Marvel Comics did the legacy characters 10x better than DC Comics

[TheRay]

I don't think it's such a bad fate really. After all, some fantastic characters, like Red X started that way.

I don't see it changing either, but also it doesn't really have to. A lot of people just go by their headcanon anyway and there's nothing wrong with that either.

[sunofdarkchild]

Does DC have an example of an adult who took on an identity that had previously belonged to a child? Usually it's the other way around, a child taking another child's identity, or and adult taking another adult's identity. The only case I can think of is Marvel having Amanda Sefton take on Illyana Rasputin's identity as Magik.

[John Venus]

Oh, definitely on a creative level. The problem was that COIE was principally made to keep DC afloat, not to fix anything.

But those middle-aged people were annoyed that their favorites disappeared, which is the same exact reaction you're getting from a younger crowd over their own favorites being replaced in later years. If they weren't replaced in the first place back in the '80s, this thread would not exist.

Look, my idea has always been once you kill off or retire a superhero, that should be it. At least that's the way it was when I first started reading comics. However, if you're not going to permanently sideline them, then don't replace the characters in the first place. What's the point?

Unlike many of you here, I like and have bought numerous comic books featuring both the original and legacy characters and enjoyed them greatly. You will never see me disparage or put down any of the newer characters, either. Yeah, I have nostalgic feelings for the ones I grew up with, but that's to be expected.

The thing is, Mark Waid's Flash run showed us how you can have both the old and new co exist at the same time. So did James Robinson's Starman and at the very least the early parts of Geoff Johns' GL run. Those all came after COIE. We are *just* coming out of a period in the DCU where there was a clear deliberate attempt to sideline and outright a group of legacy heroes.

[John Venus]

It's kind of crazy to think that Teen Titans, one of the biggest properties DC has in other media through two extremely successful cartoons, was never capitalized onto the big screen and now Marvel is about to build up to a Young Avengers team first. This company is just full of missed opportunities all the way through when it comes to elevating the value of their legacy heroes

Yeah, when I got into DC, the legacy heroes and the rich sense of history from the distant past of WW2 to the far flung future of the 31st century was primary appeal. Now Marvel co-opted that and adapted it into their movies/shows to the point where if DC goes back to that, they will be accused of ripping of Marvel.

The silver lining for the Titans is that their cartoons have kept them alive and relevant for a younger audience while the comics seemed to be doing their best to sink the franchise. Titans getting killed off for shock value is a running joke at DC.

I agree that DC is just full of missed opportunities right now.

[The Darknight Detective]

The thing is, Mark Waid's Flash run showed us how you can have both the old and new co exist at the same time. So did James Robinson's Starman and at the very least the early parts of Geoff Johns' GL run. Those all came after COIE. We are *just* coming out of a period in the DCU where there was a clear deliberate attempt to sideline and outright a group of legacy heroes.

I haven't made an argument against legacies beyond their abilities to split the fandom, though. Creatively, there's no reason why they can't work just fine.

[TheRay]

I'll admit to being a "my Flash" type of person, but I don't think I let it get too out of hand.

[Sutekh]

Why should my favorite have to be relegated to that!!



For some of us, that would be fine, but others would disagree. For them, it's either their favorite GL/Flash/Batgirl/Robin/etc. at the forefront or bust! Frankly, I don't see this situation changing any time soon.

Yeah, fans are pretty territorial (self included) about stuff like that.

On the other hand, my favorite Robin straight-up abandoned the Robin identity and costume and changed his name to Nightwing, a legacy name from Bruce and Clark's costumed identities when they visited the bottle city of Kandor, so I'd probably be able to adjust if Green Kyle changed his name to Ion full-time or Wally West took on an identity other than Flash.

[The Darknight Detective]

Yeah, fans are pretty territorial (self included) about stuff like that.

On the other hand, my favorite Robin straight-up abandoned the Robin identity and costume and changed his name to Nightwing, a legacy name from Bruce and Clark's costumed identities when they visited the bottle city of Kandor, so I'd probably be able to adjust if Green Kyle changed his name to Ion full-time or Wally West took on an identity other than Flash.

I'm with you, though Dick Grayson is a special case since Bruce Wayne is never going to be permanently replaced. With that said, if there were any real chance of it happening, a lot of Dick's fans would have no problem tossing Nightwing's identity away for Batman's.

[skyvolt2000]

I haven't made an argument against legacies beyond their abilities to split the fandom, though. Creatively, there's no reason why they can't work just fine.

It is when fans and management fight against it.

Funny we can find decent writers and pitches for Hal, Barry and the classics.
Yet we can't do that for the diverse legacies who seem to stay in limbo or find bad writers.

Most of these guys did NOT cause the split of fandoms-those same fans who did nothing but attack legacies-fail to note one thing.

SALES.

Although in Hal's case GL spinoff two new titles-GL Mosaic and Warrior. Editor being a jerk derailed GLM and Warrior went 4 years.
That franchise has shown it can support multiple books yet management only wanted it about one guy.
Batman and Superman were straight up storyline and they were always coming back. Yet Steel, Superboy and Azrael had long solo runs.
Jaime and Cassandra hold the longest running Blue Beetle and Batgirl titles.

So what ticks off their fans is those guys sold and their rewards were to be tossed aside.
And for some odd reason DC can't find writers or pitches for those guys. Yet the classic can.

When was the last time Jaime Reyes has been seen BEYOND a cameo? Background? Did something meaningful?

Jason Rusch?? Because that is RONNIE in Justice League getting ignored. 5 years Jason has NOT been seen.

[The Darknight Detective]

I'll admit to being a "my Flash" type of person, but I don't think I let it get too out of hand.

We all have our preferences for whatever reasons. For me, it's the ones I grew up with during the Bronze Age. Still, I didn't stop reading and buying the comics of the ones replaced for new models. Even the terrible send-off for Hal didn't make me avoid reading Kyle or John later on.

[TheRay]

For me, it's like you said, I love the codenames and part of that is making each character feel unique.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Except they could have all been created without becoming legacies, but instead brand-new superheroes (unless you're saying their well-known codenames are much more important than their characterizations, of course).

Not really, no, at least not with the case of Wally. Wally West, when he was created, was not intended to take the place of Barry Allen because he was introduced all the way back in 1959. It wasn't until the 80s when he took over the role of Flash from Barry after the latter died in COIE. On top of that, Wally was literally created as a sidekick named "Kid Flash", i.e. the very epitome of being a legacy character.

And then on top of that, part of the appeal of Wally's tenure as Flash and in fact, a cornerstone of Wally's characterization was that he was stepping into the role of his mentor. That's part of what made Mark Waid's run compelling and attracted a lot of fans to the character. Wally tapped into the experiences of young adults filling roles once occupied by older mentors.

Kyle's characterization also hinged on being the only GL left after Hal blew up the Corps. And then he became a major player in the mythology because of that fact.

But the most important thing is that the existence of these characters adds to the mythos. It makes it more full and more fleshed out.

[The Darknight Detective]

Not really, no, at least not with the case of Wally. Wally West, when he was created, was not intended to take the place of Barry Allen because he was introduced all the way back in 1959. It wasn't until the 80s when he took over the role of Flash from Barry after the latter died in COIE. On top of that, Wally was literally created as a sidekick named "Kid Flash", i.e. the very epitome of being a legacy character.

And then on top of that, part of the appeal of Wally's tenure as Flash and in fact, a cornerstone of Wally's characterization was that he was stepping into the role of his mentor. That's part of what made Mark Waid's run compelling and attracted a lot of fans to the character. Wally tapped into the experiences of young adults filling roles once occupied by older mentors.

Kyle's characterization also hinged on being the only GL left after Hal blew up the Corps. And then he became a major player in the mythology because of that fact.

But the most important thing is that the existence of these characters adds to the mythos. It makes it more full and more fleshed out.

If DC had handled things the same way they did with Wally with the others, things might have been different (though probably not with the original replacement for Barry DC was thinking about). But the disrespectful way they handled Hal after 35 years as a superhero for the company is a different story. The blowback that came their way was well-deserved and can't be hand-waved away. John Stewart fans have to scratch their heads over why their favorite was bypassed for Kyle, too.

[John Venus]

The disservice done to Hal has been rectified for a long time now. They even pushed him as THE GL for a time. He has more appearances in adaptations than any other GL thus far.

The issue NOW is we are in the aftermath of complete mismanagement of heroes by DC. DC spent most of the 00's and '10's screwing over and sidelining legacy heroes so they could indulge in Silver Age nostalgia by putting Barry and Hal back in the spotlight again. Then they basically barred sabotage any appearances of heroes that could be a 'threat' to those favored Silver Age ones. But Wally, Kyle, John Stewart, Cass Cain and Stephanie Brown proved to be too popular to be gone for too long and they ended up coming back anyway. Only now, DC has created a bunch of new legacy heroes (Jo, Wallace West, Avery Ho, Yara, Teen Lantern) and at the same time ran all their books to the ground with the constant continuity mangling so now we are situation where everybody wants to see their faves but there aren't enough titles to feature them all.

[The Darknight Detective]

The disservice done to Hal has been rectified for a long time now. They even pushed him as THE GL for a time. He has more appearances in adaptations than any other GL thus far.

Absolutely, but that's where the divisiveness really started to coalesce. That things changed many years later doesn't erase what happened earlier. Maybe the fan squabbling would have occurred regardless, but I suspect it wouldn't have been as bad had DC shown more empathy for Hal fans than they did.