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  1. #76
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimz View Post
    I hope he dies... Mainly because I'd find it funny.

    Also, still with this crap about Sue being a Karen? She ain't even done nothing this issue and last issue she was upset that e got his ear pieced behind her back. Most parents would be upset at that, mine was too. It's not some big metaphor, it's just an attempt to mirror teenage rebellion and how parents deal with it. Some of you are unnecessarily inserting the mutant subtext where it doesn't belong.
    In the FF book their reactions to Franklin's actions have nothing to do with being a mutant and everything to do with him being a rebellious teen going through a phase. Take away the mutant aspect and everything would play out exactly the same. It would be the same actions with the same responses which shows this is a teen coming of age story/parenting a rebellious teenager. Not a story about a teen needing to escape bigoted parents or anything like that.
    Yeah, I didn't get that one. Either the people complaining never had a mummy or they came out the womb as an adult.

    As I mentioned in other occasions when this comes up, Slott is showing that Franklin thinks people only want him around because of his powers and that he'll be unwanted now especially since he has no other talents compared to the other kids which results in his acting out.
    "Cable was right!"

  2. #77
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    And people wonder why the Runaways fans dread interactions with the X-Men books

  3. #78
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Didn't they retcon Molly's origin anyway?
    "Cable was right!"

  4. #79
    Mighty Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Removed...
    Last edited by zinderel; 10-28-2020 at 12:56 PM.

  5. #80
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    I like how in the end you want to blame Slott when the problems you brought up were Chip Zdarsky's doing.
    "Cable was right!"

  6. #81
    Mighty Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Removed...
    Last edited by zinderel; 10-28-2020 at 12:56 PM.

  7. #82
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
    Johnny treated him weird because he had posters of mutant pop stars on his wall.
    Johnny Storm?
    He who has worked with mutants on numerous occasions and being led by Storm when Reed asked Storm and T'Challa to take over for a bit? He who as stuck his pee-pee in alien hoo-haas is "weirding out" about mutant pop stars? That Johnny Storm?
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  8. #83
    X-Cultist nx01a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    Except that it has everything to do with mutants, because Franklin is a mutant and the music he listened to was mutant. Replace ‘mutant music’ with ‘black music’, or ‘Mexican music’, or ‘queer music’ and you have Johnny being VERY uncomfortable and wierd around a kid expressing and exploring his culture, and coming off really badly. .
    Look. I’m not trying to say that the F4 are suddenly bigots. Not at all. I’m saying that they are being written as a stereotypical white, suburban elite family dealing with their son coming out. And not dealing well. From genetic tampering with, and scientific experimentation on Franklin without his consent, to FREAKING OUT and attacking former allies as ‘freakin, ‘weirdos’, and kidnappers based SOLELY on Sue’s mother bear prejudices, to treating Franklin’s interest in his culture as a ‘phase’, to treating his interests as something to be ‘uncomfortable with’.
    No one cares about Sue being a mom about Franklin getting his ear pierced. That’s perfectly normal. That isn’t ‘Karening’. What IS Karening is how she acted for most of the F4/X crossover. Freaking out that Franklin - who, remember, is dealing with something pretty traumatic - is exploring his mutant ‘side’, and then leaping STRAIGHT to ‘those freaks stole my babies!!!!’ when Franklin and Valeria run away (after learning that Reed EXPERIMENTED ON ABD MODIFIED FRANKLIN’S DNA WITHOUT CONSENT!!!). It was Sue leaping to conclusions and demanding to speak to the manager of Krakoa about something she was COMPLETELY wrong about. It was her and the other ADULTS assaulting the X-Men when they didn’t like the answer they got.
    What people have an issue with is the way his family is reacting to his embracing his mutanthood. I’m NOT saying it’s intentional, because I get that a cishet white writer isn’t always gonna be all up on how it feels to be othered by loved ones this way. It’s just deeply troubling to watch a family that is often touted as the First Family of Marvel and the paragon of heroism in the MU neglect and mistreat Franklin SOLELY because they don’t ‘understand‘ why he’s suddenly so different than the good little boy he used to be. He’s a teenager in a family that, like all families, isn’t superprepared to deal with a teenager. He’s a mutant in a world that hates and fears mutants. And his own family casually levels slurs against his people, treats mutants like something inherently ‘unsettling’ (despite decades working together WITH mutants and being the non-X team most positively associated with them), and genetically altered him against his will to strip away aspects of what makes him special. Or at least, to ‘allow’ him to ‘hide’ his mutantdom so he can fit in with other, ‘respectable’ sorts like Uncle Johnny or the Avengers...
    I’m not surprised that not everyone catches this stuff, or thinks about how it comes across. Not everyone has had their family reject them for being queer. Not everyone understands what it’s like to be told by loved ones that they accept you, only to hear them talk about ‘f*gs’ when they think you can’t hear them (or worse, have them use those terms in front of you to describe someone who is ‘too’ queer. Not everyone has had a family member walk in and make a face because they realize you’re listening to music by RuPaul or Alaska or Willam. Not everyone has faced down ‘reparative therapy’. And maybe that’s the point Slott is making. But maybe ALSO, he is unaware how all this looks to people who have been where Franklin is, with a family like his, who loves him...but doesn’t really love his ‘otherness’ enough to bother trying to understand it or respect it.
    You don’t have to agree. But understand that sometimes, people see things you don’t, and experience things in ways that are different from how you do. I read this issue twice. The first time, I enjoyed the events of meeting Cormorant and Helmsman, the fights were epic, and the character beats were on point. (Not to mention the gorgeous art.) But then I hit that last panel of Franklin. And I felt a pit in my stomach. I reread the issue to focus on Franklin’s arc, and all I could see was a child neglected, misunderstood, and (hopefully unintentionally) mistreated by his loved ones because of his otherness. And that’s not what I want to see in a F4 comic...
    Are the FF supposed to immediately understand what Franklin is going through? I think they love him but rightly express their unease with him being drawn to a society heavily influenced by mass murderers. The real world analogy unfortunately breaks down.

    And don't forget that Franklin's new chosen family turned their back on him the instant his powers disappeared. Look at that as mirroring the way the queer community can ignore or mistreat the minorities within itself: bisexuals, non-whites, trans individuals... and how those neglected or rejected individuals feel about it. Of course, that might just be the Krakoan gate. Next issue will probably feature Franklin responding to being treated as a depowered mutant by Krakoa. Of course, Sue will get a nosebleed when someone mentions the Crucible as she rightly should since it involves Apocalypse brutally murdering her child.

    I can just hear Willam singing, "This boy is depowered!"
    Last edited by nx01a; 10-27-2020 at 10:50 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The General, JLA #38
    'Why?' Just to see the disappointment on your corn-fed, gee-whiz face, Superman. And because a great dark voice on the edge of nothing spoke to me and said you all had to die. There is no 'Why?'

  9. #84
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    Who is the current writer? Is it not Slott? I know he didn’t write F4/X. But he DID pick up the threads it laid down.

    Ultimately, whatever Zdarsky did (the Karening of Sue, the beginning of this whole ‘othering’ arc) in the crossover, Slott is the one in charge of where the story goes. And he chose to have Franklin’s family still reacting to Franklin’s exploration of his culture as something unsettling and strange, and chose to have an alien appear and beat the minority out of an uppity teenager who has the temerity to be exploring his identity...and chose to show his family neglecting and misunderstanding him, and the trauma he is CLEARLY going through.
    Slott hasn't picked up on any of Zdarsky's plot points. He's only just brought in the Sue worked for SHIELD plot.
    Logan dropped what he was doing to help the kids and in the Iceman story they accept him so he can learn to use his powers better.

    "He chose to have Franklin's family react to his exploration of his culture as something strange and unsettling"

    Well that never happened unless you're still grasping at straws with Sue's reaction to the earrings and Johnny's reaction when he enters his room in #25. How have Ben, Reed, Alicia and Valeria reacted?

    "An alien beat the minority out of him"

    Well that never happened either since the book implies him using his powers to resurrect everyone caused his power problems and him trying to save people again was the last straw.

    "chose to show his family neglecting him and misunderstanding him"
    However before they left for space in Point of Origin attempts had been made by various family members to connect with him and he always reverts when the issue comes up again.
    "Cable was right!"

  10. #85
    Incredible Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinderel View Post
    Except that it has everything to do with mutants, because Franklin is a mutant and the music he listened to was mutant. Replace ‘mutant music’ with ‘black music’, or ‘Mexican music’, or ‘queer music’ and you have Johnny being VERY uncomfortable and wierd around a kid expressing and exploring his culture, and coming off really badly. .

    Look. I’m not trying to say that the F4 are suddenly bigots. Not at all. I’m saying that they are being written as a stereotypical white, suburban elite family dealing with their son coming out. And not dealing well. From genetic tampering with, and scientific experimentation on Franklin without his consent, to FREAKING OUT and attacking former allies as ‘freakin, ‘weirdos’, and kidnappers based SOLELY on Sue’s mother bear prejudices, to treating Franklin’s interest in his culture as a ‘phase’, to treating his interests as something to be ‘uncomfortable with’.

    No one cares about Sue being a mom about Franklin getting his ear pierced. That’s perfectly normal. That isn’t ‘Karening’. What IS Karening is how she acted for most of the F4/X crossover. Freaking out that Franklin - who, remember, is dealing with something pretty traumatic - is exploring his mutant ‘side’, and then leaping STRAIGHT to ‘those freaks stole my babies!!!!’ when Franklin and Valeria run away (after learning that Reed EXPERIMENTED ON ABD MODIFIED FRANKLIN’S DNA WITHOUT CONSENT!!!). It was Sue leaping to conclusions and demanding to speak to the manager of Krakoa about something she was COMPLETELY wrong about. It was her and the other ADULTS assaulting the X-Men when they didn’t like the answer they got.

    What people have an issue with is the way his family is reacting to his embracing his mutanthood. I’m NOT saying it’s intentional, because I get that a cishet white writer isn’t always gonna be all up on how it feels to be othered by loved ones this way. It’s just deeply troubling to watch a family that is often touted as the First Family of Marvel and the paragon of heroism in the MU neglect and mistreat Franklin SOLELY because they don’t ‘understand‘ why he’s suddenly so different than the good little boy he used to be. He’s a teenager in a family that, like all families, isn’t superprepared to deal with a teenager. He’s a mutant in a world that hates and fears mutants. And his own family casually levels slurs against his people, treats mutants like something inherently ‘unsettling’ (despite decades working together WITH mutants and being the non-X team most positively associated with them), and genetically altered him against his will to strip away aspects of what makes him special. Or at least, to ‘allow’ him to ‘hide’ his mutantdom so he can fit in with other, ‘respectable’ sorts like Uncle Johnny or the Avengers...

    I’m not surprised that not everyone catches this stuff, or thinks about how it comes across. Not everyone has had their family reject them for being queer. Not everyone understands what it’s like to be told by loved ones that they accept you, only to hear them talk about ‘f*gs’ when they think you can’t hear them (or worse, have them use those terms in front of you to describe someone who is ‘too’ queer. Not everyone has had a family member walk in and make a face because they realize you’re listening to music by RuPaul or Alaska or Willam. Not everyone has faced down ‘reparative therapy’. And maybe that’s the point Slott is making. But maybe ALSO, he is unaware how all this looks to people who have been where Franklin is, with a family like his, who loves him...but doesn’t really love his ‘otherness’ enough to bother trying to understand it or respect it.

    You don’t have to agree. But understand that sometimes, people see things you don’t, and experience things in ways that are different from how you do. I read this issue twice. The first time, I enjoyed the events of meeting Cormorant and Helmsman, the fights were epic, and the character beats were on point. (Not to mention the gorgeous art.) But then I hit that last panel of Franklin. And I felt a pit in my stomach. I reread the issue to focus on Franklin’s arc, and all I could see was a child neglected, misunderstood, and (hopefully unintentionally) mistreated by his loved ones because of his otherness. And that’s not what I want to see in a F4 comic...
    That was a really enjoyable analysis to read! Like someone mentioned below Slott and Zdarsky probably had different ideas going into this story so the overall narrative ends up being more anti-mutant then intended.

  11. #86
    Mighty Member zinderel's Avatar
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    Removed...
    Last edited by zinderel; 10-28-2020 at 12:56 PM.

  12. #87
    X-Cultist nx01a's Avatar
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    I read the first Slott FF arc but wasn't impressed, then I skipped to the recent FF/X miniseries, and now I'm here. Didn't Reed just mask Franklin's mutant gene from registering on X-gene detectors and the Krakoan gates, not actually manipulate his genome? If Reed had actually gone all Sinister on Franklin, then I'd be annoyed.

    The FF have dealt with losing their powers multiple times since the 60s. I think they're so casual about it since they've moved past being defined by turning into silly putty or sandstone. Franklin's grown up with his powers but they're almost always fluctuating wildly, right? He's making universes one minute then effectively powerless the next. Recently he was defined by his abilities for years while recreating the multiverse. I doubt anyone can truly help him deal with the trauma of no longer being the most powerful entity in a creation he recreated. Reed positively beaming about Valeria's purely human genius isn't helping, either, but Reed was never known for his emotional intelligence.

    I doubt the gates are closed because of XoS. There are mutant habitats and interests across the world, especially NY, which still need to access Krakoa via gate.
    Quote Originally Posted by The General, JLA #38
    'Why?' Just to see the disappointment on your corn-fed, gee-whiz face, Superman. And because a great dark voice on the edge of nothing spoke to me and said you all had to die. There is no 'Why?'

  13. #88
    Mighty Member Journey's Avatar
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    I just read the panel with Johnny he literally just asked Franklin a question only for kid to be like "It's a mutant thing you wouldn't understand" then Johnny just acknowledged he's been on Krakoa a lot and gave him a new suit I don't see how he was treating the kid weird in anyway.

    Also I acknowledge F4X was shit in every regard but I stand firmly in the fact had they called the Richards, and not just popped up with a vanguard of Krakoa's best that all could have been avoided and Kitty had no right taking the kid off the premises F4 had warranted reactions IMO.
    Last edited by Journey; 10-27-2020 at 11:52 AM.

  14. #89
    Extraordinary Member Glio's Avatar
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    Johnny reacts like Franklin has gone goth or punk, I didn't see it as offensive.

  15. #90
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Johnny Storm?
    He who has worked with mutants on numerous occasions and being led by Storm when Reed asked Storm and T'Challa to take over for a bit? He who as stuck his pee-pee in alien hoo-haas is "weirding out" about mutant pop stars? That Johnny Storm?
    LMAO! Good points, too.

    I think Johnny was just surprised. Maybe he responded poorly as people are oft to do when caught off guard.

    Another thing the F4 are all probably experiencing is "little Franklin" is not little anymore, nor has he been for some time.....I can see him wanting to be called "Frank" soon too.

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