Is it possible to write a Superhero-comic without vigilante -elements? If so, how?

[L.R Johansson]

The recent thread on torture got me thinking about the basics of Superhero comics, how vigilantism is at the core of the genre.

I.e, Spider-man beats many of his villains unconscious, Batman routinely interrogates and scares criminals in various creative ways.

Or, for that instance, New-52 Superman going back to the golden age roots, and lifting corrupt businessmen into the air, and jumping down a building, to get a confession out of him.

There's also often a depiction of the government as in general, less than benevolent, to the rest of society.

But can you do a superhero story without these tropes? Or are they intrinsic to the very nature of the power-fantasy, and removing them, would then take all of the fun out of the stories?

The physical confrontation might be hard to remove, since that's what makes superhero comics so entertaining - you want to see the good guys and bad guys tussle, it's fun.

There does appear to be a few examples within the genre that remove some of these tropes tho', such as:

Savage Dragon

Is basically a cop-procedural, similar to Hill Street Blues, but with superhero elements. The Dragon is a police-officer, and works more or less completely within the limits of the law, he's an appointed public enforcer.

The Ultimates

Are a team of superheroes whom are government-controlled, sanctioned, and in some cases, CREATED.The stories within therefore become very much so political, as they function as an extension of the armed forces, and are deployed against superhuman operatives controlled by other governments - sometimes covertly, sometimes not so covertly.

So, there does appear to be room for certain tropes to be removed, and it still being possible to write the stories, but some are obviously more difficult then others.

But what do you guys, out there, think? What other examples of less traditional vigilante-style superhero comics are there? And which ones do you find enjoyable?


An interesting side-note, is that removing these features from one hero at least, isn't necessary, nor possible: DR STRANGE.

Dr Strange isn't even a vigilante, since he's actually acting on the behalf of a higher authority, who's laws and judgement he carries out - the Vishanti. So, when he sends Baron Mordo to h*ll, he's not doing it because he wants revenge on him, like the Punisher, but because, well, that's his JOB.

And then there's the question of human rights-violations - hardly any of his enemies are actually humans, most of them are supernatural beings, that are probably as far evolved from humans as we are from reptiles or insects. Or in the case of villains like Shuma-Gorath, you can even argue that there's no rights to defend, since he might not actually be a LIVING being at all - he's some other kind of process, separate from what we know as life.

To speak of human rights, and due process, when your opponent does not have any human rights, since such rights are completely inapplicable, and your foe is beyond human judgement, is obviously fallible.

One might speak of mystic rights however, or cosmic rights - but those are obviously regulated within the book of the Vishanti, whom are ultra-evolved higher beings themselves, on a comparable level to most of the more exotic adversaries of Dr. Strange. Interestingly enough, the legalities of the laws of magic, are most likely actually BEYOND the true comprehension of someone like Dr Strange - mainly because he's human. He carries out the laws and biddings of the Vishanti, but he cannot possibly, TRULY understand what he's enforcing.
And that's a fact of simple computational economics - Dr Strange has a human brain, it has a Sentience Quotient of +13, only slighly more than double that of a dog ( +4 ) - this is the BARE MINIMUM, according to evolutionary computing -theory, of sentience. Theoretical super-beings are estimated to be capable of an SQ-score of +23 - TEN ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE greater than human beings. And that's probably around where I'd peg the Vishanti.

For a comparison, a being like Galactus would be pushing close to +50, the maximum score of sentience. ( the known laws of physics prohibit any greater processing-capability)

But Dr Strange is an extreme example, most superheroes do not have his authority, nor do they face his enemies, rather, their foes are more grounded, and human, and therefore elicit a human response.

[Tendrin]

I think that superheroes are, in many ways, an extension or perhaps more a descendant of the mythology of the old west. I think if you connect the dots between America's western folk heroes and American superheroes, you can see parallels between them in some instances. They've long since grown beyond that, of course, but the wandering lawbringer in a lawless world, bringing 'true justice' and karmic retribution to those who 'deserve it' (and, of course, they always do.). I don't think you can really separate superheroes, entirely, from the vigilante core in a lot of cases and you probably shouldn't. There's nothing wrong with wanting to see a straight up fight between symbolic representations of 'good' and 'evil'. They're larger than life mythological stories, after all.

[L.R Johansson]

I think that superheroes are, in many ways, an extension or perhaps more a descendant of the mythology of the old west. I think if you connect the dots between America's western folk heroes and American superheroes, you can see parallels between them in some instances. They've long since grown beyond that, of course, but the wandering lawbringer in a lawless world, bringing 'true justice' and karmic retribution to those who 'deserve it' (and, of course, they always do.). I don't think you can really separate superheroes, entirely, from the vigilante core in a lot of cases and you probably shouldn't. There's nothing wrong with wanting to see a straight up fight between symbolic representations of 'good' and 'evil'. They're larger than life mythological stories, after all.

Very succintly put, Tendrin. A fairly good assessment of superhero comics - not entirely unlike that of Grant Morrison himself. Certain aspects may not need to be explained, or done away with, since, well, it's not real. These are gods and monsters, these are allegories for our own inner desires and musings, not a documentary, or even a drama-novel.

Still, do you know of a superhero comic which isn't about vigilantism per say, at least not explicitly so?

I just got to thinking about the Green Lanterns - they're actually cops as well. They have regulations and laws that they enforce, and they are trained and rigorously tested, before they are let out into space, to use their new abilities. And it kinda' works - but perhaps only because they are SUPER-imposed against the backdrop of human justice, the human penal system.

Compared to the SQ +23 intellect of the Guardians of the Universe - we can always rest assured, that when the American justice system tries to get in the way of Hal Jordan enacting the law of Oa, they're most likely full of sh*t - since Hal Jordan gets his orders from a seemingly divine source - the Guardians are stand-ins for god itself - Hal Jordan is blessed with a divine right to exact justice, within the stories of the Green Lantern.

Another thing I got to thinking about - one of your favourite characters - the Sentry. When he's fighting the Void, and locking him up without a judge or jury, he's not ACTUALLY being a vigilante, now is he? He IS the Void - he IS the villain he's fighting - so that's not the equivalent of vigilantism, of working outside the law - that is, to some extent, more like existential angst, or self-guilt, a wrestling with your own conscience.

If the person he's robbing of rights, of circumventing due process, of using excessive force on, is actually himself... then no rights have been violated, and there is nothing to debate, because nothing illegal just happened.

[Tendrin]

Very succintly put, Tendrin. A fairly good assessment of superhero comics - not entirely unlike that of Grant Morrison himself. Certain aspects may not need to be explained, or done away with, since, well, it's not real. These are gods and monsters, these are allegories for our own inner desires and musings, not a documentary, or even a drama-novel.

Whoa, well. Uh. Thanks. It's good to be in some fine company.

Still, do you know of a superhero comic which isn't about vigilantism per say, at least not explicitly so?

I am sure there are a bunch out there. I don't really think of Cap as a vigilante, for example, since he's usually endorsed. Except when he's not because cue drama.

I just got to thinking about the Green Lanterns - they're actually cops as well. They have regulations and laws that they enforce, and they are trained and rigorously tested, before they are let out into space, to use their new abilities. And it kinda' works - but perhaps only because they are SUPER-imposed against the backdrop of human justice, the human penal system

Compared to the SQ +23 intellect of the Guardians of the Universe - we can always rest assured, that when the American justice system tries to get in the way of Hal Jordan enacting the law of Oa, they're most likely full of sh*t - since Hal Jordan gets his orders from a seemingly divine source - the Guardians are stand-ins for god itself - Hal Jordan is blessed with a divine right to exact justice, within the stories of the Green Lantern.

Of course, the Guardians have since been demoted to fallible, corrupt, and outright evil. Which isn't really surprising, to me. In addition to the old axiom about absolute power, the Guardians also represented authority, and authority is often portrayed as intrinsically bad, corrupt, and inefficient to justify our heroes actions and give them something to strive against. Personally, I would've preferred the Guardians to be allowed to actually not be total assholes. It's like the only story anyone can think to do with them. Instead of letting them be Yoda, every time the Guardians are brought back, it feels like they're promptly relegated back to showing how awful they are, with each time being worse than the one before. I think part of it is that it's a knee-jerk anti-authoritarianism, and a sort of humano-centric arrogance. Anytime anything is portrayed as 'wiser' than humans, it isn't long before a storyline comes along to show it's not so. Gene Roddenberry wanted to show a certain kind of utopian ideal future, and people kept trying to track mud on it. It's understandable. There's drama in that mud.

Another thing I got to thinking about - one of your favourite characters - the Sentry. When he's fighting the Void, and locking him up without a judge or jury, he's not ACTUALLY being a vigilante, now is he? He IS the Void - he IS the villain he's fighting - so that's not the equivalent of vigilantism, of working outside the law - that is, to some extent, more like existential angst, or self-guilt, a wrestling with your own conscience.

Sentry isn't something I'd typically say follows the vigilante model either. When working with CLOC, he tended to focus on stopping a million little disasters. Because he was ambivalent about even using his powers to do this, the Void 'balanced' this out by acting in equal evil, so that nothing really changed. But in the end, yeah, I'd say the Sentry embodies the concept that man is his worst enemy.

If the person he's robbing of rights, of circumventing due process, of using excessive force on, is actually himself... then no rights have been violated, and there is nothing to debate, because nothing illegal just happened.

[MyriVerse]

The superhero lineage goes back much, much further than tales of the Old West. The vast majority of the great epic heroic figures of mankind have been, in essence, vigilantes.

[ed2962]

It would undercut the core of certain characters, but it wouldn't be hard at all. There wouldn't be a point to the Punisher being sanctioned by state or local govt. Part of what made Spiderman unique in the early days is that half the public in the MU liked him and half of them hated him.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure Batman was deputized at one point long ago ( it might have only been on the TV show). Daredevil recently has been working as a consultant for law enforcement in Sf. So, it's not impossible to have superheroes working in some sort of semi-official manner.

[Tendrin]

The superhero lineage goes back much, much further than tales of the Old West. The vast majority of the great epic heroic figures of mankind have been, in essence, vigilantes.

Well, it certainly does go back to mythology, for sure, as well. But I'd say the vigilante/crimestopping aspects specifically are more directly tied to our own American mythology, which is the old west, imo. xD

But similar concepts have existed since time immemorial.

[Qwathings]

During the Silver Age a lot of the DC heroes worked alongside the police. Batman was even deputized by the Gotham PD (he had a special bat-shaped, diamond-studded badge). In the Golden Age a lot of heroes worked for the US government (Captain America was created by the military, the Justice Society of America was formed by the present). Namor, Black Panther, and Black Bolt are kings, and probably fall under the domain of their own laws. Thor is a prince, and sometimes king, of Asgard, and he's also a god. The Fantastic Four is often seen working with the military and police, and are really more of explorers than crime fighters.

In recent years, any Marvel hero that was registered was technically a member of a government sanctioned law enforcement agency. Captain America is often depicted as working alongside SHIELD. Bruce Banner was also recently working for SHIELD. Ironically, Superior Spider-man had the support of the mayor's office and police for most of his tenure.

Whenever we see a superhero averting, or rescuing people from, a disaster they aren't acting as vigilantes.

[dragonmp93]

Well, about héroes that dont act as vigilantes, they only one i can think of is the new ms. marvel, (well kind-of).

[pageturner]

TLDR the OP but DD is now working formally with the police so that at least reduces his vigilante status.

[L.R Johansson]

TLDR the OP but DD is now working formally with the police so that at least reduces his vigilante status.

That quite correct, but we're still seeing him do acts of vigilantism in just about every issue. : \ There's any number of things he's done in recent issues, which aren't within the reaches of the law, or his partnership with the law.

It is true that there are quite a few examples of writing superheroes with smaller elements of vigilantism than say classic DD or Batman, tho'. I was actually surprised at how many examples there are, when I saw the examples in this thread.

The vigilante -aspect does seem to be an intrinsic part of the heroic myth however, I can definitely see what Myriverse means when he mentions the heroes of old, Herakles and Robin Hood for instance, are clearly vigilantes.

And the superhero is definitely a creation that comes in direct lineage from that tradition - Superman is based on pulp-stories, like Doc Savage, who comes from those American folk-hero myths Tendrin mentions, but Superman is equally based on mythic heroes - Atlas and Samson, to be correct.

And since Superman is the basis for all Superheroes, we then find the vigiliantism in there.

With that said, I'm not sure if I'm arguing for vigilante justice or not... I suppose I believe it to be dangerous in real life, but as part of mythology, it is an intrinsic and immovable part - it simply has to be there, in some aspect or another.

[dragonmp93]

That quite correct, but we're still seeing him do acts of vigilantism in just about every issue. : \ There's any number of things he's done in recent issues, which aren't within the reaches of the law, or his partnership with the law.

It is true that there are quite a few examples of writing superheroes with smaller elements of vigilantism than say classic DD or Batman, tho'. I was actually surprised at how many examples there are, when I saw the examples in this thread.

The vigilante -aspect does seem to be an intrinsic part of the heroic myth however, I can definitely see what Myriverse means when he mentions the heroes of old, Herakles and Robin Hood for instance, are clearly vigilantes.

And the superhero is definitely a creation that comes in direct lineage from that tradition - Superman is based on pulp-stories, like Doc Savage, who comes from those American folk-hero myths Tendrin mentions, but Superman is equally based on mythic heroes - Atlas and Samson, to be correct.

And since Superman is the basis for all Superheroes, we then find the vigiliantism in there.

With that said, I'm not sure if I'm arguing for vigilante justice or not... I suppose I believe it to be dangerous in real life, but as part of mythology, it is an intrinsic and immovable part - it simply has to be there, in some aspect or another.

Yeah, being a vigilante in real life tends to not be a good idea; but due to the hellhole nature of the DC and Marvel universes, sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

And i think that given the current circumstance of the marvel universe, its easier to write the vigilante elements out of the avengers books than out the x-men books.

[Dmreyn]

I don't really follow up on the Avengers, but aren't they sanctioned by the government? Spider-Man used to play the "but I'm an Avenger!" card whenever things got heated up with the law.

Also, Agent Venom - superhero working for the U.S. military, and now the Avengers

[jphamlore]

Fin Fang Four. It's about the rehabilitation of former monsters who are being supervised by Reed Richards. Fing Fang Foom for example accepts being shrunk to near human size and working as a cook in the kitchen of a restaurant in the Baxter Building. It is a story very pro-enlightened-institutions and accepting being a small part of a much bigger whole.

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources...fin-fang-four/

[jackolover]

I think that superheroes are, in many ways, an extension or perhaps more a descendant of the mythology of the old west. I think if you connect the dots between America's western folk heroes and American superheroes, you can see parallels between them in some instances. They've long since grown beyond that, of course, but the wandering lawbringer in a lawless world, bringing 'true justice' and karmic retribution to those who 'deserve it' (and, of course, they always do.). I don't think you can really separate superheroes, entirely, from the vigilante core in a lot of cases and you probably shouldn't. There's nothing wrong with wanting to see a straight up fight between symbolic representations of 'good' and 'evil'. They're larger than life mythological stories, after all.

I agree.

The law and order aspect of human rights in a shoot out is pushed to the wayside. There is no room for giving your opponent the benefit of the doubt, unless you are bullet proof like Superman, but even he can be duped with Kyptonite, so as much as the norms of human rights are nice to abide by, the reality is in the Wild West as in the super heroes world, you make sure your opponent is down and out, so human rights and laws don't apply. If a Man wants to ambush you, or call you out, as happens a lot in super hero comics, you don't adhere to laws when your life is on the line. It's self defence and to hell with the bad guys human rights.