Clark remembers both (I guess more-or-less what you said). I don't expect them to retcon BND or pretend like they were married the whole time.

    Whatever happens, I think it's almost impossible to reverse OMD through a good story because I don't buy there is a story there to be told. With one exception that I'll get into below, any such story would still be stuck with three plot holes:

    1. A lack of a logical explanation to how Peter and MJ accepted the deal in the first place. (This was one of the other biggest criticisms of OMD at the time - not one bought that version of Peter/MJ would do it).

    2. A lack of a logical explanation to why Mephisto played fair. (In literally any other Mephisto story, Aunt May would have been hit by a bus a week after.)

    3. It not being clear enough what they lost - seriously, from Peter's POV and not ours as readers, what exactly did he lose? The reader lost 20 years of continuity and a mature-written Spider-Man. But Peter as a fictional character isn't aware/concerned with those things and is still together with MJ. Restoring the marriage is important due to the nature of Peter being a fictional character and the real-life consequences that OMD had. From a story perspective though, Peter played Mephisto by managing to save Aunt May while keeping MJ. Peter as a person can technically live happily after with MJ as long as they don't sign a marriage certificate.

    I just don't see how you can address those plot poles. Any story that undone OMD would have to conveniently ignore them or be an "ends justify the means" story designed to restore the marriage and nothing else (which is what OMD was) . I mean, the only way I can see those plot holes be addressed is if the story that undoes OMD is self-aware about the real-life background of OMD. For example, I can imagine Deadpool breaking the fourth wall and helping Spider-Man undo OMD.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 10-18-2020 at 07:47 AM.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I expect reversing OMD would look like something similar to Rebirth Superman where Mxyzptlk merges the two continuities and Clark remembers both (I guess more-or-less what you said). I don't expect them to retcon BND or pretend like they were married the whole time.
    Agreed.

    Whatever happens, I think it's almost impossible to reverse OMD through a good story because I don't buy there is a story there to be told.
    A great story undoing OMD would be one that sees Spider-Man march into hell and "attack and dethrone Mephisto" with the help of Doctor Doom and Doctor Strange, as a kind of sequel and update to the classic Triumph and Torment story. There would be a lot of fun to be had with that.

    1. A lack of a logical explanation to how Peter and MJ accepted the deal in the first place. (This was one of the other biggest criticisms of OMD at the time - not one bought that version of Peter/MJ would do it).

    2. A lack of a logical explanation to why Mephisto played fair. (In literally any other Mephisto story, Aunt May would have been hit by a bus a week after.)
    These are good points. I don't think it's totally unworkable but I concede they are issues to work around. At the very least they are story points worth addressing.

    3. It not being clear enough what they lost - seriously, from Peter's POV and not ours as readers, what exactly did he lose? The reader lost 20 years of continuity and a mature-written Spider-Man. But Peter as a fictional character isn't aware/concerned with those things and is still together with MJ. Restoring the marriage is important due to the nature of Peter being a fictional character and the real-life consequences that OMD had. From a story perspective though, Peter played Mephisto by managing to save Aunt May while keeping MJ. Peter as a person can technically live happily after with MJ as long as they don't sign a marriage certificate.
    Peter got gaslighted essentially into becoming a different version of himself. He got his memories and emotional growth stolen. Fundamentally marriage is just not the same as a committed relationship especially for a character like Peter. To know that you once made that committment and to have that undone is pretty cruel all things considered. So I'd say that the characters did lose a great deal.

    I mean, the only way I can see those plot holes be addressed is if the story that undoes OMD is self-aware about the real-life background of OMD. For example, I can imagine Deadpool breaking the fourth wall and helping Spider-Man undo OMD.
    Wouldn't be a bad idea, all things considered.

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