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  1. #1
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    Default Daredevil 1964-1979 before Frank Miller

    Since Frank Miller introduced the modern darker side of Matt which I think was a great benefit to DD,how was the character before that? Was he just kind of floating around the MU with no clear direction? I know he had a regular title, obviously. And was there always a least a hint at the darker side even then? On a side note, DD has had the fortunate benefit of having a lot of great writers even till today. If memory serves, I think Stan Lee stayed on the book for a while but still a little less than Spider-Man and has said that issue 47 was his favorite issue that he'd done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CTTT View Post
    Was he just kind of floating around the MU with no clear direction?
    Exactly.

    Daredevil lacked a clear identity for decades. Stan Lee introduced him as a blind acrobatic hero who was wisecracking like Spider-Man. That didn't work because Matt Murdock was a committed lawyer by day. Murdoch was a street level hero without powers and yet he fought Namor and teamed up a few times with the Fantastic Four. Then they moved him out of New York to San Francisco and made him a partner to Black Widow. So it was scattered in focus.

    And was there always a least a hint at the darker side even then?
    There were more than hints. The stuff that Miller developed in his run, which he is known for -- Matt's Catholicism, Bullseye -- all came before him. Miller simply took that to another level and made it a defining part of the character and title. Karen Page who became the co-star of BORN AGAIN, the greatest Daredevil story (and personally the greatest love story in Marvel comics in any single arc), was a typical Silver Age Stan Lee girlfriend (think Sue Storm, Gwen Stacy) blonde and airy. Eventually she got written out of the books and sent to Hollywood when she found out that Matt was Daredevil and intended to be forgotten and done away with.

    Miller said that the problem with Daredevil in the older stories was that he was intended to be "inspiritationlly disadvantaged". The famous story where he fought Namor for instance, the moral was "look how this blind man struggles so hard in his futile effort to match and level up to the supe". We see this in Daredevil's appearances in Fantastic Four, the "Battle of the Baxter Building" story where again Daredevil arrives and leads the FF but he gets taken out and beaten down and the story is again how this noble suffering blind man is trying to hard.

    Miller felt, and I agree with him here, that this was condescending and patronizing. He felt that Matt had to work as an individual with his own personality and strength and not merely as an object of pity among readers. So he scaled the stories down, introduced villains that were tough for Matt to beat but not impossible to overcome. He introduced Elektra as the great love of Matt's life, which meant that villainesses like Black Widow and so on, were rebound and replacements for Matt in place of Elektra and not defining him. So that's what Miller did. Miller took inspiration from Will Eisner's The Spirit and other parts of late 70s and 80s culture for his run on DD (TAXI DRIVER is obviously a major influence on him).

    On a side note, DD has had the fortunate benefit of having a lot of great writers even till today.
    After Miller, you had a great run with Ann Nocenti, and then a long decade in the 90s with mediocre stories until Bendis came in with his run with Alex Maleev (some will give credit to Guardian Devil but I hate that story). And then after Bendis you had Brubaker, and then you had Mark Waid, and then Charles Soule whose run is not held in very high regard. Now it's with Zdarsky who everyone likes.

    So I wouldn't say it's been super-consistent all the way through.

  3. #3
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    Honestly, Daredevil now feels trapped in the identity that Millar gave him. He’ll forever be a “low-tier” superhero now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Honestly, Daredevil now feels trapped in the identity that Millar gave him. He’ll forever be a “low-tier” superhero now.
    I think Mark Waid really pushed that idea away for a while, so I think there is a chance to get him out of the Miller trappings (even Nocenti's run had some less grounded content). I think the main problem is that so many writers have grown up with DD being gritty. Just need another writer like Waid to step in. As much as i loved the Netflix show, I think that was the reason they went back to a darker DD with Soule's run.

  5. #5
    Ultimate Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    I agree w. Revolutionary_Jack when he says DD lacked a clear identity. Miller really distilled many of the character’s traits into a potent formula.

    But, that led to this...:
    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Honestly, Daredevil now feels trapped in the identity that Millar gave him. He’ll forever be a “low-tier” superhero now.
    The dark and gritty DD under Miller was great, and a lot of what came after was good, but for me anyway, it got repetitive, and the quality went down. Everyone was trying to ape Miller to some degree though, and I lost interest in seeing that.
    Jack The Tripper’s right in that Waid pushed DD away from the Miller trappings. It was the most interesting he'd been in years for me.

    There’s got to be someone who can strike a balance w. this character that acknowledges Miller’s contributions while breaking new ground. A take on the character I remember liking was by Daniel G. Chichester in the 1997 Batman Daredevil crossover.





    He seemed to get that yes, DD was dark and gritty, but that it came from a different place than Batman; he seemed to make Daredevil into a bit of an adrenaline junkie, and someone who took his hero-ing seriously while still realizing that what he does is pretty badass.
    A Daredevil like that works facing off against low level thugs and villains, but is cocky enough and confident of his abilities to the point where he’ll square up against high powered bad guys and even other heroes.
    I think that opens him up to a lot of possibilities outside of redoing Miller and just wrecking his life over and over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Honestly, Daredevil now feels trapped in the identity that Millar gave him. He’ll forever be a “low-tier” superhero now.
    Daredevil has had top talent like Bendis, Brubaker, Waid, Zdarsky lining up to write his title. That's far from being "low-tier". You make him sound like Moon Knight.

    What exactly do you mean by low-tier? Being on Netflix...this kind of snobbery is not of interest to me.

    Daredevil is a far more presitigious title and ongoing than say, Iron Man. Far more great Daredevil stories and great Daredevil runs than Iron Man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Riv86672 View Post
    The dark and gritty DD under Miller was great, and a lot of what came after was good, but for me anyway, it got repetitive, and the quality went down.
    Bendis, Brubaker, Zdarsky all wrote darker takes on Matt and the quality didn't go down, and Nocenti's Daredevil which followed Miller was quite dark too, sometimes darker.



    Nowadays there's a tendency to rail against dark stories or dark characters reflexively as a kind of prolonged backlash to 90s grim-and-gritty. Got news for y'all, the 90s are twenty years old at this point. The fact that some dark stories are badly done doesn't mean it's inherently bad or wrong. And the fact that dark content is still popular 2 decades+ from the 90s means that it's gonna be default and here to stay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Daredevil has had top talent like Bendis, Brubaker, Waid, Zdarsky lining up to write his title. That's far from being "low-tier". You make him sound like Moon Knight.

    What exactly do you mean by low-tier? Being on Netflix...this kind of snobbery is not of interest to me.

    Daredevil is a far more presitigious title and ongoing than say, Iron Man. Far more great Daredevil stories and great Daredevil runs than Iron Man.



    Bendis, Brubaker, Zdarsky all wrote darker takes on Matt and the quality didn't go down, and Nocenti's Daredevil which followed Miller was quite dark too, sometimes darker.



    Nowadays there's a tendency to rail against dark stories or dark characters reflexively as a kind of prolonged backlash to 90s grim-and-gritty. Got news for y'all, the 90s are twenty years old at this point. The fact that some dark stories are badly done doesn't mean it's inherently bad or wrong. And the fact that dark content is still popular 2 decades+ from the 90s means that it's gonna be default and here to stay.
    I'm not referring to the tone; I'm referring to the setting.

    Daredevil lives in a world where mad scientist and demonic entities not only exist but are common. The fact that he used to fight more fantastical villains make this more apparent.

    Rather than making it feel like fantastic villains don't fit in Daredevil's world, it makes it feel as though Daredevil doesn't belong in the Marvel World. That's what I meant by "limited".

  8. #8
    Ultimate Member Riv86672's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    l
    Bendis, Brubaker, Zdarsky all wrote darker takes on Matt and the quality didn't go down, and Nocenti's Daredevil which followed Miller was quite dark too, sometimes darker.
    That’s why I said...

    Quote Originally Posted by Riv86672 View Post
    but for me anyway
    ...I try not to generalize/present my opinions as facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Daredevil lives in a world where mad scientist and demonic entities not only exist but are common. The fact that he used to fight more fantastical villains make this more apparent.
    Not this "But shared Universe" logic again.

    Look every Marvel title fundamentally is intended to work as standalone. If you embrace fantasy across the board, every title will feel same-y, and in general that's a problem with the shared universe in general. At a certain point it stops feeling additive and it starts becoming stale and repetitive. The fantasy author Terry Pratchett created a fantastic shared universe called Discworld that explored different facets of his fantasy city. But he pointed out that because the Discworld police organizations (called the City Watch) tended to intersect and glue different parts better, that meant that every story became a Watch story over time.

    Daredevil's stories being low-key realistic and self-contained is a feature, not a bug. I loved the Netflix show because as it went along, it became an AVENGERS and SHIELD free zone, free of infestation from those ghouls. That Daredevil can work with little reference to the wider Marvel Universe speaks to his strength, whereas if Tony Stark wasn't an Avenger nobody would have any interest in him, that applies to RDJ too, without that stinger at the end of IM-1, nobody would have been too interested in a 8 movie IM franchise.

  10. #10
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    Daredevil 1964-1979 before Frank Miller
    Lots of beautiful Gene Colan art but not much in the way of story. Haven't read all of it but that's what I took away from it.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Daredevil's stories being low-key realistic and self-contained is a feature, not a bug. I loved the Netflix show because as it went along, it became an AVENGERS and SHIELD free zone, free of infestation from those ghouls. That Daredevil can work with little reference to the wider Marvel Universe speaks to his strength, whereas if Tony Stark wasn't an Avenger nobody would have any interest in him, that applies to RDJ too, without that stinger at the end of IM-1, nobody would have been too interested in a 8 movie IM franchise.
    It is nice to for Darecdevil to operate generally on his own. But that also makes those times when he does interact with the whole MU more special. Even the War of the Realms thing was fun when he gained Heimdall's powers. When he seeks out the help of other heroes or comes across their paths (most recently Iron Man), it's done believably, and not fantastically, even when or if the story does become a little fantastical.

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member Panic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Not this "But shared Universe" logic again.

    Look every Marvel title fundamentally is intended to work as standalone. If you embrace fantasy across the board, every title will feel same-y, and in general that's a problem with the shared universe in general. At a certain point it stops feeling additive and it starts becoming stale and repetitive. The fantasy author Terry Pratchett created a fantastic shared universe called Discworld that explored different facets of his fantasy city. But he pointed out that because the Discworld police organizations (called the City Watch) tended to intersect and glue different parts better, that meant that every story became a Watch story over time.

    Daredevil's stories being low-key realistic and self-contained is a feature, not a bug. I loved the Netflix show because as it went along, it became an AVENGERS and SHIELD free zone, free of infestation from those ghouls. That Daredevil can work with little reference to the wider Marvel Universe speaks to his strength, whereas if Tony Stark wasn't an Avenger nobody would have any interest in him, that applies to RDJ too, without that stinger at the end of IM-1, nobody would have been too interested in a 8 movie IM franchise.
    I'm not sure where this is coming from. Iron Man has always been a fun concept - certainly as a kid back in the seventies I found him more exciting than Captain America, Daredevil, or Thor - and the Iron Man film did not become a hit because of Nick Fury talking about the Avengers Initiative at the end.

    Before Miller redefined Daredevil I remember he came across as a less interesting Spider-Man-style hero - the both swung into combat, both had acrobatic styles, but Daredevil's civilian life was less interesting, he didn't really have any powers, and his rogue's gallery wasn't as good. It wasn't that his comic or concept were bad, it was just that Spider-Man was his closest analogue, and Spidey is, imo, one of the best realised super-hero concepts ever - compare most heroes to Spidey and they are going to come off worse. Miller changed all that with his noir-ish atmosphere and martial arts/gritty crime combo.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by cc008 View Post
    It is nice to for Darecdevil to operate generally on his own. But that also makes those times when he does interact with the whole MU more special. Even the War of the Realms thing was fun when he gained Heimdall's powers. When he seeks out the help of other heroes or comes across their paths (most recently Iron Man), it's done believably, and not fantastically, even when or if the story does become a little fantastical.
    I like that Daredevil, generally, operates on his own. I am glad that I only need to read one book to keep up on Matt vs. having to buy all the cross-over tie in stuff to keep track for what was going on. It's also being on his own that I think allows for writers to take more risks and not be as subject to editorial mandate.

    Not to say that I don't like the occasional cross-over such as War of Realms; however, I am glad that is not the norm. I also like when he does team up with other "street-level" heroes (or "people-level" as said in the latest issue) such as Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Jessica Jones, Spider-Man, etc. Matt has some great interactions with these characters and, in some ways, Matt is presented a bit as the leader of street level heroes in NYC.

    As for him being low-tier or feeling outside the Marvel Universe, I don't see that as an issue. It's a nice counter-balance to all the Avengers and cosmic stories that are being told. Yes, we need the Avengers saving the universe, but guess what? We also need someone dealing with the crime bosses, drug dealers and corruption. Plus I love how tied Matt is to his city and the people in it.

    As for the quality, show me another single character that has been as well written for as long as Matt? Yes, I know the 90's were rough, but it was rough for comics in general. As for overall books, there probably is a compelling argument for Claremont's X-Men being the best, but that is a team book. Certainly since around 2000 there hasn't been a more consistently good book (excusing the brief drop-off that was Shadowland).

    Do some of the writers riff off of Miller? In some ways, yes; however, I think the best ones (like Bendis/Brubaker) were able to do it in a way that was fresh and modern. Waid was able to do an almost 180 from Miller and deliver an amazing run. Daredevil: Yellow is also a great example of taking the early years of Daredevil and using it to create a great story.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by macjr33 View Post
    I like that Daredevil, generally, operates on his own. I am glad that I only need to read one book to keep up on Matt vs. having to buy all the cross-over tie in stuff to keep track for what was going on. It's also being on his own that I think allows for writers to take more risks and not be as subject to editorial mandate.

    Not to say that I don't like the occasional cross-over such as War of Realms; however, I am glad that is not the norm. I also like when he does team up with other "street-level" heroes (or "people-level" as said in the latest issue) such as Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Jessica Jones, Spider-Man, etc. Matt has some great interactions with these characters and, in some ways, Matt is presented a bit as the leader of street level heroes in NYC.

    As for him being low-tier or feeling outside the Marvel Universe, I don't see that as an issue. It's a nice counter-balance to all the Avengers and cosmic stories that are being told. Yes, we need the Avengers saving the universe, but guess what? We also need someone dealing with the crime bosses, drug dealers and corruption. Plus I love how tied Matt is to his city and the people in it.

    As for the quality, show me another single character that has been as well written for as long as Matt? Yes, I know the 90's were rough, but it was rough for comics in general. As for overall books, there probably is a compelling argument for Claremont's X-Men being the best, but that is a team book. Certainly since around 2000 there hasn't been a more consistently good book (excusing the brief drop-off that was Shadowland).

    Do some of the writers riff off of Miller? In some ways, yes; however, I think the best ones (like Bendis/Brubaker) were able to do it in a way that was fresh and modern. Waid was able to do an almost 180 from Miller and deliver an amazing run. Daredevil: Yellow is also a great example of taking the early years of Daredevil and using it to create a great story.
    I completely agree with you on all of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by macjr33 View Post
    As for the quality, show me another single character that has been as well written for as long as Matt? Yes, I know the 90's were rough, but it was rough for comics in general. As for overall books, there probably is a compelling argument for Claremont's X-Men being the best, but that is a team book. Certainly since around 2000 there hasn't been a more consistently good book (excusing the brief drop-off that was Shadowland).

    I think this is accurate. The only comparison might be Batman, who outside of the War Games era and some connective interludes went from Brubaker/Rucka to Morrison to Snyder to King.

    Silver Age DD just isn’t that good. Bad villains, silly subplots with a very small supporting cast, and it may be heresy but I’m not a Gene Colon fan. I find his art hard to follow and too impressionistic

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