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  1. #1
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Default Which Bat-Family Villains do you want reformed or not?

    Since it feels like a lot of them are getting reformed these days, lets discuss.

    Clayface is interesting as reformed, but keep him out of the Bat-Family. I wonder what he's been up to with Dr Oktober (last time I saw him on panel he left with her).
    Killer-Croc I'd say keep reformed. Would like to see him back in a team again.
    Harley I don't care if she's good or bad (not that they'd ever make her bad again now), but I don't like her in the Bat-Family.
    Two-Face I'm indifferent about.
    Alice I prefer as a villain, the 'Batwoman Supergirl Giant' was a good show of her potential.
    Poison Ivy I prefer as a villain.

    That's all that comes to mind at the moment.

    For the rest, I pretty much prefer most of them to stay as villains. Redemption should be rare and significant IMO: and by significant I mean as close to permanent as you can get in comics.

  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    There are many Clayfaces they can afford to reform one
    Killer Croc definitely already anti-hero anti-villain these days except in one shots
    Harley and Ivy in line with what DC wants so I'm cool
    Let's just get Mr. Freeze out of the way since he's a one trick villain
    Man-Bat family is already Bat family at one or more points before they reboot him again and again
    Holly Robinson shouldn't be evil in the first place
    Willis Todd is on his way... I think? He's a small fry to begin with so it won't take a lot for him to change, it's just gonna take a lot for Jason to accept him
    Kite-Man... is there a reason for him to still be a villain except to be comic relief?

    Since Two-Face is defined by being binary he's the one guy we can afford to go back and forth, as in you can make him genuinely reform and genuinely evil and both works.

    People I'm unsure of:
    Riddler - Detective Riddler is a neat idea, but he's also really narcissistic and compulsive
    Bane - Simone's Secret Six Bane is cute, but King of Santa Prisca's also awesome
    Alice - I don't know her that much
    James Jr. - The tease that he reformed is interesting but he's also cool as a serial killer I'm surprised I haven't heard any serial killer fangirl call him hot
    Cluemaster - wouldn't it be nice if he apologize to Steph, it's not like he's a competent villain, but I also think you can still make a story of his wish to be a great villain

  3. #3

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    Manbat as I dug him as a member of Justice League Dark.

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Man-Bat, because he was a good person who had something happen to him (don't like his wife evil, either).
    Holly, because I think she got character-assassinated in the reboot, and because it's good for Selina to have her own circle/supporting cast that are not primarily Batman's.
    Two-Face is a "maybe" - but if he reforms, let him stay reformed. I know his personality/theme more than most lends itself to flipflopping, but I get so tired of flipflopping.

    If Kate's sister is evil right now, go ahead and reform her because I hate evil siblings as a general rule. But since I'm not following, I don't care that much.

    I prefer Harley and especially Ivy as villains.

    I like Selina starting as a thief (not murderer), then going hero. But I'm okay with her remaining a thief. But no more flip-flopping, please.

    I'd like to erase James Jr. altogether. And I prefer Willis small-time and dead.

    I agree Mr. Freeze is a one-trick pony. Moving him out the way is fine, anyhow you do it to me. I would however, like it using the B:TAS set where he was not trying to save Nora as Mr. Freeze. He though Nora was already dead then, and was out for revenge, not to save her.

    I prefer Talia as a villain (but good to those she likes/loves, while fine with killing those inconvenient to her). Cluemaster definitely a villain, and most others as a villain.

    Can't think of any I care about that I want reformed of the top of my head, anyway. Bad bad guys and good good guys is my general preference.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 10-20-2020 at 08:04 AM.

  5. #5
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Man-Bat, because he was a good person who had something happen to him (don't like his wife evil, either).
    Holly, because I think she got character-assassinated in the reboot, and because it's good for Selina to have her own circle/supporting cast that are not primarily Batman's.
    Two-Face is a "maybe" - but if he reforms, let him stay reformed. I know his personality/theme more than most lends itself to flipflopping, but I get so tired of flipflopping.

    If Kate's sister is evil right now, go ahead and reform her because I hate evil siblings as a general rule. But since I'm not following, I don't care that much.

    I prefer Harley and especially Ivy as villains.

    I like Selina starting as a thief (not murderer), then going hero. But I'm okay with her remaining a thief. But no more flip-flopping, please.

    I'd like to erase James Jr. altogether. And I prefer Willis small-time and dead.

    I agree Mr. Freeze is a one-trick pony. Moving him out the way is fine, anyhow you do it to me. I would however, like it using the B:TAS set where he was not trying to save Nora as Mr. Freeze. He though Nora was already dead then, and was out for revenge, not to save her.

    I prefer Talia as a villain (but good to those she likes/loves, while fine with killing those inconvenient to her). Cluemaster definitely a villain, and most others as a villain.

    Can't think of any I care about that I want reformed of the top of my head, anyway. Bad bad guys and good good guys is my general preference.
    James Jr. because of the evil sibling thing? ^^

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    James Jr. because of the evil sibling thing? ^^
    Partially, yes. And partially because he basically doesn't exist in the narrative (even after his existence was established he was never [i]there[i], even in characters' thoughts) for so long before just popping up full-grown and evil. Now, to be fair, Barbara similarly popped up grown. But it was longer ago (s she's always existed to me), and we hadn't seen the same degree of Gordon's personal life then.

  7. #7
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Erase James Jr. for the useless waste of space he is and just bring back Anthony if we have to have an older brother for Babs.

    For the reformed villains, I'd like them to reform Harvey and actually let it stick until the next reboot/version. The rest can stay villains, but I also wouldn't want them to be OTT evil either. Like Ivy I prefer as a villain, but one capable of doing things like taking care of children occasionally like she did in NML. "Villains" doesn't have to mean one thing.

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Erase James Jr. for the useless waste of space he is and just bring back Anthony if we have to have an older brother for Babs.
    Oh, I have a soft spot for Tony. He may not have any place in main continuity, but it'd be fun to see him (not evil, of course) in an elseworlds or animated version.

  9. #9
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Man-Bat - I like Man-Bat on JL: Dark, so he can stay reformed

    Clayface - Tynion's redemption of Clayface was so good, and so well done, I feel it would be an injustice to make him bad again. at least let that iteration of Clayface stay reformed.

    Harley Quinn & Poison Ivy (or Queen Ivy now?)- I prefer Harley as an anti-villain, still villainous but she's fun and does have a conscience from time to time. I can take Ivy being a good guy or a bad guy, but I would probably lean more toward anti-hero because her environmentalism feels more altruistic than Ra's, who feels more like he's using it as a justification for his evil. I think if I had to chose, I would have her and Harley together as a morally ambiguous pair, with Ivy being somewhat more moral than Harley; i pretty much described the Harley Quinn show tbh.

    Two-face - I like him as a villain, I get the dualistic nature of his character makes the flip-flopping make sense but I prefer they don't lean on that too much. he can have a good guy moment from time to time (I actually like those stories) but I would much prefer they happen few and far between.

    Mister Freeze - I liked the sympathetic origin but I hate when people try to go too far and make him redeemable. let him stay a sympathetic villain.

    Killer Croc - I think he's more fun as just this nice guy who did some time but has sorta mellowed out, just existing in the DC universe. I don't think he brings much to the table as villain, so he can stay reformed.

    Riddler, Penguin, Bane, all the other miscellaneous guys, they aren't that important or interesting enough outside their original premises to justify the flip.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 10-20-2020 at 11:20 AM.
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  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Kirk Langstrom, when not fully beast, is a good guy. So him in Justice League Dark is fine by me. Just a guy dealt a bad hand (though erase his wife being evil, and have her as supportive).

    Ivy and Harley... Ivy I could see being "gray" at times, depending on the situation, but overall, I prefer her as a villain. Harley, villain. The only remorse she's ever shown was sticking with "Mistah Jay" so long. Not of being a psycho killer with him.

    Selena, her being a "Robin Hood" kind of character works. Stealing from the corrupt rich and helping the downtrodden with the valuables suits her. And having Holly there too.

    Killer Croc is more interesting now then he has been as a one note evil beast guy. Now, while certainly not perfect, does have morals and standards. Like how he became Roy's sponsor in rehab and what not.

    Penguin, keep him as a kind of "last of the old guard" kind of deal. Where it was the old mafia families and what not, with Cobblepot working for himself, but doing business with everyone.

    Freeze, while his pain is sympathetic, cannot be excused for his other crimes. Cold, ruthless, but logical at the same time. Like he'd understand why he would be in prison and what not.

    Joker. Nope. But him on death row.

    Two-Face, while he also had a solid origin story, is past the point of redemption. He's gotten to the point where one half of him is hot-headed and bloodthirsty while the other half is cold-blooded with no remorse for his actions.

    Clayface... Depends. The actor one, I liked his interactions with Cass Cain. He got to act again for someone who appreciated him, and also helped Cass improve her speech and vocabulary. So, reform him.

  11. #11
    Amazing Member Aramis's Avatar
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    I like Kirk, Harley and Ivy as heroes (or anti-heroes). Clayface and Croc have also had their moments of light and they make sense. Same with Freeze, although this one's always been a bit weird to me. How is there NOT a cure for Nora's disease in a world like this?

    Riddler, Bane, Penguin, Two-Face and Joker should remain villains forever.

  12. #12
    Amazing Member Aramis's Avatar
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    Double post, please delete.

  13. #13
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    Sadly, reformation is not really an option for Bat-Foes; there will always be some writer who wants that antagonist for this Batman story.

    Now, becoming Anti-heroes is a possibility for several villains and villainess. I don't see heroine or hero as viable.

  14. #14
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Harley Quinn & Poison Ivy (or Queen Ivy now?)- I prefer Harley as an anti-villain, still villainous but she's fun and does have a conscience from time to time. I can take Ivy being a good guy or a bad guy, but I would probably lean more toward anti-hero because her environmentalism feels more altruistic than Ra's, who feels more like he's using it as a justification for his evil. I think if I had to chose, I would have her and Harley together as a morally ambiguous pair, with Ivy being somewhat more moral than Harley; i pretty much described the Harley Quinn show tbh.
    I don't think Ivy and Ra's are all that different in terms of their methodology. They seem fine making necessary sacrifices for the sake of the environment even if that means committing horrific acts, unless we're assuming current Ivy still hasn't killed anyone like Tom King believes, but I don't.

    I think between the two Ivy has more common sense than Harley, rather than being more moral.

  15. #15
    Spectacular Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Harley Quinn & Poison Ivy (or Queen Ivy now?)- I prefer Harley as an anti-villain, still villainous but she's fun and does have a conscience from time to time. I can take Ivy being a good guy or a bad guy, but I would probably lean more toward anti-hero because her environmentalism feels more altruistic than Ra's, who feels more like he's using it as a justification for his evil. I think if I had to chose, I would have her and Harley together as a morally ambiguous pair, with Ivy being somewhat more moral than Harley; i pretty much described the Harley Quinn show tbh.
    The difference between Ivy and Harley is that Harley was a psychopathic murderer who was willing to commit any kind of atrocity to please Mistah Jay. Ivy is a sadistic killler who could commit mass genocide on a bad day or when offered a chance to do so by someone. I just dont like it when Harley is written as the one person who can redeem Ivy. Ivy seems to be capable of greater evil but for a seemingly more noble cause from her perspective while Harley kills or used to kill for a comepletely selfish reason.
    Last edited by prepmaster; 10-20-2020 at 05:46 PM.

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