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  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think Marvel is saying teamwork is for wealkings. Spider-Man just isn't a team character.

    Was he ever really depicted that way?

    Although traveling to the past ended up netting him his seemingly final love interest and even a kid.
    He has a couple of decents moments, like when he was the one that helped the younger heroes to retire from the battlefield during Secret Empire and he didn't buy what Ben was selling him in spite of Kaine and Gwen's expiriences in AU...so that's a plus i guest (still weird that he has so little reaction to Reilly).
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  2. #62
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think Marvel is saying teamwork is for wealkings. Spider-Man just isn't a team character.
    Unless we're talking about about 70's/80's, where Marvel Team-Up might as well have been called "Spider-Man team-up" .

    Was he ever really depicted that way?
    Yes, but it wasn't used much and usually didn't last, we had moments like of Ends of the Earth where he's pretty much ordering the Avengers around and using them to counter pick the Sinister Six despite him already using an armor specifically made to counter the Sinister Six, before Otto manages to outsmart him, and even after that he still had his moments like when he bluffed well and made Sandman think Spidey was gonna kill him if he didn't help, and convincing Mysterio to help him out, think maybe he was being smart when the Avengers were freed from Otto's mind control too?

    Ends of the Earth is the one that shows it the most, but there were a few moments here and there, like how easily he solved Superior in one issue, PI era had it at the beginning (And fact SHIELD asked for his help and not just Peter's money shows that) and Johnny even comments on it, and in the Secret Empire Tie-in, he ordered the Avengers around which is what helped them to escape.

    Basically it was rarely ever there, but it happened, once every blue moon.

    Although traveling to the past ended up netting him his seemingly final love interest and even a kid.
    Huh, wasn't aware of those lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    He has a couple of decents moments, like when he was the one that helped the younger heroes to retire from the battlefield during Secret Empire and he didn't buy what Ben was selling him in spite of Kaine and Gwen's expiriences in AU...so that's a plus i guest (still weird that he has so little reaction to Reilly).
    While Slott's Peter can often not react to stuff, didn't he say something like "You're not my brother anymore" to Ben?

    Also, it's very possible that the Peter Kaine and Gwen saw in the other universes was actually Ben after killing and replacing him, which is something that Ben possibly was planning to do in 616, not being blonde is a huge hint towards that.

    Edit: Also, the AU Peters were working with Jackal, while it's possible they're working together because of desperation, it can be used as a hint that the Peters there were actually Bens.
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 10-18-2020 at 09:40 AM.

  3. #63
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Unless we're talking about about 70's/80's, where Marvel Team-Up might as well have been called "Spider-Man team-up" .



    Yes, but it wasn't used much and usually didn't last, we had moments like of Ends of the Earth where he's pretty much ordering the Avengers around and using them to counter pick the Sinister Six despite him already using an armor specifically made to counter the Sinister Six, before Otto manages to outsmart him, and even after that he still had his moments like when he bluffed well and made Sandman think Spidey was gonna kill him if he didn't help, and convincing Mysterio to help him out, think maybe he was being smart when the Avengers were freed from Otto's mind control too?

    Ends of the Earth is the one that shows it the most, but there were a few moments here and there, like how easily he solved Superior in one issue, PI era had it at the beginning (And fact SHIELD asked for his help and not just Peter's money shows that) and Johnny even comments on it, and in the Secret Empire Tie-in, he ordered the Avengers around which is what helped them to escape.

    Basically it was rarely ever there, but it happened, once every blue moon.



    Huh, wasn't aware of those lol.



    While Slott's Peter can often not react to stuff, didn't he say something like "You're not my brother anymore" to Ben?

    Also, it's very possible that the Peter Kaine and Gwen saw in the other universes was actually Ben after killing and replacing him, which is something that Ben possibly was planning to do in 616, not being blonde is a huge hint towards that.

    Edit: Also, the AU Peters were working with Jackal, while it's possible they're working together because of desperation, it can be used as a hint that the Peters there were actually Bens.
    That would explain a lot actually, so yeah those AU Peter were probably Ben.
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  4. #64

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    the collective should be called the Spider-Friends officially, by now.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    That's the thing though. It doesn't seem like Marvel has quite made up their mind whether they're fine for just team-ups or need to be a significant part of Peter's life, to where they're absent for most of his comic until they suddenly appear for one storyline or take up screentime and focus on what is ostensibly supposed to be Peter's solo show.

    Like, say we ever get another Spider-Man cartoon that stars Peter Parker, would it be expected to just focus on Peter Parker or would they probably have to introduce Miles, Gwen, Cindy, Anya, et al so there's a bunch of other Spider-Heroes?
    The current cartoon is horrible, but that has more to do with the people in charge at Marvel Animation than with Marvel as a whole. Quesada and Loeb are anomalies in how much they don't get Spider-Man even by Marvel's current standards. I wouldn't use them as proof of anything. If Quesada and Loeb had as much influence over the comics and other mediums as they do over the cartoon, all of Marvel would have looked radically different by now.

    Outside of that one example, the Spider-Family hasn't been that involved with Peter. They only had one crossover in the movies. Their crossovers in the comics are rare and no less frequent than between other heroes. In the video games, only two Spider-Men exist and each so far has their own separate game.

    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    So what? Are the other Power Rangers just filler for Red one? They cycle focus depending on the story.

    Even if Peter is the main "main" character, that doesn't/shouldn't mean that the other characters are unimportant.
    So far the three I named were the only ones with enough of a distinct personality from Peter. Miguel is his literal opposite (snarky as Miguel and quiet as Spider-Man), Miles and Gwen are from different social groups but have the outcast thing in common with Peter. The other Spider-Heroes have mostly been just retreads of Peter or other characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    What purpose does Gwen have that isn't "Oh you remind me of that chick who was thrown from a bridge once"?

    Miguel is a reversed case, since it's Peter who gives him some purpose, but Peter himself doesn't get much from Miguel besides "Oh there's a Spider-Man in the future, that's cool".
    The animated movie made a strong Breakfast Club-esque argument as to why Miles and Gwen were just as valid versions of Spider-Man as Peter is. They each have different talents and come from different social groups (Peter is a nerd, Miles is an artist, Gwen is a punk-rock basketcase), but they're similar in the sense that they are all outcasts, share non-conformist traits, and hold similar views towards those who abuse power. Those are the parts that make them all Spider-(Wo)Man.

    Miguel is unique because he is the polar opposite of Peter. He is snarky as a civilian and relatively quieter as Spider-Man.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 10-18-2020 at 03:56 PM.

  6. #66
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    That’s because don’t consider two characters to be distinct/different unless they’re on completely opposite sides of the spectrum. Now, that is irksome.

    The other Spiders don’t have to be different to the point of arguing over evert little thing. They’re all already different enough that they can stand on their own.

    It’s just that Marvel is nostalgic for and Peter only.

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    The animated movie made a strong Breakfast Club-esque argument as to why Miles and Gwen were just as valid versions of Spider-Man as Peter is. They each have different talents and come from different social groups (Peter is a nerd, Miles is an artist, Gwen is a punk-rock basketcase), but they're similar in the sense that they are all outcasts, share non-conformist traits, and hold similar views towards those who abuse power. Those are the parts that make them all Spider-(Wo)Man.

    Miguel is unique because he is the polar opposite of Peter. He is snarky as a civilian and relatively quieter as Spider-Man.
    Like, I'm not talking about whether or not those Spider-People are different from Peter, you talked about those 3 serving some purpose for Peter, and I don't see anything going on for Gwen outside of her remembering him of his own Gwen.

    Not saying a Spider-Person needs to offer a purpose to him for them to have a point in existing, again, just not seeing Gwen doing anything for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    That’s because don’t consider two characters to be distinct/different unless they’re on completely opposite sides of the spectrum. Now, that is irksome.

    The other Spiders don’t have to be different to the point of arguing over evert little thing. They’re all already different enough that they can stand on their own.

    It’s just that Marvel is nostalgic for and Peter only.
    Yeah, characters don't have to be completely different, but they need to have something to stand out, and Spider-Team-Ups tend to not work well because we just have a group of Spider-People doing interchangeable shit, and Spencer's Order of the Web is just another in this list.

  8. #68
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    The current cartoon is horrible, but that has more to do with the people in charge at Marvel Animation than with Marvel as a whole. Quesada and Loeb are anomalies in how much they don't get Spider-Man even by Marvel's current standards. I wouldn't use them as proof of anything. If Quesada and Loeb had as much influence over the comics and other mediums as they do over the cartoon, all of Marvel would have looked radically different by now.

    Outside of that one example, the Spider-Family hasn't been that involved with Peter. They only had one crossover in the movies. Their crossovers in the comics are rare and no less frequent than between other heroes. In the video games, only two Spider-Men exist and each so far has their own separate game.
    "Horrible" is a strong word that I only reserve for, at worst, the first season of Ultimate. For all its flaws I find the current cartoon too earnest to refer to it that way.

    I think Loeb definitely had a hand in the reduction of story (and animation) quality but I can't help but think any executive would probably expect to throw in a bunch of other, similarly-themed, costumed heroes to sell toys, merchandise, and appeal to audiences whether they actually fit in well or not. And Marvel Action Spider-Man is trying to make a trio of Peter, Gwen, and Miles a thing, as is the upcoming pre-school cartoon and potentially the games if Gwen shows up.

    I'm kind of curious how Weisman would've handled it in Spec if he had to. Probably make them more guest heroes instead of trying to make them into some kind of team.

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    The current cartoon is horrible, but that has more to do with the people in charge at Marvel Animation than with Marvel as a whole. Quesada and Loeb are anomalies in how much they don't get Spider-Man even by Marvel's current standards. I wouldn't use them as proof of anything. If Quesada and Loeb had as much influence over the comics and other mediums as they do over the cartoon, all of Marvel would have looked radically different by now.
    Forgot to reply to this, but I get the feeling there would be more Ultimatums around if they had more control .

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'm kind of curious how Weisman would've handled it in Spec if he had to. Probably make them more guest heroes instead of trying to make them into some kind of team.
    I remember hearing that if Spectacular kept going, then other heroes would eventually make cameos, which could lead to other cartoons from that universe being made, basically Spidey starting an universe like it happened with Ultimate, never confirmed if that's true though.

  10. #70
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I remember hearing that if Spectacular kept going, then other heroes would eventually make cameos, which could lead to other cartoons from that universe being made, basically Spidey starting an universe like it happened with Ultimate, never confirmed if that's true though.
    I know Weisman had his own timeline in-line for other heroes (Cap was still frozen in ice, Professor Xavier had just founded the school with Cyclops).

    Of course Spec was coming out during a time where Spider-Man had been a solo hero for 98% of his publication history and long before we started getting ongoings of other spider-themed characters that weren't Venom or had Symbiote's.

  11. #71
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I know Weisman had his own timeline in-line for other heroes (Cap was still frozen in ice, Professor Xavier had just founded the school with Cyclops).

    Of course Spec was coming out during a time where Spider-Man had been a solo hero for 98% of his publication history and long before we started getting ongoings of other spider-themed characters that weren't Venom or had Symbiote's.
    I think that as far as Weisman was concerned, the Fantastic Four were already a thing by the time that Spec started, but they were more explorers that crime figthers, i think that he also said that Matt was in the way of becoming DD, that the Hulk was some sort of myth around the Nevada dessert and Namor was still a hobo with no memory.
    "Wow. You made Spider-Man sad, congratulations. I stabbed The Hulk last week"
    Wolverine, Venom Annual # 1 (2018)
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  12. #72
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I know Weisman had his own timeline in-line for other heroes (Cap was still frozen in ice, Professor Xavier had just founded the school with Cyclops).
    Wait, when did Xavier "just founded" the school? Around the time the first episode? By season 2? By the end of season 2?

    Of course Spec was coming out during a time where Spider-Man had been a solo hero for 98% of his publication history and long before we started getting ongoings of other spider-themed characters that weren't Venom or had Symbiote's.
    Yeah, it was before Marvel was trying to push too much the connections between franchises, those were better times lol.

    Honestly, if Spectacular had its own big world, I just hope it was like DCAU, where we have team cartoons, but the characters with their own cartoons are mostly isolated, so keeping up with them wasn't difficult since nothing was mandatory to watch outside of just needing to have a vague knowledge about them existing.

    Although, while DCAU mostly kept stuff isolated enough, it did have continuity with the Superman cartoon, a lot of it, Darkseid isn't hard to guess "Oh Supes had some history with him" and their story with each other is alluded to, but you can get the gist of what's going on, but then we have Brainiac being inside of Luthor, and if you didn't watch the episode where that happened, it feels like a very sudden asspull lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    I think that as far as Weisman was concerned, the Fantastic Four were already a thing by the time that Spec started, but they were more explorers that crime figthers, i think that he also said that Matt was in the way of becoming DD, that the Hulk was some sort of myth around the Nevada dessert and Namor was still a hobo with no memory.
    I dunno if F4 being around works without a small retcon, characters react to Spidey like him having powers is new, unless they got their powers but didn't reveal themselves to the public yet because of explorations?

  13. #73
    Spectacular Member JTHM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I remember hearing that if Spectacular kept going, then other heroes would eventually make cameos, which could lead to other cartoons from that universe being made, basically Spidey starting an universe like it happened with Ultimate, never confirmed if that's true though.
    Adding to this, I also remember seeing news going in the Venom circles that there plans to make a Venom spin-off of Spectacular Spider-Man where Eddie goes Lethal Protector. Which certainly ruined my day to know it never happened

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Old Man Logan wasn't featured in that movie...Hugh Jackman's Wolverine was. Totally different characters.

    LOGAN the movie borrowed only a few elements from the comic, drawing everything else from X23 (who is closer to Miles Morales all things considered as a legacy hero with a minority background).
    That's just your opinion. Do you know who does not share it? Marvel Comic itself They list the "Old Man Logan" comic as an essential reading at the entry about the film.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JTHM View Post
    Adding to this, I also remember seeing news going in the Venom circles that there plans to make a Venom spin-off of Spectacular Spider-Man where Eddie goes Lethal Protector. Which certainly ruined my day to know it never happened
    I wonder how in the fuck hell that would work, Eddie is specifically a bigger douchebag in Spectacular before he got Venom, even more so after, and the symbiote also specifically feeds on negative emotions, to the point Spidey managed to reject him easily once the symbiote abandoned Eddie because Spidey had positive emotions this time around, so Eddie is a bigger douche and the symbiote is evil by nature, so making Eddie's character development go for a more anti-hero side would be complicated since he never got the "Must protect innocents!" mentality (Even though the comics version used that as a half assed excuse, and he killed innocents anyways, it does make minimal sense why that can be used to make him less evil), and you'd have to wonder why the symbiote would stick with him if he wasn't being as evil as he possibly could, sure retcons could be used, but Spectacular avoided having blatant retcons (Or having retcons at all, but maybe I just don't remember any), and it shouldn't start there lol.

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