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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEchidna View Post
    I think that's my biggest sticking point. For all the complaints about them getting involved in big Spider-Man stories what have they actually done? Spider-Geddon was arguably the only one where any of them got any legitimate spotlight in the event and it was still ultimately SpOck and Miles there.

    And the original Spider-Verse they mostly got shunted off to tie-ins. In Clone Conspiracy Silk just had her own tie-in and Gwen and Kaine were just there in minor roles. In Going Down Swing Miles and Cindy both got taken out off-panel. And now here they all got possessed.

    So I dunno, for all the complaints about them making Pete less special it really feels like all their involvement really ever amounts to is to highlight how Pete is the most special of all lol
    That's honestly my biggest complaint whenever people talk about them being useless. It comes off as Marvel sabotaging them.

  2. #32
    Wily Veteran cc008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTHM View Post
    This is an interesting take, but would you be willing to expand a bit on it?
    Sure! From what I've read, street level events and stories are centered around Gotham, those heroes and villains. Street level events in Marvels New York dont necessarily mean Spider-Man stories and thats my biggest point.

    You have 2 of those Batfamily that have really separated themselves and have been successful on their own and feel DIFFERENT from Batman. Where some of these types of roles in Marvel, are already filled by characters outside of the Spider-Man ethos

    Nightwing has broken away (people will argue he'll always be bogged down by Batman, but for this post's sake).. moved to Bludhaven, led the Titans, traveled the world as an undercover Agent of Spyral.

    Red Hood has chosen to break himself away from Batman and fills a niche that no Spider character really does. Unless you want to consider Agent Venom, or even the Lethal protector. Who I believe, has a place among Spider books.

    The Robins specifically may have all started out as similar, but I think they have all grown into very distinct characters.

    Its hard for me to pick out Spidy characters where you can say they've successfully stepped away from Peter AND have a distinct, unique feel or story.

    Again, this is all just from my reading lense. I'm sure there are people that think all the Batfamily characters are generally the same. And I'm sure somebody could convince me that more Spider-Man characters are uniquely different than Peter
    Last edited by cc008; 10-17-2020 at 03:30 PM.

  3. #33
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEchidna View Post
    I think that's my biggest sticking point. For all the complaints about them getting involved in big Spider-Man stories what have they actually done? Spider-Geddon was arguably the only one where any of them got any legitimate spotlight in the event and it was still ultimately SpOck and Miles there.

    And the original Spider-Verse they mostly got shunted off to tie-ins. In Clone Conspiracy Silk just had her own tie-in and Gwen and Kaine were just there in minor roles. In Going Down Swing Miles and Cindy both got taken out off-panel. And now here they all got possessed.

    So I dunno, for all the complaints about them making Pete less special it really feels like all their involvement really ever amounts to is to highlight how Pete is the most special of all lol
    I think most of people's issues come from Slott's run where there were so many guest heroes who so often did the cool stuff or took down the actual bad guy while Peter was just kind of there. Some of this includes the other Spider-Heroes, whether it was Silk, Miles, or Flash.

    Spider-Verse could be forgivable since it was never designed to have Peter as the main character, so that's why he feels like he's playing second fiddle for so much of the story and gets shown up in the major emotional moment by SpOck of all people. Spidgergeddon a little less so but by then I think they figured Spider-Verse just wasn't really a Peter thing.

    And (I know I bring this show up a lot) but the Marvel's Spider-Man cartoon that takes so much influence from Slott's run can't seem to give Peter a significant win against a bad guy without a lot of help and he's rendered ineffectual in the other Spiders debuts so they can show themselves off or contribute.

  4. #34
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darthfury78 View Post
    Regarding Silk, she's the repackaged version of Ultimate Universe Spider-Woman for Marvel-616, as far as her powers goes.
    1610 Jessica was a repackaged Scarlet Spider, with X-23's then-current opposite sex clone origin mixed in (Laura's since been retconned to basically an IVF baby), so calling someone else a repackaged version of her is a bit rich. If Silk copied from anyone, it's Anya Corazon, as her powers since Spider-Island (which is before Silk's origin event, Original Sin), are pretty much identical, Peter's powers plus organic webbing.
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  5. #35
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEchidna View Post
    I think that's my biggest sticking point. For all the complaints about them getting involved in big Spider-Man stories what have they actually done? Spider-Geddon was arguably the only one where any of them got any legitimate spotlight in the event and it was still ultimately SpOck and Miles there.
    Yeah, not even the so advertised PS4 Spidey amounted to anything besides a Spider-Cop joke, and learning about Spider-Otto being evil, which is more than the rest got in the main issues, but yeah...

    And the original Spider-Verse they mostly got shunted off to tie-ins. In Clone Conspiracy Silk just had her own tie-in and Gwen and Kaine were just there in minor roles. In Going Down Swing Miles and Cindy both got taken out off-panel. And now here they all got possessed.
    Well, characters doing shit in tie-ins is nothing new too, in theory, back in Spider-Island, Anya was one of the most important characters there since she teamed up with Kingpin and Sisterhood of Wasp to stop an invasion of other spider-monsters while Peter and Kaine were stopping the Queen, but it's just a tie-in and those are mostly ignorable for the main plot and are only there for the fanservice, and it's not even talked about afterwards as something helpful, so yeah...

    So I dunno, for all the complaints about them making Pete less special it really feels like all their involvement really ever amounts to is to highlight how Pete is the most special of all lol
    All that other Spider-People do is make his powers look less special to be fair, all the other Spider-People have the basic strength, speed, agility and wall crawling, and while a power looking less special can be a problem, Spidey still stands out since unlike most, he has Spider-sense and web shooters, whenever they remember his intelligence also stands out too, as he can use science to come up with a way to defeat villains, and he even did it recently by having the idea of using Norman's EMP machine to basically melt the ground and slow down Sin Eater.

    So yeah, Spidey has too much going on for him, and while the others can make him look less special, so far, like you said, they really like to highlight how super special he is... While it's usually because of his desire to do the right thing, the other stuff I mentioned definitely helps too.

    Quote Originally Posted by cc008 View Post
    Sure! From what I've read, street level events and stories are centered around Gotham, those heroes and villains. Street level events in Marvels New York dont necessarily mean Spider-Man stories and thats my biggest point.

    You have 2 of those Batfamily that have really separated themselves and have been successful on their own and feel DIFFERENT from Batman. Where some of these types of roles in Marvel, are already filled by characters outside of the Spider-Man ethos

    Nightwing has broken away (people will argue he'll always be bogged down by Batman, but for this post's sake).. moved to Bludhaven, led the Titans, traveled the world as an undercover Agent of Spyral.

    Red Hood has chosen to break himself away from Batman and fills a niche that no Spider character really does. Unless you want to consider Agent Venom, or even the Lethal protector. Who I believe, has a place among Spider books.

    The Robins specifically may have all started out as similar, but I think they have all grown into very distinct characters.

    Its hard for me to pick out Spidy characters where you can say they've successfully stepped away from Peter AND have a distinct, unique feel or story.

    Again, this is all just from my reading lense. I'm sure there are people that think all the Batfamily characters are generally the same. And I'm sure somebody could convince me that more Spider-Man characters are uniquely different than Peter
    Good point, never considered that.

    I think the only characters who moved away from Spidey are villains, like Kingpin, Norman briefly did too with the whole taking over SHIELD thing.

    Other Spider-People do have interesting ideas, for me Anya and Julia could stand out a lot, but Anya lost about everything that could make her stand out and now she's just a lesser Spider-Man in personality and power set, and Julia more often than not only plays a supporting role where she sucks at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Spider-Verse could be forgivable since it was never designed to have Peter as the main character, so that's why he feels like he's playing second fiddle for so much of the story and gets shown up in the major emotional moment by SpOck of all people.
    Honestly, I don't like the excuse of "Spider-Verse didn't have Peter planned as the protagonist, that's why he doesn't do much", stories can be changed and adapted from the original plan to when it's actually published, and Slott was just lazy to not change it up more so Peter is more relevant.

    Spidgergeddon a little less so but by then I think they figured Spider-Verse just wasn't really a Peter thing.
    At least Spider-Geddon didn't try to make Peter look major, and honestly they shouldn't even have bothered to include him in the final issue, his tie-in did more than enough to "include" him.

    And (I know I bring this show up a lot) but the Marvel's Spider-Man cartoon that takes so much influence from Slott's run can't seem to give Peter a significant win against a bad guy without a lot of help and he's rendered ineffectual in the other Spiders debuts so they can show themselves off or contribute.
    Problem of adapting something too faithfuly, 'cause honestly, comic books give a lot of leeway on adaptations, no better example than Spectacular, where it clearly takes more from Ditko's run, but does shit like making the supporting cast more likeable, making Norman a bigger antagonist without Green Goblin and other shit.

    I honestly think it's more important to adapt the spirit of something than just copying a comic story, but still do your own interpretation to actually be able to stand out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    1610 Jessica was a repackaged Scarlet Spider, with X-23's then-current opposite sex clone origin mixed in (Laura's since been retconned to basically an IVF baby), so calling someone else a repackaged version of her is a bit rich. If Silk copied from anyone, it's Anya Corazon, as her powers since Spider-Island (which is before Silk's origin event, Original Sin), are pretty much identical, Peter's powers plus organic webbing.
    And Kaine is a repackaged Post-Queen and Post-The Other version of Peter's power set (Even the case in-universe, since Kaine just got them when The Other went after him for some reason), so yeah, a Spider character stealing the powers from another Spider is nothing new lol.

  6. #36
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I honestly think it's more important to adapt the spirit of something than just copying a comic story, but still do your own interpretation to actually be able to stand out.
    Well, it was definitely true to the spirit of the Slott run in that Peter gets saved almost as often as he actually saves anyone.

  7. #37
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    As individual characthers and as the ocassional team up (but not all of then at once) they are fine. I do laugth of the Spider-family name thougth, because they really aren't anything close to a family.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    As individual characters and as the occasional team up (but not all of then at once) they are fine. I do laugh of the Spider-family name though, because they really aren't anything close to a family.
    The Spider-Family can be close to a real family if done under a good writer. I feel that if the following characters are part of the Spider-Family, the series would do very well in terms of sales and product marketing:

    1. Peter Parker
    2. Jessica Drew
    3. Julia Carpenter
    4. Kaine Parker
    5. Black Widow


    Why this cast? They all reside in NYC. Second, they are already friends. Lastly, they do not share the same origins with one another. I excluded Miles Morales and Spider-Gwen because they work best in their own universe. Thus, if the Spider-Family have the following members, sales would be phenomenal...

    This excludes universe hoping characters, or those who share the same origin and powers of the radioactive spider that bite Peter Parker...
    Last edited by Darthfury78; 10-17-2020 at 07:58 PM.

  9. #39
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Well, it was definitely true to the spirit of the Slott run in that Peter gets saved almost as often as he actually saves anyone.
    Which is why I mentioned Ditko and Spectacular, while the cartoon takes cues from the Ditko era, it also uses stuff from other eras.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    As individual characthers and as the ocassional team up (but not all of then at once) they are fine. I do laugth of the Spider-family name thougth, because they really aren't anything close to a family.
    It's only called that 'cause of Batfamily and Flash Family anyways, borrowed nickname that easily explains the idea, 'cause yeah, the characters who are the closest in this are Peter and Miles, and even then they don't interact with each other a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darthfury78 View Post
    The Spider-Family can be close to a real family if done under a good writer. I feel that if the following characters are part of the Spider-Family, the series would do very well in terms of sales and product marketing:

    1. Peter Parker
    2. Jessica Drew
    3. Julia Carpenter
    4. Kaine Parker
    5. Black Widow


    Why this cast? They all reside in NYC. Second, they are already friends. Lastly, they do not share the same origins with one another. I excluded Miles Morales and Spider-Gwen because they work best in their own universe. Thus, if the Spider-Family have the following members, sales would be phenomenal...
    Black Widow in this is weird, since the spider is just in the name, which even that she doesn't represent much and is more of an aloof spy.

    or those who share the same origin and powers of the radioactive spider that bite Peter Parker...
    Just say "Cindy" man, 'cause that one only excludes her lol.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darthfury78 View Post
    The Spider-Family can be close to a real family if done under a good writer. I feel that if the following characters are part of the Spider-Family, the series would do very well in terms of sales and product marketing
    Person asks Random Kid: "You know who Miles Morales is? What Spider-Gwen looks like?"
    Random Kid: Gives instant correct response.
    Person asks Random Kid: "You know who Jessica Drew, Julia Carpenter, Kaine are?"
    Random Kid: Instant No.
    Random Kid: What's Black Widow doing with Spider-Man. She's an Avenger.

    So I don't think your claim that this version of the Spider-Family is somehow better in terms of marketing and sales than the one with Miles and Spider-Gwen has any empirical grounding whatsoever.

    Why this cast? They all reside in NYC.
    As does Miles Morales

  11. #41
    Spectacular Member JTHM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cc008 View Post
    Its hard for me to pick out Spidy characters where you can say they've successfully stepped away from Peter AND have a distinct, unique feel or story.

    Again, this is all just from my reading lense. I'm sure there are people that think all the Batfamily characters are generally the same. And I'm sure somebody could convince me that more Spider-Man characters are uniquely different than Peter
    Yeah. I can understand what you mean, I do agree that a lot of these characters seem to have a hard time finding their niche whether in and out of Peter's orbit, and that's certainly a problem. I would agree that of the so called Spider-Family: Miles is the one that can obviously stand up for himself the most, followed by Jessica Drew, Gwen and Silk in that order. Anya and Julia just...I don't know, I can't see them standing up too much. But that's because their specialty (The mystic side of the Spider-Man mythos) is rarely explored in depth. Venom would also obviously take the lead in this list if you consider him a Spider-Man character, though to be completely honest, at this point in time I don't think Venom is really Spider-Adjacent anymore. Sure, he is deeply intertwined with the Spider-Man mythos in comics, but it is clear he can stand on his own in any medium he is in.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think the question becomes how expected a presence they should be in Spider-Man stories.

    Like, should they be used? Should they be a part of Peter's life? Does a Spider-Man cartoon need to have three other Spider-Heroes alongside Spider-Man?
    This might be a good thread to bring this up, but I never bought most of the Spider-Family. Only ones I see co-existing with Peter and serving some sort of purpose are Miguel, Miles, and Gwen. (Honestly, Miguel isn't even part of them - he is their Green Ranger to their Power Rangers). The others can maybe stick around as supporting characters but I don't see them as having enough depth to be protagonists.

    As for to what extent they should be involved, I don't think they have to be necessarily part of Peter's life. The occasional teamup is good enough.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    This might be a good thread to bring this up, but I never bought most of the Spider-Family. Only ones I see co-existing with Peter and serving some sort of purpose are Miguel, Miles, and Gwen. (Honestly, Miguel isn't even part of them - he is their Green Ranger to their Power Rangers). The others can maybe stick around as supporting characters but I don't see them as having enough depth to be protagonists.

    As for to what extent they should be involved, I don't think they have to be necessarily part of Peter's life. The occasional teamup is good enough.
    So what? Are the other Power Rangers just filler for Red one? They cycle focus depending on the story.

    Even if Peter is the main "main" character, that doesn't/shouldn't mean that the other characters are unimportant.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTHM View Post
    Yeah. I can understand what you mean, I do agree that a lot of these characters seem to have a hard time finding their niche whether in and out of Peter's orbit, and that's certainly a problem. I would agree that of the so called Spider-Family: Miles is the one that can obviously stand up for himself the most, followed by Jessica Drew, Gwen and Silk in that order. Anya and Julia just...I don't know, I can't see them standing up too much. But that's because their specialty (The mystic side of the Spider-Man mythos) is rarely explored in depth. Venom would also obviously take the lead in this list if you consider him a Spider-Man character, though to be completely honest, at this point in time I don't think Venom is really Spider-Adjacent anymore. Sure, he is deeply intertwined with the Spider-Man mythos in comics, but it is clear he can stand on his own in any medium he is in.
    I don't really see how Jessica is above Gwen when it comes to standing up for herself, since she usually doesn't, she's just a Spider-Person who's around and sometimes is an Avenger, whatever stuff from her past is ignored because writers don't like bothering.

    Anya and Julia, ironically I see them having huge potential, but since Anya lost everything that could make her stand out and only really has a very loose connection with the magic side of Spider-Man's mythos, and Julia is mostly useless, even though ironically she should at least be amazing in at least combat (And briefly she was under Slott, since she managed to keep up with Spidey after he learned Spider-Fu, and it's specifically pointed out she uses her precognition powers alongside her own Spider-powers) yeah, they're screwed lol.

    Just realized how Anya and Cindy had their situation reversed, 'cause Anya started with good enough potential, but lost everything, Cindy started as some piece of shit character who didn't have much of a point, then her situation with being isolated actually affecting her character gave her something to do, ironic lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    This might be a good thread to bring this up, but I never bought most of the Spider-Family. Only ones I see co-existing with Peter and serving some sort of purpose are Miguel, Miles, and Gwen. (Honestly, Miguel isn't even part of them - he is their Green Ranger to their Power Rangers). The others can maybe stick around as supporting characters but I don't see them as having enough depth to be protagonists.

    As for to what extent they should be involved, I don't think they have to be necessarily part of Peter's life. The occasional teamup is good enough.
    What purpose does Gwen have that isn't "Oh you remind me of that chick who was thrown from a bridge once"?

    Miguel is a reversed case, since it's Peter who gives him some purpose, but Peter himself doesn't get much from Miguel besides "Oh there's a Spider-Man in the future, that's cool".

  15. #45
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Which is why I mentioned Ditko and Spectacular, while the cartoon takes cues from the Ditko era, it also uses stuff from other eras.
    At least Peter feels in-character and is generally fairly mature throughout the show, so that's one spot where they diverged from Slott.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    This might be a good thread to bring this up, but I never bought most of the Spider-Family. Only ones I see co-existing with Peter and serving some sort of purpose are Miguel, Miles, and Gwen. (Honestly, Miguel isn't even part of them - he is their Green Ranger to their Power Rangers). The others can maybe stick around as supporting characters but I don't see them as having enough depth to be protagonists.

    As for to what extent they should be involved, I don't think they have to be necessarily part of Peter's life. The occasional teamup is good enough.
    That's the thing though. It doesn't seem like Marvel has quite made up their mind whether they're fine for just team-ups or need to be a significant part of Peter's life, to where they're absent for most of his comic until they suddenly appear for one storyline or take up screentime and focus on what is ostensibly supposed to be Peter's solo show.

    Like, say we ever get another Spider-Man cartoon that stars Peter Parker, would it be expected to just focus on Peter Parker or would they probably have to introduce Miles, Gwen, Cindy, Anya, et al so there's a bunch of other Spider-Heroes?
    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    So what? Are the other Power Rangers just filler for Red one? They cycle focus depending on the story.

    Even if Peter is the main "main" character, that doesn't/shouldn't mean that the other characters are unimportant.
    Well, depending on what season we're talking about...

    I don't think characters should be treated as unimportant. Peter's supporting cast shouldn't be, but I don't think that should account for the other Spiders (unless we're using 616 Gwen).

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