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  1. #76
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    I do wonder how much Quesada had influence on media and cartoons to adapt a younger version of the character.
    Joe Quesada after he stepped down as EIC became Chief Creative Officer, per wikipedia, tasked to "ensure that all portrayals of Marvel's characters and stories remain true to the essence of Marvel history." In the case of the cartoons, he was producer on the USM trash, and the current Marvel's Spider-Man cartoon. In the Marvel's Spider-Man cartoon, Quesada voices a character of an avuncular coffee-shop owner...which is the first time any editor other than Stan Lee has promoted himself that way. So yeah, Quesada does airs of wanting to promote himself as a brand alongside Spider-Man and he does have and has exercised a say on Spider-Man.

    The ideology of a young Spider-Man was launched by Bill Jemas former President of Marvel (and commissioner and co-plotter of the first arc of Ultimate Spider-Man). Jemas and then Quesada have obviously promoted people at different parts of Marvel and whenever producers and others have talks with Marvel their say and opinion is going to reach the ears of creators like movie producers, game producers and so on, rather than fans like us. That's how power works. Quesada is a successful EIC, which is not to say of course that he's a good EIC (I rank him as mediocre on the whole). One can be successful without being good at one's job...so that gives him a sense of seniority and so on. And from what I've read on a personal level, he's pretty affable on the whole, so it can be hard to challenge his ideas or oppose him outright.

    Historically Marvel EICs get fired or crash and burn somehow, that happened to every editor aside from Stan Lee until Quesada. That brought a lot of instability to Marvel in some respects but it also meant that there wasn't any central figure to enforce a common ideology or viewpoint, a single perspective that defined what Marvel Comics should be and so on. Quesada though got promoted and the result of that is that EIC after Quesada don't have any real power or say. It's a fairly neuteured position, for better and for worse. And obviously thanks to Quesada's promotion, interns and other assistants get ahead by agreeing with him or enforcing his views. By that I am not saying Quesada practises cronyism that's just how corporate structures work. If you come there and you want to get ahead you agree with the boss without him asking, before him asking.

    So what is the point in the mandate if they two are so far apart anyway?
    Fundamentally, outside media doesn't matter zilch. Ultimately the movies, the cartoons, the games, the comics...none of them matters in terms of the stuff that truly generates buckets of cash for Spider-Man, and does the actual job of introducing Spider-Man to new audiences.

    Remember the real introduction for Spider-Man is merchandise. Toys, pajamas, stickers, stationery, bedspreads and so on. Every day new babies are born. And each baby's parents are gonna decorate the cribs with Spider-Man logos, Spider-Man stuff here and there. These little tots when they are 1 years or 2 years old will know and recognize Spider-Man's costume and logo long before they can speak and understand...everyone knows Spider-Man long before they find out he's Peter Parker or what age the character is.

    The age of the character is fundamentally irrelevant to the appeal of Spider-Man. In terms of comics...the highest period of sales was the era of the marriage from Michelinie-MacFarlane all the way to Maximum Carnage. Sales dipped when they tried to get rid of the marriage during the Clone Saga (and before everyone talks about how successful the early issues were, the important thing is that sales dropped when they said Ben was the real deal, and the Peter who readers thought was Peter for 20 years, i.e. the one who got married, was the clone).

    The fact is in terms of eyeballs, none of BND and Slott's run will match that period, and they will never catch up.

  2. #77
    Incredible Member RD155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    He was heavily involved in the cartoons and not that involved in the Sony projects. That's probably why ITSV and the video games feature an older Spider-Man.

    The comics kinda have to feature a Spider-Man out of high school simply due to the nature of 616 time, but post-OMD Spidey is still played up as a relatively young guy still trying to find himself (even though the execution isn't always good). That's still consistent with the "represents youth" thing.

    MCU Spider-Man is more complicated. I do think Quesada kinda paved the way for him, but a direct cause or influence over Holland's Spider-Man? That I don't think he is. I attribute MCU Spider-Man being the way he is more to bad timing, corporate politics, and writers who don't get Spider-Man (including the Russos, sadly).

    Also, Spider-Man absolutely represents youth. It just doesn't mean what Quesada thinks it means.
    This. You literally nailed it with this post.

    I’ve always had an issue with the representation of Spider-Man in the MCU. That’s not indicative in the slightest of Tom Holland. It’s almost impossible to dislike the work he does and the effort he puts in. My issue is with the material he’s presented and the fact that the writers don’t yet seem to comprehend the character. I’m just tired of the character being portrayed as nothing more then a court jester at times.

    Even Spencer’s interpretation to a slight degree exhibits this inexperienced superhero vibe to it. Granted I’m not sure if that’s completely his fault because it’s evident that editorial does push for that with the character because that’s what they view as “youth”. I want Spider-Man to be portrayed as an experienced hero who’s combination of abilities make him a deadly threat....Not someone who’s constantly wide eyed in every situation.

    Like you said....Spider-Man most definitely represents “youth”. However it’s clear that Quesadas interpretation of youth is just completely off base and not faithful to the character at all. You don’t need to constantly strip layers away from Spider-Man to make him appeal to a younger audience. The character by nature will always appeal to a youthful audience. It doesn’t need to be fabricated or forced. The problem now is by trying so hard to get him “younger” you are essentially alienating the older comic fan, who make up the larger portion of your comic fanbase.
    Last edited by RD155; 10-23-2020 at 09:44 AM.

  3. #78
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD155 View Post
    This. You literally nailed it with this post.

    I’ve always had an issue with the representation of Spider-Man in the MCU. That’s not indicative in the slightest of Tom Holland. It’s almost impossible to dislike the work he does and the effort he puts in. My issue is with the material he’s presented and the fact that the writers don’t yet seem to comprehend the character. I’m just tired of the character being portrayed as nothing more then a court jester at times.

    Even Spencer’s interpretation to a slight degree exhibits this inexperienced superhero vibe to it. Granted I’m not sure if that’s completely his fault because it’s evident that editorial does push for that with the character because that’s what they view as “youth”. I want Spider-Man to be portrayed as an experienced hero who’s combination of abilities make him a deadly threat....Not someone who’s constantly wide eyed in every situation.

    Like you said....Spider-Man most definitely represents “youth”. However it’s clear that Quesadas interpretation of youth is just completely off base and not faithful to the character at all. You don’t need to constantly strip layers away from Spider-Man to make him appeal to a younger audience. The character by nature will always appeal to a youthful audience. It doesn’t need to be fabricated or forced. The problem now is by trying so hard to get him “younger” you are essentially alienating the older comic fan, who make up the larger portion of your comic fanbase.
    I think Tom Holland is a phenomenal actor, I'm just not convinced he has a good Spider-Man voice. I guess it doesn't help that the writing hardly writes him as Spider-Man when he's in the suit.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD155 View Post
    Like you said....Spider-Man most definitely represents “youth”. However it’s clear that Quesadas interpretation of youth is just completely off base and not faithful to the character at all. You don’t need to constantly strip layers away from Spider-Man to make him appeal to a younger audience. The character by nature will always appeal to a youthful audience. It doesn’t need to be fabricated or forced. The problem now is by trying so hard to get him “younger” you are essentially alienating the older comic fan, who make up the larger portion of your comic fanbase.
    Thank you. I do get a bit annoyed when fans deny the reality that Spider-Man represents youth just because Quesada said it. I get that Quesada misinterprets and exploits the idea of Spider-Man representing youth, but that doesn't mean the statement "Spider-Man represents youth" is incorrect.

    Spider-Man represents youth in the sense that he will never outgrow or abandon the positive qualities we associate with childhood. He matures but he will never really get old, much like how Stan Lee never "really" got old until he was too sick to do anything.

  5. #80
    Mighty Member Vortex85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Thank you. I do get a bit annoyed when fans deny the reality that Spider-Man represents youth just because Quesada said it. I get that Quesada misinterprets and exploits the idea of Spider-Man representing youth, but that doesn't mean the statement "Spider-Man represents youth" is incorrect.

    Spider-Man represents youth in the sense that he will never outgrow or abandon the positive qualities we associate with childhood. He matures but he will never really get old, much like how Stan Lee never "really" got old until he was too sick to do anything.
    That is a very different idea than Quesada had in mind when he said it though. Although before Quesada said it, no one was really saying that. If anything early Spider-Man was about a youthful character forced into adult responsibilities too early. Peter had to be the man of the house, provide for his Aunt by getting a job, forced to live a world of adults fighting adult villain's and taking on adult problems while still in his teens. Honestly I still don't agree with the statement because of the intent. However, if you just mean that he sees the best in people and is childlike in his optimistic belief that he can make the world a better place, then I can agree with that.

    I think a character like Goku, while older and married, much more represents the child-like mindset and representation of youth than Peter Parker does.
    Last edited by Vortex85; 10-23-2020 at 10:34 AM.

  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    Thank you. I do get a bit annoyed when fans deny the reality that Spider-Man represents youth just because Quesada said it. I get that Quesada misinterprets and exploits the idea of Spider-Man representing youth, but that doesn't mean the statement "Spider-Man represents youth" is incorrect.

    Spider-Man represents youth in the sense that he will never outgrow or abandon the positive qualities we associate with childhood. He matures but he will never really get old, much like how Stan Lee never "really" got old until he was too sick to do anything.
    I still think that he is more about power and responsability (on the nose i know, but that was always the strongest theme for me) that anything related to youth. But if he represents that, i definetly prefer your interpretation by miles.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    That is a very different idea than Quesada had in mind when he said it though. Although before Quesada said it, no one was really saying that. If anything early Spider-Man was about a youthful character forced into adult responsibilities too early. Peter had to be the man of the house, provide for his Aunt by getting a job, forced to live a world of adults fighting adult villain's and taking on adult problems while still in his teens. Honestly I still don't agree with the statement because of the intent. However, if you just mean that he sees the best in people and is childlike in his optimistic belief that he can make the world a better place, then I can agree with that.

    I think a character like Goku, while older and married, much more represents the child-like mindset and representation of youth than Peter Parker does.
    I think early Spider-Man was still very much about youth (it wasn't the only thing he is about, though - I think this distinction is important). In the Lee/Ditko run, Spider-Man is just as much of an escape from reality for Peter as it is him being responsible. It was his way of challenging his sense of fun and his childlike delinquency into doing something responsible. There are constant panels where he talks about how much he enjoys being Spider-Man and where he takes time out of his day to do juvenile things like web Jameson to his seat and to send him troll poems.

    Fast-forward to his adult years and Spider-Man is still very much about youth (again, not the only thing he is about - I think people have this binary mindset that characters can't be about multiple things at once). He was able to connect with Tim the way he did because he never lost touch with his inner child. The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man wouldn't work otherwise. Then in the JMS era, we once again see Peter connect with kids better than literally any other superhero in comics including Clark Kent. Not to mention that JMS' Spider-Man was a total goofball - this guy got in arguments with spiders, yelled "I'm the luckiest man alive!" from a rooftop and to a guy's face, went around calling strangers "beautiful" after surviving Morlun and quoted Road Runner at 3 AM. This was never an "adult" guy if we go by the traditional definition of an adult.

    Your comparison to Goku is spot on, and that's probably why Spider-Man is so popular in Japan. Spider-Man in many ways is similar to Shonen protagonists like Goku and Luffy. The difference is that Peter isn't like that all the time. It's only when he is Spider-Man that his more Shonen personality traits come out.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 10-23-2020 at 11:38 AM.

  8. #83
    Mighty Member Vortex85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitou D. Kid View Post
    I think early Spider-Man was still very much about youth. In the Lee/Ditko run, Spider-Man is just as much of an escape from reality for Peter as it is him being responsible. It was his way of challenging his sense of fun and his childlike delinquency into doing something responsible. There are constant panels where he talks about how much he enjoys being Spider-Man and where he takes time out of his day to do juvenile things like web Jameson to his seat and to send him troll poems.

    Fast-forward to his adult years and Spider-Man is still very much about youth. He was able to connect with Tim the way he did because he never lost touch with his inner child. The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man wouldn't work otherwise. Then in the JMS era, we once again see Peter connect with kids better than literally any other superhero in comics including Clark Kent. Not to mention that JMS' Spider-Man was a total goofball - this guy got in arguments with spiders, yelled "I'm the luckiest man alive!" from a rooftop and to a guy's face, went around calling strangers "beautiful" after surviving Morlun and quoted Road Runner at 3 AM. This was not a "mature" guy going by the conventional definition of "mature".

    Your comparison to Goku is spot on, and that's probably why Spider-Man is so popular in Japan. Spider-Man in many ways is similar to Shonen protagonists like Goku and Luffy. The difference is that Peter isn't like that all the time. It's only when he is Spider-Man that his more Shonen personality traits come out.
    I'll meet you in the middle, Peter exhibits those qualities sometimes... depends on the writer, the era, his overall mood. So at times you can say he represents youth, other times not so much. For example I started reading in 1994, and from that period all the way to 96, Peter was going through "I Am the Spider" and the "Clone saga" and had a baby on the way. Most of the time he was stressed out, upset, exhausted of Spider-Man, and wanting to move on a live a happy life with him, his wife, and his new baby. So my first impressions of reading the character for my first few years as a fan was very far removed from this representation of youth that gets exhibited a lot these days when he is Spider-Man.

  9. #84
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    They reset to #1 2 or 3 times when Slott wrote the book. So it doesn't seem to be tied directly to a new creative team coming in. They do that for shorter runs, but longer runs seem to be able to get into #1's before create team shifts, and maybe tied to more character direction shifts.
    The first time was after Peter Parker's grand return in the finale of Superior Spider-Man, following which the Amazing Spider-Man branding was restored with a new #1, and the second time was after Jonathan Hickman's Secret Wars, with the launch of All-New, All-Different Marvel, at which point every Marvel title --- not just Spider-Man --- was reset to #1.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  10. #85
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Yeah, it didn't matter how long ago the previous #1 was. Several books had two #1s in the same year, with the same creative team. Personally, I think anything that retained the same writer shouldn't have relaunched - that means ASM, Squirrel Girl, Spider-Woman, Silk, Spider-Gwen, Thor, and Inhumans.
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  11. #86
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Yeah, it didn't matter how long ago the previous #1 was. Several books had two #1s in the same year, with the same creative team. Personally, I think anything that retained the same writer shouldn't have relaunched - that means ASM, Squirrel Girl, Spider-Woman, Silk, Spider-Gwen, Thor, and Inhumans.
    Don't forget Spider-Man 2099.
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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It's not quite the same thing.

    DC practises Alternate Universe rules. What that means is there isn't a single continuity going directly to the character's first appearance that you have with Marvel? Superman exists in different versions rather than a single one. The original Superman by Siegel and Shuster, followed by Silver Age Superman, followed by Post-Crisis Superman, followed by New 52 Superman. All of these are different versions of the character.

    Post-Crisis Superman got married but he never had his marriage erased. New 52 happened and his AU was pocketed away. When New 52 became a disaster, they simply brought him back.

    In the case of Marvel, they have a single continuity system, so they had to remove the marriage of the existing character. If Spider-Man were DC, what DC would do is replace 616 Married Spider-Man with Ultimate Spider-Man and make Ultimate the default. That's what they would have done.
    Well, the way DC has it set up at the moment, the Golden Age stuff until now is, technically, the same continuity. It just keeps getting altered by cosmic/reality alternating events. Superman, for example, keeps being moved forward it time. So, instead of arriving in the circa 1920's, it gets pushed forward to the Silver Age. The Silver Age gets impacted to become the post-COIE.

    It is headache inducing lol. DC has basically said, from Doomsday Clock onward, everything happened. It all matters! Every single comic leads to now!

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Yeah, it didn't matter how long ago the previous #1 was. Several books had two #1s in the same year, with the same creative team. Personally, I think anything that retained the same writer shouldn't have relaunched - that means ASM, Squirrel Girl, Spider-Woman, Silk, Spider-Gwen, Thor, and Inhumans.
    This.

    It annoys me when they relaunch with the exact creative teams. Okay, I get why they did it with Thor: GOT to Thor (with Jane in the lead) and Superior back to Amazing. The rest? Waid got two #1's on Daredevil (the only change Matt being in San Francisco again), two #1's with Hulk, and another two with Doc Strange. I can understand the latter two being attributed to sales, but Daredevil was selling/holding steady.

  14. #89
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    I have a Feeling its the end of OMD Lets state the facts,Kindred ,Doctor strange and Mepnisto ,Mary Jane.All the hints with Spider-man and Deadpool last year also it says End of a Era that could mean OMD is reversed

  15. #90
    Incredible Member RD155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fin5 View Post
    I have a Feeling its the end of OMD Lets state the facts,Kindred ,Doctor strange and Mepnisto ,Mary Jane.All the hints with Spider-man and Deadpool last year also it says End of a Era that could mean OMD is reversed
    I’m not sure if OMD will be reversed. I think what most of us want is it for it to at least be addressed and maybe overcome. The damage in a sense as already been done by Marvel over the years. You cant suddenly snap your fingers and just have everything go back to what it was. You can however have this story show the consequences of doing what Peter did, show that karma always come back around, your sins always catch up to you and have a story about redemption where Peter/MJ attempt to atone and make things right in some way.

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