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  1. #211
    Incredible Member Captain Nostalgia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAWtoyoto 432 View Post
    Unpopular opinion: I know you all gonna to get mad when I express my opinion. but it is clear that Marvel Comics treat their legacy characters 10x better than DC Comics.
    This inculding the legacy of spider man : Peter Parker and Mile Morales each have their own solo titles. DC comics however refused to give Barry and Wally each have their own solo books. We as fans are so tired to beg them launch a solo for years.

    Ms Marvel and Kate Bishop are getting the push not only in the comics , but also in the media and video games.
    Despite Marvel has failed to make the "Champion" series successful, at least they tried again with another relauch by coming up with a better storytelling. DC on the other hand, give up to rebulid the " Titans" series with relaunched them.

    The mentor-protege relationship in Marvel Comics like ( Ms marvel/ Captain Marvel), ( Peter/Mile), ( Janet/Nadia), (Clint/Kate), (Richard/Sam) all have a stable relationship even after the conflict or problem have arise, but they eventually reconciled soon ( 5 or 6 months) . DC Comics however have the poor relationship between the mentor and protege. Barry and Wally have fallen out since " Flash Wars" and took (2 years) until it lead us into " Speed Metal" to rekind.

    If DC Comics really care the legacy characters, we would not have " Ric Grayson", " Evil Donna", " Killer Wally", " Forgotten Young Justice" or " Broken Supersons " happen.

    Marvel even quickly correct the wrong the moment thing going bad , but DC doesn't care and drag the storyline like " Ric" stuff for 2 freaking years.

    So yeah, every evidence and proof have made me clear that Marvel Comics have a good relationship with the legacy characters. END OF OPINION.
    For the most part, Marvel has always treated its characters better than DC (With the exception of the brief Wolverine/Hawkeye replacement era)

    If your not part of the Trinity it seems like your fair game to killed off or replaced or tampered with at some point...

    The current Legion of Super Heroes is a good example of that....

    I've never understood that culture at DC, it completely alienates me as a comic fan.

  2. #212
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    DC was simply not run like a business like Marvel, but more a playground where the management/editors could do what they wanted with these characters and it was generally to get rid of legacies (like Wally and Cassandra Cain) and create an idealized status quo that only existed in the minds of DC employees.
    Last edited by Bruce Wayne; 02-27-2021 at 02:04 PM.

  3. #213
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    Lots not forget how a lot of Marvel fans were up in arms a few years ago, when Marvel replaced all of their main heroes with PoC and Women.

    Thor-Jane Foster
    Captain America-Sam Wilson
    Hulk-Amadeus
    Spider-man - Dr Octopus, Miles
    Wolverine-Laura Kinney
    Captain Marvel-Carol Danvers
    Ghost Rider-Robbie Reyes
    Wasp-Nadia
    Iron Man-Doom and Riri
    Nova-Sam
    Quasar-Avril

    Of those replacements, the older characters returned and started sharing their titles with the new people, except for the four main Avengers: Hulk, Captain America, Thor and Iron Man.

    Still, Doom and Doc sock returned to villains. But they were also pissed off fans from time displaced X-Men replacing the older ones. And when Fantastic Four was canceled for a while. They were also pissed when Shuri was Black Panther and Brother Voodoo was Sorcerer Supreme.

    And fans are still pissed off at current she-hulk, with the only hope that she’ll return to normal with her tv show.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    The longest running legacy character at Marvel, albeit not considered one now, is Carol Danvers.

    While DC was busy spitting on their legacy heroes, Marvel managed to make in roads to the YA market through Young Avengers and Runaways, they are doing Moon Girl & Devil Dinosaur comic book and animated show, they've put Mile Morales in a critically acclaimed movie and video game, Ant-Man did the 'passing of the mantle' thing in his movie, they are seeding Young Avengers in their Disney+ shows and movies and they've announced that Carol will team up with Monica and Kamala meanwhile WW is busy pining over Steeeeeve, a perfectly cast Donna Troy is being wasted on a terrible show and the rest of the WW family is nowhere to be seen so far. When was the last time Connor Hawke was seen? The only show that's really focusing on legacy right now is Young Justice but the cast is so bloated now and even they've made questionable choices like killing off Wall West.

    By the time DC gets their together, they will be accused of ripping off Marvel. Sure, we can wave our copies of Wally West's 23 year long tenure as the Flash but Marvel has marketed and adapted the hell out of their legacy heroes and is ahead of DC as of now.
    Yeah, you are absolute right. But it make me wonder does Miles, Kamala and Most of the Young Avengers are treated as a cannon fodder/plot device?

    I know Cassie and Jones are the only Young Avengers to die but the others, I AM NOT SO SURE.

  5. #215
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    If you want to introduce somebody else as a certain character just have them be from another Earth. I don’t see what’s so tough about that.

  6. #216
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRay View Post
    If you want to introduce somebody else as a certain character just have them be from another Earth. I don’t see what’s so tough about that.
    Agreed and if DC would have stuck to that formula that they created the '60s, this thread would not exist. The problem is DC did deviate from that formula during the '80s and created all of the fans squabbles that we have now.
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    I'd say Marvel had introduced the Champions better than the Future State legacies.
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 11-26-2021 at 09:08 AM.

  8. #218
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    I disagree with the thread statement when it was made, but this year DC really screwed up a lot including it’s legacy characters. A lot like Marvel did these past ten years. Which can all be chalked up to laziness. They’re too lazy to write creative new stories that keep the characters intact, so they turn the character into a mantle or warp the characterization to a place where said character can no longer be recognized. My opinion is that legacy character really can only work if the original character is tethered to the distant past or lives in a different universe. Sidekicks and characters who derive from said characters are different if it’s their first identity but characters getting so-called promotions at the cost of their individuality harms those characters and the characters they replace.
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  9. #219
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Agreed and if DC would have stuck to that formula that they created the '60s, this thread would not exist. The problem is DC did deviate from that formula during the '80s and created all of the fans squabbles that we have now.
    I'm way past the point of blaming COIE for everything. At this point, it feels more like scapegoating. In retrospect, we were lucky that it only messed up Donna Troy and Hawkman, meanwhile Nu52 and every subsequent Crisis has given *everyone* a continuity that's as confusing and messed up as Donna and Hawkman.

  10. #220
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    Oh boy. This thread is a barrel of laughs, to say the least. Here's the thing: not everybody here or in management at the Big Two are in agreement about how to handle legacy heroes or even if there should be such a thing as legacy heroes. Some people here have said that legacy characters are part of what makes DC Comics what it is. Some will tell you that they prefer the Silver Age guys and ONLY the Silver Age guys.

    That being said, it may be because I've been away from message boards for a bit, but I haven't seen much hatred or backlash against the more recent legacy developments at DC, i.e. Jon Kent taking up the Superman mantle, the introduction of Yara Flor (whose comic, btw, has been excellent so far), or Jace Fox becoming a new Batman.

    And on top of that, there's really no "one size fits all" description of how either DC or Marvel have treated legacies. As much as people complain about how DC has treated characters like Wally West or John Stewart, there's been a lot of success with characters like Damian Wayne and Jon Kent. Plus, it's not like all is peaceful on the other side either. As someone else pointed out, it was barely two or three years ago when many Thor fans were completely up in arms about the very idea of Jane Foster taking up Thor's mantle (a lot of people even still complain about Aaron's run in fact). The same thing happened when Sam Wilson became Captain America. On top of that, characters like Riri Williams and Lunella Lafayette were met with a LOT of ire.

    Of course, that's NOT a reason to limit or do away with legacy characters. However, it just goes to show that opinion on this is not so simple or united as "DC has messed it up and Marvel has nailed it" and attempting to reduce it to such a dichotomy is more so indicative of bias on the part of the person who says it than it is reflective of company practices on either side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Nostalgia View Post
    For the most part, Marvel has always treated its characters better than DC (With the exception of the brief Wolverine/Hawkeye replacement era)

    If your not part of the Trinity it seems like your fair game to killed off or replaced or tampered with at some point...

    The current Legion of Super Heroes is a good example of that....

    I've never understood that culture at DC, it completely alienates me as a comic fan.
    Captain America, Thor, Captain Marvel, Iron Man, Spider-Man, Hawkeye, Ghost Rider, Black Panther, Daredevil, Hulk, Ant-Man...all examples of mantles that have been passed down to multiple different characters after the "classic" holder either died or became otherwise indisposed.

    And that's not a recent development. It's something that's been going on for decades. In fact, the versions of Ant-Man (Scott Lang) and Captain Marvel (Carol Danvers) that most mainstream audiences are familiar with due to the MCU are actually legacy characters who took over the mantles from previous holders in the actual comics.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Agreed and if DC would have stuck to that formula that they created the '60s, this thread would not exist. The problem is DC did deviate from that formula during the '80s and created all of the fans squabbles that we have now.
    Except, in a lot of cases, many of the legacy characters became fan favorites because they held onto the mantle for as long as they did. For example, Wally West really became the beloved character he is today during Mark Waid's run on the main Flash comic. Also, Kyle Rayner is one of the coolest characters between the Big Two.

    These characters wouldn't exist in the state we know them if not for DC's implementation of the concept of legacy.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 11-27-2021 at 12:05 AM.

  11. #221
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    I'm way past the point of blaming COIE for everything. At this point, it feels more like scapegoating. In retrospect, we were lucky that it only messed up Donna Troy and Hawkman, meanwhile Nu52 and every subsequent Crisis has given *everyone* a continuity that's as confusing and messed up as Donna and Hawkman.
    How is it scapegoating when it did what it did? Fan squabbling over characters wasn't around pre-COIE, but surely was in force after it. This is just undeniable.
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  12. #222
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post
    Except, in a lot of cases, many of the legacy characters became fan favorites because they held onto the mantle for as long as they did. For example, Wally West really became the beloved character he is today during Mark Waid's run on the main Flash comic. Also, Kyle Rayner is one of the coolest characters between the Big Two.

    These characters wouldn't exist in the state we know them if not for DC's implementation of the concept of legacy.
    Except they could have all been created without becoming legacies, but instead brand-new superheroes (unless you're saying their well-known codenames are much more important than their characterizations, of course).
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  13. #223
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    I'm bewitched, bothered and bewildered whenever these old topics are brought back up to the front page and I can see by the little green icon that I must have posted to the thread. I had to scroll through all the comments on this topic until I finally found the one post I made.

    Lately, I've been trying to find in this forum the topic about "D.C. House Ads." I posted a lot of images on that thread and I'd like to find it just for that. So I've been going through all back pages on this forum in hopes that the next leap will be the leap home. Still haven't found it. But I've found a lot of charming old topics in my search.

    I think the legacy concept has replaced the concept of a supporting cast. I look at Wally West as one in a cast of characters. As one intelligent poster mentioned on another thread, it used to be that super-heroes had a cast of characters--some of those characters could have powers, but a lot didn't--then things shifted to where the comics were just about super-heroes and that was the only cast of characters you had. So the only way for a character to get an audition is if they try out for a legacy role.

    I think the best example of this (the most satisfying) is the STARGIRL T.V. series, where you could throw a rock in Blue Valley and hit someone who is a super-person. You might at first think a character is just a regular joe or jill, but you can almost bet they are going to be linked to the other supers and maybe have their own super-power or gimmick. The difference is the T.V. show doesn't have a prior T.V. show it's referencing. It might be an adaptation of the comics, which all reference prior comics, but in the medium of T.V. the only actor that previously had an iteration on another show is John Wesley Shipp's Flash.

    For the average viewer, the legacy on STARGIRL is just a story device and it's not referencing a pre-existing series. In comics, the legacy is more than a story--on the meta level it's something that comic book collectors can trace through other iterations and continuities.

    Maybe that's what bugs me about the legacy concept--it's not organic to the story the way a Dickens story creates a whole society of characters, with a depth of field. The concept is a fan wonk, meant to satisfy collectors. It's more about costumes and codenames than story.
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  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by LAWtoyoto 432 View Post
    Yeah, you are absolute right. But it make me wonder does Miles, Kamala and Most of the Young Avengers are treated as a cannon fodder/plot device?

    I know Cassie and Jones are the only Young Avengers to die but the others, I AM NOT SO SURE.
    The closest we had to the Champions getting turned into fodder/plot device was Kamala getting injured so the government could pass laws against teenage vigilantes. She got better and the Champions put an end to the conspiracy.

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    How is it scapegoating when it did what it did? Fan squabbling over characters wasn't around pre-COIE, but surely was in force after it. This is just undeniable.
    I think it’s scapegoating when people overlook some of the much less divisive and much more successful integration of stuff into the Post-Crisis Universe; like the New 52, it was a reboot in some areas and not in others, but it wasn’t nearly as disruptive as the New 52 was, and was generally just so much more graceful that some of the things DC tried to “fix” with the New 52 have arguably been proven poor misinterpretations of stuff.

    It simply *was* a better idea to integrate the Earth 2/Golden Age characters into the Earth 1/Silver Age’s background, and Wally *was* a major breath of fresh air that reingvirgated a franchise that was floundering in The Flash, while poeple sometimes overlook just how much of the COIE changes weren’t reboots; Flash, Green Lantern, and Batman were all just continued forwards with an excuse to do “retellings” if they wanted to, while the biggest changes that were actual reboots happened to Superman (and was still successful enough it’s now the equal to the Pre-Crisis telling) and Wonder Woman (where it’s clearly not a matter of replacing the old continuity that causes the problems, but a simple lack o focus from *anyone* with the character.)

    One of the trickier elements about the legacy characters, and typified by their “patron saint” Wally West, is that because COIE allowed much of the Pre-Crisis stuff to exist as backstory, they elevated the mantle beyond a mere one-dimensional IP; Flash is so much bigger than Barry Allen because it became a Legacy mantle, much like Robin did.
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