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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Joe Quesada after he stepped down as EIC became Chief Creative Officer, per wikipedia, tasked to "ensure that all portrayals of Marvel's characters and stories remain true to the essence of Marvel history." In the case of the cartoons, he was producer on the USM trash, and the current Marvel's Spider-Man cartoon. In the Marvel's Spider-Man cartoon, Quesada voices a character of an avuncular coffee-shop owner...which is the first time any editor other than Stan Lee has promoted himself that way. So yeah, Quesada does airs of wanting to promote himself as a brand alongside Spider-Man and he does have and has exercised a say on Spider-Man.
    Spot on. Not sure if he did it to promote himself individually but, as Marvel EiC, he definitely tried to mirror Stan's approach by presenting himself as the "face" of Marvel during his tenure. He was certainly more present than Defalco or Harras were.

    Didn't Quesada also fancy himself as a bit of a superstar before he got the EiC gig? Not in terms of his artistic skills, but that he actively cultivated relationships with certain independent artists and movie directors/writers who had a interest in comics? I remember a story about how he and Palmiotti would host/attend parties featuring such individuals. It certainly served him well at Marvel because it allowed him to bring in people that Marvel likely never would have otherwise.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD155 View Post
    I’m not sure if OMD will be reversed. I think what most of us want is it for it to at least be addressed and maybe overcome. The damage in a sense as already been done by Marvel over the years. You cant suddenly snap your fingers and just have everything go back to what it was. You can however have this story show the consequences of doing what Peter did, show that karma always come back around, your sins always catch up to you and have a story about redemption where Peter/MJ attempt to atone and make things right in some way.
    This.

    A defining trait of Spider-man is the fact that "actions have consequences". Peter means well, but sometimes his choices often leads to negative things happening: Uncle Ben being murdered by a criminal he chose not to stop when he had the chance, Him bringing the Symbiote to earth and pathing the way for Venom's creation by ruining Eddie Brock etc.

    The list is endless.

    However, with OMD, there was never been any sort of consequence. Okay, so he lost his marriage. But what about the effect it had on those around him? Peter (or MJ rather) made a literal deal with the devil. The fact there has never been some kind of reckoning for that over the years is hard to swallow. I just think everyone was content to just let it be as the story is incredibly toxic in comic fandom. Nobody wanted to dredge it up again. Until now.

    It won't be reversed. It likely never will. The most likely scenario is, as others have mentioned, Peter and MJ are made aware of what happened and will add another layer of guilt on Peter's shoulders. It can't be reversed, but it can be overcome. Which is what is probably going to happen.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    This.

    A defining trait of Spider-man is the fact that "actions have consequences". Peter means well, but sometimes his choices often leads to negative things happening: Uncle Ben being murdered by a criminal he chose not to stop when he had the chance, Him bringing the Symbiote to earth and pathing the way for Venom's creation by ruining Eddie Brock etc.

    The list is endless.

    However, with OMD, there was never been any sort of consequence. Okay, so he lost his marriage. But what about the effect it had on those around him? Peter (or MJ rather) made a literal deal with the devil. The fact there has never been some kind of reckoning for that over the years is hard to swallow. I just think everyone was content to just let it be as the story is incredibly toxic in comic fandom. Nobody wanted to dredge it up again. Until now.

    It won't be reversed. It likely never will. The most likely scenario is, as others have mentioned, Peter and MJ are made aware of what happened and will add another layer of guilt on Peter's shoulders. It can't be reversed, but it can be overcome. Which is what is probably going to happen.
    I agree with just about everything you said. There was so much wrong with OMD from a story aspect but also from a character point of view. One of the defining element to Spider-man is that there are always consequences for your actions. His entire basis for being a super hero is an example of that with Uncle Ben. However, with OMD that was never the case. Marvel essentially had our hero make a deal with the devil and somehow tried to justify it as him doing the "right" thing. Peter was allowed to basically skate away free.

    As far as "Last Remains" serving to add another layer of guilt to Peter and MJ. I'm all for that just as long as this isn't an example of the hero pushing his love interest away to protect her as a result of this guilt. I don't want this added layer of guilt to be used by Marvel as an attempt to write them apart from each other again. I don't understand why Marvel finds it so difficult to understand that the world of Spider-man comics just work better when MJ is there.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD155 View Post
    I agree with just about everything you said. There was so much wrong with OMD from a story aspect but also from a character point of view. One of the defining element to Spider-man is that there are always consequences for your actions. His entire basis for being a super hero is an example of that with Uncle Ben. However, with OMD that was never the case. Marvel essentially had our hero make a deal with the devil and somehow tried to justify it as him doing the "right" thing. Peter was allowed to basically skate away free.

    As far as "Last Remains" serving to add another layer of guilt to Peter and MJ. I'm all for that just as long as this isn't an example of the hero pushing his love interest away to protect her as a result of this guilt. I don't want this added layer of guilt to be used by Marvel as an attempt to write them apart from each other again. I don't understand why Marvel finds it so difficult to understand that the world of Spider-man comics just work better when MJ is there.
    I don't think anyone's been missing the throwaway love interests of the past era, although admittedly we haven't gotten a lot of in-depth Peter and MJ time since she went off to the movie.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    This.

    A defining trait of Spider-man is the fact that "actions have consequences". Peter means well, but sometimes his choices often leads to negative things happening: Uncle Ben being murdered by a criminal he chose not to stop when he had the chance, Him bringing the Symbiote to earth and pathing the way for Venom's creation by ruining Eddie Brock etc.

    The list is endless.

    However, with OMD, there was never been any sort of consequence. Okay, so he lost his marriage. But what about the effect it had on those around him? Peter (or MJ rather) made a literal deal with the devil. The fact there has never been some kind of reckoning for that over the years is hard to swallow. I just think everyone was content to just let it be as the story is incredibly toxic in comic fandom. Nobody wanted to dredge it up again. Until now.

    It won't be reversed. It likely never will. The most likely scenario is, as others have mentioned, Peter and MJ are made aware of what happened and will add another layer of guilt on Peter's shoulders. It can't be reversed, but it can be overcome. Which is what is probably going to happen.
    "Actions have consequences"? I thought the lesson was "no matter what choice you make, you're going to get screwed over".

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    However, with OMD, there was never been any sort of consequence. Okay, so he lost his marriage.
    might get this post tattooed onto my back
    Quote Originally Posted by Cool Guy
    There are creatures science refuses to recognize...but if new technology makes us question what is real...If OUR EYES SEE IT...IF OUR CAMERAS CAPTURE IT...DOES IT EXIST? ENTER A REALM WHERE FACT meets FICTION....SCIENCE meets LEGEND...WHERE NIGHTMARES COME TO LIFE...DO YOU BELIEVE?"

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    Spot on. Not sure if he did it to promote himself individually but, as Marvel EiC, he definitely tried to mirror Stan's approach by presenting himself as the "face" of Marvel during his tenure. He was certainly more present than Defalco or Harras were.
    And even Jim Shooter for that matter.

  8. #98
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    I wish they could finally explain is what the webs is all of this, because I understand less and less each time. By what I read in the last issue, it appears this all about Peter's deal with Mephisto in OMD, and I would really like that undone. But if "End of a Era" is what this means, it worries me which will be the consequences of undo it. I mean, could EVERYBODY now remember Peter's secret identity? That will definitely turn Peter's life into a Hell, not to mention Aunt May would surely die.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    "Actions have consequences"? I thought the lesson was "no matter what choice you make, you're going to get screwed over".
    From a certain point of view, yes. But Peter never really got screwed by OMD. Apart from the marriage, it benefited him. A deal was made with the devil and Peter got away with it. There should have been a reckoning. The only reason we never got that is because subsequent writers decided to steer clear of the entire matter. Between this and Hydra Cap, Nick Spencer is proving he doesn't mind getting his hands dirty.

    OMD happened. That horse bolted long ago. It can't be changed/reversed but, some sort of consequence needs to come from the whole thing. That is what we are (hopefully) seeing and is long overdue. If you thought Peter's sense of guilt and responsibility were heavy before, just wait until the truth is known.
    Last edited by Somecrazyaussie; 11-01-2020 at 04:52 PM.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    From a certain point of view, yes. But Peter never really got screwed by OMD. Apart from the marriage, it benefited him. A deal was made with the devil and Peter got away with it.
    Wasn't that the whole reason why Peter (and MJ) made the deal in the first place?

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    From a certain point of view, yes. But Peter never really got screwed by OMD. Apart from the marriage, it benefited him. A deal was made with the devil and Peter got away with it. There should have been a reckoning. The only reason we never got that is because subsequent writers decided to steer clear of the entire matter. Between this and Hydra Cap, Nick Spencer is proving he doesn't mind getting his hands dirty.

    OMD happened. That horse bolted long ago. It can't be changed/reversed but, some sort of consequence needs to come from the whole thing. That is what we are (hopefully) seeing and is long overdue. If you thought Peter's sense of guilt and responsibility were heavy before, just wait until the truth is known.
    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Wasn't that the whole reason why Peter (and MJ) made the deal in the first place?
    Are you seriously kidding me?!! Get away with it? The deal only gave Spider-Man a way to escape from the whole Civil War's thing because he foolishly revealed his identity to the whole world. You really should check back everything that came after OMD, possibly the worst hellish situations Spider-Man ever faced in his life.

    + "New Ways to Die" and "Dark Reign": Norman Osborn, Spider-Man's greatest enemy, take the roles of both Tony Stark and Nick Fury, forcing him to go underground and being worried for his beloved ones more than ever. Every life ruined by Osborn during his Dark Reign was responsibility for Spider-Man, one way or another. Not to mention Mr Negative corrupted Aunt May to become a jerk and treated her nephew as trash. And as if that wasn't enough, there was Jameson becoming mayor and creating the Anti-Spider Squad.

    + "The Gauntlet" and "The Grim Hunt": A plot of the Kravens against all spider that took Spider-Man to the very edge, even considering killing as an option. He feels responsible of Mattie Franklin and Cassandra Webb's deaths.

    + "Spider-Island": One of the hardest challenges of Spider-Man, where everyone has his powers and he has to bring the resposability to the power.

    + "Superior Spider-Man": Peter's mind and body was stolen by Doctor Octopus, practically killing him and dooming him to watch as he made horrible things with his name and identity. Not just as Spider-Man, but as Peter Parker. How do you live with that?

    + "Spider-Verse" and "Spider-Geddon": The war against the Inheritors, Morlun's family. And Morlun is quite probably the most dangerous, relentless and merciless adversary Spider-Man ever faced. Compared to him, all the others (Green Goblin, Carnage or Doctor octopus) are just jokes.

    + "Dead No More: The Clone Conspiracy": Every single person that Peter failed to save (both good guys and bad guys) return from the grave to torture him.

    + "Go Down Swinging": After possibly facing the worst situation possible against Norman Osborn, and almost losing his beloved ones again when Osborn regained the secret of his identity and turned into his most powerful form ever (the Red Goblin), Peter now has to carry another death over his conscious, Flash Thompson.

    + "Absolute Carnage": Not necessary an event directly linked to Spider-Man, but this certainly was a bloody nightmare for him.

    All these stories came after making a deal with Mephisto, which he made to same Aunt May's life; and yet, now it turns out Aunt May is dying for Cancer. And to add more pain to the fact, Peter always sensed in his soul he was missing something that made him happy, his marriage with MJ. You call this "Getting away with it"?

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    All these stories came after making a deal with Mephisto, which he made to same Aunt May's life; and yet, now it turns out Aunt May is dying for Cancer. And to add more pain to the fact, Peter always sensed in his soul he was missing something that made him happy, his marriage with MJ. You call this "Getting away with it"?
    These types of stories would've happened regardless of the deal he made since this is just typical Marvel. You can't really blame OMD or Mephisto for that.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    These types of stories would've happened regardless of the deal he made since this is just typical Marvel. You can't really blame OMD or Mephisto for that.
    Actually, I can. True, SOME of the the stories would have happened regardless of the deal, but some others? No. Let's see:

    + "New Ways to Die" and "Dark Reign": It would have been worse for Peter and MJ, actually. With his secret identity exposed, he would surely had to leave the country to keep MJ safe. And even that MIGHT not be enough to escape from a Norman Osborn who controls the world.

    + "The Gauntlet" and "The Grim Hunt": I think a married Peter could have been trapped into a worst situation in this one, actually. What if Kraven's wife would have wanted to kill the Spider's mate in retaliation for Kraven's death?

    + "Spider-Island": With a married Peter, I believe the Spider-Virus would have actually kept stable in MJ, making her a stable new Spider-Heroine without the consequences of turning into a werespider. After all, in this "reality", she stayed more time close to Peter.

    + "Superior Spider-Man": This could actually have been avoided, because a married MJ would have realized "Peter" was an imposter; she would have called for help from the Avengers and undo the old switcheroo. And without the Superior Spider-Man, many more changes could come later.

    + "Spider-Verse" and "Spider-Geddon": These stories could have happened in a very different way if the Superior Spider-Man actually never happened. Not to mention how a married Peter and a potential Spider-MJ would have been affected by this. In fact, without the Superior Spider-Man, maybe the "Spider-Geddon" never happened, as Otto was never capable of stealing the Inheritors' cloning technology; allowing them to escape.

    + "Dead No More: The Clone Conspiracy": This story might have happened with Ben Reilly going nutso after , but without the Superior Spider-Man and with a married MJ, things would have been different.

    + "Go Down Swinging": No Superior Spider-Man, no Parker Industries, no cure against the Goblin Formula. Therefore, even if Norman Osborn attacked again, it wouldn't be like this story.

    + "Absolute Carnage": It might happen, but maybe without Norman Osborn possessed by Carnage and all the stuff that came from it.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    Actually, I can. True, SOME of the the stories would have happened regardless of the deal, but some others? No. Let's see:

    + "New Ways to Die" and "Dark Reign": It would have been worse for Peter and MJ, actually. With his secret identity exposed, he would surely had to leave the country to keep MJ safe. And even that MIGHT not be enough to escape from a Norman Osborn who controls the world.

    + "The Gauntlet" and "The Grim Hunt": I think a married Peter could have been trapped into a worst situation in this one, actually. What if Kraven's wife would have wanted to kill the Spider's mate in retaliation for Kraven's death?

    + "Spider-Island": With a married Peter, I believe the Spider-Virus would have actually kept stable in MJ, making her a stable new Spider-Heroine without the consequences of turning into a werespider. After all, in this "reality", she stayed more time close to Peter.

    + "Superior Spider-Man": This could actually have been avoided, because a married MJ would have realized "Peter" was an imposter; she would have called for help from the Avengers and undo the old switcheroo. And without the Superior Spider-Man, many more changes could come later.

    + "Spider-Verse" and "Spider-Geddon": These stories could have happened in a very different way if the Superior Spider-Man actually never happened. Not to mention how a married Peter and a potential Spider-MJ would have been affected by this. In fact, without the Superior Spider-Man, maybe the "Spider-Geddon" never happened, as Otto was never capable of stealing the Inheritors' cloning technology; allowing them to escape.

    + "Dead No More: The Clone Conspiracy": This story might have happened with Ben Reilly going nutso after , but without the Superior Spider-Man and with a married MJ, things would have been different.

    + "Go Down Swinging": No Superior Spider-Man, no Parker Industries, no cure against the Goblin Formula. Therefore, even if Norman Osborn attacked again, it wouldn't be like this story.

    + "Absolute Carnage": It might happen, but maybe without Norman Osborn possessed by Carnage and all the stuff that came from it.
    I feel like a lot of this is reaching.
    For Superior, Slott would have either had MJ play dumb, have a side plot where she has to work out what is wrong with Peter or put her on the bus. In fact, the whole MJ mystery idea actually sounds like it would have been a lot of fun. But again, there would have been other ways for Slott to reach an end goal.

    Superior doesn’t have any direct correlation with OMD, in fact none of them do.

    A story which would would have been a direct effect is something along the lines of Aunt May is in a state where she should be dead. Basically stating that the deal keeps her alive no matter what and Peter’s actions of trying to save her and has led her to be in suffering. But that’s pretty dark for a Spider-man tale.

    The closest we get to a direct OMD plot is the current Last Remains, and even then, we have to see how that plays out.

  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    Are you seriously kidding me?!! Get away with it? The deal only gave Spider-Man a way to escape from the whole Civil War's thing because he foolishly revealed his identity to the whole world. You really should check back everything that came after OMD, possibly the worst hellish situations Spider-Man ever faced in his life.

    + "New Ways to Die" and "Dark Reign": Norman Osborn, Spider-Man's greatest enemy, take the roles of both Tony Stark and Nick Fury, forcing him to go underground and being worried for his beloved ones more than ever. Every life ruined by Osborn during his Dark Reign was responsibility for Spider-Man, one way or another. Not to mention Mr Negative corrupted Aunt May to become a jerk and treated her nephew as trash. And as if that wasn't enough, there was Jameson becoming mayor and creating the Anti-Spider Squad.

    + "The Gauntlet" and "The Grim Hunt": A plot of the Kravens against all spider that took Spider-Man to the very edge, even considering killing as an option. He feels responsible of Mattie Franklin and Cassandra Webb's deaths.

    + "Spider-Island": One of the hardest challenges of Spider-Man, where everyone has his powers and he has to bring the resposability to the power.

    + "Superior Spider-Man": Peter's mind and body was stolen by Doctor Octopus, practically killing him and dooming him to watch as he made horrible things with his name and identity. Not just as Spider-Man, but as Peter Parker. How do you live with that?

    + "Spider-Verse" and "Spider-Geddon": The war against the Inheritors, Morlun's family. And Morlun is quite probably the most dangerous, relentless and merciless adversary Spider-Man ever faced. Compared to him, all the others (Green Goblin, Carnage or Doctor octopus) are just jokes.

    + "Dead No More: The Clone Conspiracy": Every single person that Peter failed to save (both good guys and bad guys) return from the grave to torture him.

    + "Go Down Swinging": After possibly facing the worst situation possible against Norman Osborn, and almost losing his beloved ones again when Osborn regained the secret of his identity and turned into his most powerful form ever (the Red Goblin), Peter now has to carry another death over his conscious, Flash Thompson.

    + "Absolute Carnage": Not necessary an event directly linked to Spider-Man, but this certainly was a bloody nightmare for him.

    All these stories came after making a deal with Mephisto, which he made to same Aunt May's life; and yet, now it turns out Aunt May is dying for Cancer. And to add more pain to the fact, Peter always sensed in his soul he was missing something that made him happy, his marriage with MJ. You call this "Getting away with it"?
    I was there. I read all of that and have been reading Spidey constantly for 30 plus years. Most of those weren't even a direct result of OMD. You likely could have told those stories regardless.

    When I say Peter got away with it, I am talking about the direct fallout from OMD. Mephisto gives you something, but it isn't what you expect. In Johnny Blaze's case, Mephisto saved Crash Simpson from cancer in exchange for Johnny's soul. All well and good. But then Crash ended up dying weeks later and it is later revealed Mephisto knew this was going to happen. He just conveniently influenced Johnny to reach out to him. It is basically entrapment. You think you win, but you ultimately end up losing.

    In Peter's case, Mephisto said he was only interested in the marriage. Then, MJ made the further stipulation that Mephisto was to leave him alone afterwards. Which he has done. However OMD affected other people in Peter's life such as conveniently bringing Harry back to life. If you realized that you were affected by the actions of someone else, wouldn't you be a bit pissed? It is the same over at DC with Barry Allen and Flashpoint (Which the CW show explored further with other characters being disgusted at Barry for the changes it caused in their lives).

    That is my point.

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