Myths about Superman

[Jim Kelly]

Can we move on to other myths about Superman?

[manwhohaseverything]

So your entire argument is based on how you view the characters. Got it.

No, my argument is based on the transformation and tonal shift that occurred to the character in the earlier years. Saying cap rippedoff superman is like saying superman is ripoff of Edgar Rice Burroughs characters and zorro.Furthermore,there weren't much subversions with superman of these old heroes. Batman on the other hand did subvert aspects from characters like superman, shadow, zorro... Etc.Cap never was a vigilante, nor did he like flexing much muscles to showoff(as far as i have read) . His was a story of boy who became the savior. There was genuine innocence and good there. Superman was making statements from the get go. The s itself is one.If you ask me, the company buried captain marvel.

[Superfan90]

No, my argument is based on the transformation and tonal shift that occurred to the character in the earlier years. Saying cap rippedoff superman is like saying superman is ripoff of Edgar Rice Burroughs characters and zorro.Furthermore,there weren't much subversions with superman of these old heroes. Batman on the other hand did subvert aspects from characters like superman, shadow, zorro... Etc.Cap never was a vigilante, nor did he like flexing much muscles to showoff(as far as i have read) . His was a story of boy who became the savior. There was genuine innocence and good there. Superman was making statements from the get go. The s itself is one.If you ask me, the company buried captain marvel.

You're again showing ignorance of the actual stories you're referring. The courts found that Captain marvel ripped off Superman panel from panel, feats by feats.

Also no, DC didn't bury Captain marvel, Fawcett had option for another appeal but the sales had been so abysmal that Captain Marvel had been replaced by a talking dog in his own comic and that's why Fawcett folded down its operations. . It was low sales which killed Captain Marvel.

[manwhohaseverything]

You're again showing ignorance of the actual stories you're referring. The courts found that Captain marvel ripped off Superman panel from panel, feats by feats.

Also no, DC didn't bury Captain marvel, Fawcett had option for another appeal but the sales had been so abysmal that Captain Marvel had been replaced by a talking dog in his own comic and that's why Fawcett folded down its operations. . It was low sales which killed Captain Marvel.

Nah! I am going by what i felt reading the books. You didn't provide any links that said the testimonies were proven false in court. If you have i would happily oblige.All you did was, the provide the other argument put forth by the defendend as a "even if we did, the accusers failed to do so and so. Therefore, accused can do so and so".
This is what i know is the only thing that stands againts my assessment. Fawcett's circulation director Roscoe Kent Fawcett recalled telling the staff, "Give me a Superman, only have his other identity be a 10- or 12-year-old boy rather than a man".

While it is true that the editorial directive was to “[create] a Superman, only have his alter ego be a 10–12-year old boy,” the court found that there was no attempt to deceive the reader into thinking that Captain Marvel was Superman, or that a Captain Marvel comic book was a Superman comic book, so any arguments as to whether the character of Captain Marvel violated the copyright on the character of Superman were invalid.The characters were distinctive superman was borderline zorro and billy was a boyscout.
Will Lieberson said, only one of 154 instances of similar feats produced by dc wasn't countered as not being copied by Fawcett .
https://archive.vn/20140906072002/ht...t-publication/
From the link you provided

Copying
The evidence as to actual copying is conflicting.

Cap actually copying superman would be similar to superman copying zorro. Face it, superman is maskless zorro with scifi strength instead of a sword.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

The stories were better I agree. But the character was still a blatant ripoff and its not just me, courts accepted it TWICE.

Why do you think I'm saying differently? I literally said that he was ripoff in my first post. However, that's hardly a knock on the character since the creative teams at Fawcett took the character in a very different direction, and Superman is no stranger to also ripping off other characters, including from Captain Marvel, Doc Savage, and others.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Can we move on to other myths about Superman?

I honestly can't think of any. Most of them are based upon personal preference and ignorance, like the old "Superman is boring because he can do anything" argument.

[Superfan90]

Nah! I am going by what i felt reading the books. You didn't provide any links that said the testimonies were proven false in court. If you have i would happily oblige.All you did was, the provide the other argument put forth by the defendend as a "even if we did, the accusers failed to do so and so. Therefore, accused can do so and so".
This is what i know is the only thing that stands againts my assessment. Fawcett's circulation director Roscoe Kent Fawcett recalled telling the staff, "Give me a Superman, only have his other identity be a 10- or 12-year-old boy rather than a man".

While it is true that the editorial directive was to “[create] a Superman, only have his alter ego be a 10–12-year old boy,” the court found that there was no attempt to deceive the reader into thinking that Captain Marvel was Superman, or that a Captain Marvel comic book was a Superman comic book, so any arguments as to whether the character of Captain Marvel violated the copyright on the character of Superman were invalid.The characters were distinctive superman was borderline zorro and billy was a boyscout.
Will Lieberson said, only one of 154 instances of similar feats produced by dc wasn't countered as not being copied by Fawcett .
https://archive.vn/20140906072002/ht...t-publication/
From the link you provided

Cap actually copying superman would be similar to superman copying zorro. Face it, superman is maskless zorro with scifi strength instead of a sword.

Again you're picking and choosing what to post. Like I said the previous links I've given shows that the courts declared Cap a ripoff twice.

[DrNewGod]

Wow. I don't think I've seen a thread descend into a bar fight this fast in some time.

Can we move on to other myths about Superman?

To Jim's gentlemanly point: Superman was the first superhero. Almost every trope associated with superheroes had been done before Action Comics #1.

• Secret Identities? The Scarlet Pimpernel.
• Characters getting superpowers in alien environments? John Carter of Mars.
• Capes and outlandish costumes? Flash Gordon

In fact, Superman was far closer to his pulp ancestors than what we now think of as superheroes. Aside from his attitude, the character spent a lot less time in costume in his first few adventures than he did in a variety of disguises.

[Jim Kelly]

I'll try to think up some "myths"--although some might simply be bones of contention.

George Reeves committed suicide.
Lois Lane is stupid.
Luthor being bald was an artist's mistake.
Luthor hates Superman because he made him bald.
Superman is not an American citizen.
Every actor who ever played Superman or one of his supporting cast is cursed.
Pre-Crisis, Clark Kent always acted like a coward in public.
Joe Shuster was totally blind and only drew a handful of Superman stories.
Superman is not Canadian.
The Flash is faster than Superman.
Batman is the better super-hero.

[Powerboy]

Everybody was ripping everyone else off in comics.

Superman owes a lot to John Carter of Mars, Flash Gordon, and Gladiator. His Fortress of Solitude is blatantly ripped off from Doc Samson.

Captain Marvel was absolutely ripping off Superman, but with an ingenious twist of making his alter ego a boy rather than a grown man. This is why Captain Marvel/Shazam is such a great character.

Yes. There was John Carter. Also, Superman's initial powers were not only the same as Hugo Danner from Philip Wylie's novel, "Gladiator" but Superman had those powers to the exact same level at the beginning. Bursting shell/ 8th of a mile/ speeding train, etc.

As you said, everybody was ripping off everybody in comics. It was a big deal because it was all just getting started and there were far fewer characters. Nowadays, nobody would even think Captain Marvel was a ripoff of Superman were he just starting today.

Yeah, we had a lot of characters with very much the same or very similar powers. But John Carter, Hugo Danner, Superman and Captain Marvel were all very different characters with very different backgrounds once you get past the basic powers. Carter wasn't doing the sorts of things or in the situations Danner was in and Danner wasn't in the situations Superman was in. Early Superman was very much a fighter against social evils while Cap was in a far more whimsical world.

[Powerboy]

No captain marvel was noble white knight in shining armour, messiah figure (as far as i can remember) . He wasn't a strongman. Phantom was a strongman. Superman was a strongman. Batman was a strongman because superman was one. Allmight and deku are strongmen. Having strength does not make you a strongman. How that strength is portrayed and came to be also matters. Secret identity thing came from zorro btw. Phantom was the first strongman.

There were characters with flight before captain marvel and superman. But, superman in an attempt to get more younger viewership and please younger demographics whom were enthralled by billy batson started taking on more characterstics like captain marvel. It wasn't just flight. His personality was shifting. His motivations had a shift. His powers became more amplified like his intelligence, speed... Etc. His modus operandi changed. This process cemented and completed after comics code authority.

This idea that cap ripped of superman is entirely false. Which is what i was challenging .They took superficial aspects of the character.I am not saying superman ripped off captain marvel.But, he did become captain marvel regardless. Modern superman is actually captain marvel with old pulp heroes like tarzan, zorro... Etc on the side or non existant. While, i do believe the creators understood the competition. They never took the character away from the pulp origins like what happened later in the date. In the goldenage, superman was the pinnacle and amalgamation of all the pulp heroes like zorro, john carter, tarzan,... So on and so forth.


Winning a lawsuit and proving an argument true in court is two different thing.one may or may not lead to another happening.

At the time, certain things like the costumes that were meant to emulate Circus strongman costumes, plus the symbol on the chest, could be argued as a ripoffs. Today, there are so many characters that meet that description that you couldn't get it into court.

And, of course, I think we are all in agreement that, by the same argument, Superman rips off John Carter and Hugo Danner because it's the same logic if someone wants to make the ripoff argument and ignore the originality of 95% of the characters. That is to say that 95% of Superman is original and 95% of Cap is original.

[Powerboy]

I'll try to think up some "myths"--although some might simply be bones of contention.

George Reeves committed suicide.
Lois Lane is stupid.
Luthor being bald was an artist's mistake.
Luthor hates Superman because he made him bald.
Superman is not an American citizen.
Every actor who ever played Superman or one of his supporting cast is cursed.
Pre-Crisis, Clark Kent always acted like a coward in public.
Joe Shuster was totally blind and only drew a handful of Superman stories.
Superman is not Canadian.
The Flash is faster than Superman.
Batman is the better super-hero.

Well, I remember seeing an interview with a Forensics expert who said that anyone who thinks the death of George Reeves doesn't fit as a suicide just doesn't know anything about forensics. He said a lot has obviously changed between 1959 and the present but he concurs with the findings of the coroner in 1959 that this was a classic suicide. The things most people think don't make sense are stuff from movie and television suicides as opposed to reality, especially the physical evidence.

The Lois Lane thing is based on people applying real world standards to the stories. Superman disguises himself by wearing glasses. That's the world Lois lives in. She's not stupid just because she can't figure out who Superman is in that story setting.

The Luthor hates Superman because he made him bald thing probably depends on which continuity and even which story.

A Post-Crisis myth is that Superman is ignorant of science. We probably can "thank" DKR for that one.

[Stanlos]

The myths I see most about Supes are the following:

Superman is boring
Superman is helpless against magic welders
Superman can't fight

[Kuwagaton]

There was a thread on Superman being cursed. The whole magic thing, like many things I've seen mentioned here, is true enough to many interpretations. But I think people forget the difference between vulnerability and an effect that negates his powers. Magic doesn't cancel his powers, so even if he's vulnerable he's not helpless. He survived spells that would kill and even use his superhuman tolerance to withstand spells he had dealt with previously.

[manwhohaseverything]

At the time, certain things like the costumes that were meant to emulate Circus strongman costumes, plus the symbol on the chest, could be argued as a ripoffs. Today, there are so many characters that meet that description that you couldn't get it into court.

And, of course, I think we are all in agreement that, by the same argument, Superman rips off John Carter and Hugo Danner because it's the same logic if someone wants to make the ripoff argument and ignore the originality of 95% of the characters. That is to say that 95% of Superman is original and 95% of Cap is original.

And those characters of edger rice Burrough like tarzan and john carter have inspirations as well.For instance, Tarzan took inspiration from jungle book that much i know of. Does that mean they are rip-offs? We need something to build something. That's just how it is and modern scifi/fantasy owes itself to three people Edgar Rice Burroughs, Rudyard Kipling,... Etc. From star wars to avatar, everything is inspired by what these guys created.

Finally on a side note, siegel and shuster didn't use weaker gravity as explanation. Siegel and shuster's explanation had superman's physiology being the reason. They compared superman to insects and bugs.Gravity was a later explanation.