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  1. #121
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    1. Multiverse renovations - new structures every year!
    2. New cosmics involved in the renovations - Pumpkina, Burpetua, whatever stupid name you can come up. Also, these universe renovations all center on one crappy planet.
    3. The Guardians screw up yet again. More corps with no understanding the nature of vision and the electromagnetic spectrum
    4. The Joker - kill him off, no alternates anymore , the Batman who laughs is good but end it.
    5. No more speedsters. The Flash was unique for a bit, now there's a zillion of them.
    6. Really forced politically correct versions of characters. Have ethnicity and religion and sexuality be more organic to the store rather than a self-congratulatory aspect of a new intro. Wow, a Vegan Green Lantern who makes constructs that are only plants!
    7. Losing powers, dying - oh won't that be undone.

  2. #122
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    How many people do you know would be fine with a clone being created without their knowledge or consent? Hell, Clark's reaction in the show is actually better than in the comics where he left the boy in the care of a money-grubbing agent. Superman has always had a hands off approach when it comes to other members of the Super-family. The issue with the show is them not acknowledging the implications of Clark being violated but calling him a dick is ignoring a lot context and even then, it's just one season.




    How was the finale of STAS his fault? He was brainwashed. It's like blaming Bucky for what he did under Hydra's control. The Cadmus arc is also an exaggeration. Everyone made mistakes there and the situation is as much Waller's fault if not entirely.





    See above. This one isn't even showing him as flawed because, again, he is not in control of himself.




    Did I miss the part in MoS were Superman fails to defeat Zod and Batman swoops in or when Batman kills Doomsday? I get you don't like this take but at least actually criticize what you've seen happening on screen.



    Clark was saving people as early as the first episode without any pressure. His issues were the Jor-El A.I. trying to control his life and remove his empathy for human. You know, that thing Superman needs to actually care about people. This revisionist history about how Clark actually acted in Smallville seems to be based on people disliking the lack of Tom Welling in a Superman costume.



    Here's the thing - I'm not particularly fond of evil Superman either or at least how it is handled. But the perception of Superman being perfect likely has to do with fans reacting to any portrayal that shows any weakness or difficulty overcoming obstacles as an aberration worthy of total contempt. It isn't the only reason but it is definitely a major one. Just look at the versions you listed - the only one that outright counts as a bad portrayal of Superman is Injustice where he's a villain and even there they point out that this is not how he is supposed to act. Everything else is either him being victimized or making mistakes that have very, very extenuating circumstances.

    The only reason the Donner movies portray him as a positive figure is by ignoring the implications of his actions.
    You completely misunderstood my point. My point was that they’re “deconstructing” a version of Superman that doesn’t exist anymore and hasn’t existed since Donner. We’ve gotten tons of stories that showcased how flawed he is, so going for the cheap shot of “you thought Superman was perfect but now he’s eating babies” isn’t as deep as they think it is. And it’s played out because we’ve gotten so many stories about what a flawed hero he is that we haven’t gotten enough stories where he actually is the ultimate hero to justify calling him that. You have to build a character up before you can tear them down.

    I like Smallville, S1 & 2 of YJ, and STAS. I like JL/JLU although I don’t really like their Superman. I don’t have a problem with Clark being an ass (I liked Morrison’s New 52 Superman after all and that guy was as flawed as they come). But Superman has been shown again and again as a dick without enough of a balance. We didn’t see any of his and Kon’s bonding process in YJ that happened entirely off screen between seasons while we get to see Dick and Bruce play basketball together. The Cadmus arc hinges on Superman, specifically Superman, being an idiot who knows where his authoritarian impulses could lead given he met the Justice Lord version of himself, yet is still openly flirting with the possibility of going down that road. Batman got that scene with Ace and Superman didn’t get anything like that to balance out all the scenes of him being an ass.

    My problem is not “Superman is shown as flawed” my problem is they’ve completely forgotten to make him likeable in their rush to show he’s not perfect. This is the fatal flaw of DCEU Superman which is why the general audiences were completely indifferent to him dying and made Martha memes instead after BvS. And also there’s people like NRS and RS who clearly just flat out dislike or don’t care about him which has hurt his image a lot.
    Last edited by Vordan; 10-24-2020 at 06:03 PM.

  3. #123
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    NRS and RS?

  4. #124
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    NRS and RS?
    NetherRealm Studios and Rocksteady.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I like Smallville, S1 & 2 of YJ, and STAS. I like JL/JLU although I don’t really like their Superman. I don’t have a problem with Clark being an ass (I liked Morrison’s New 52 Superman after all and that guy was as flawed as they come). But Superman has been shown again and again as a dick without enough of a balance. We didn’t see any of his and Kon’s bonding process in YJ that happened entirely off screen between seasons while we get to see Dick and Bruce play basketball together. The Cadmus arc hinges on Superman, specifically Superman, being an idiot who knows where his authoritarian impulses could lead given he met the Justice Lord version of himself, yet is still openly flirting with the possibility of going down that road. Batman got that scene with Ace and Superman didn’t get anything like that to balance out all the scenes of him being an ass.
    Not to mention his big moment is the "World of Cardboard" speech: purely physical action, because by the time of JL/U he's kind of just a dumb meathead.

    And it still doesn't even work, Lex saves the day.

  5. #125
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    NRS and RS?
    Netherrealm Studios and Rocksteady. NRS only cares about Batman and Harley, they’ve made that abundantly clear. Rocksteady I’m more uncertain on but man does their Suicide Squad game premise make me roll my eyes. I hope Gunn sets the team on the right track because “The Squad taking on Superman” is such a dumb direction and not at all what they’re supposed to be about imo.

  6. #126
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Oh, games are not really my thing, just play when something catch my eye.

    Thanks for the answers.

  7. #127
    Extraordinary Member Robotman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Superman is easily corruptible or will slide into villainy when things get too tough.

    Superman needs the marriage with Lois and the Kents alive as his "tethers to humanity"

    Oversimplifying Superman and Batman into "light and dark".
    This!
    The concept of Superman easily turning into a heartless person or a straight up villain because Lois dies needs to stop!

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    We didn’t see any of his and Kon’s bonding process in YJ that happened entirely off screen between seasons while we get to see Dick and Bruce play basketball together.
    Maybe we could have seen more of it but we did at least see the end result of that bonding and as I said, people are far harder on Clark for the situation than he deserves.


    The Cadmus arc hinges on Superman, specifically Superman, being an idiot who knows where his authoritarian impulses could lead given he met the Justice Lord version of himself, yet is still openly flirting with the possibility of going down that road.
    This is a huge oversimplification of Superman's role in the Cadmus arc. Firstly, he is not "openly flirting authoritarianism". He actually is trying to avoid going down the Justice Lord path despite Luthor and Cadmus openly bating him. You forget that he is the one saying they should turn themselves in after Luthor hi-jacks their satellite and frames them for an attack on a city.

    Batman got that scene with Ace and Superman didn’t get anything like that to balance out all the scenes of him being an ass.
    For one thing, that is straight up wrong. For The Man Who Has Everything shows his more vulnerable side and we also had him defending Hawkgirl. And the scenes of him being in ass are a) very few and far between (there's more moments of Wonder Woman being a jerk especially before McDuffie became editor and producer) and b) they have a lot more mitigating circumstances.

    My problem is not “Superman is shown as flawed” my problem is they’ve completely forgotten to make him likeable in their rush to show he’s not perfect.
    Depends on who you ask. The internet echo chamber certainly makes opinions look more widespread than they are (see The Last Jedi or The Last of Us 2).


    And also there’s people like NRS and RS who clearly just flat out dislike or don’t care about him which has hurt his image a lot.
    I don't think hate or apathy has anything to do with it. Sometimes, it's just business and nothing personal. I know it's easy to feel like creators have it out for some characters - I've been guilty of that in the past - but most of the time it really is just them telling a story they felt was good even if some of us didn't like it.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 10-24-2020 at 08:25 PM.

  9. #129
    Extraordinary Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Maybe we could have seen more of it but we did at least see the end result of that bonding and as I said, people are far harder on Clark for the situation than he deserves.




    This is a huge oversimplification of Superman's role in the Cadmus arc. Firstly, he is not "openly flirting authoritarianism". He actually is trying to avoid going down the Justice Lord path despite Luthor and Cadmus openly bating him. You forget that he is the one saying they should turn themselves in after Luthor hi-jacks their satellite and frames them for an attack on a city.
    .
    Eh the end result feels cheap when we didn’t get to actually see the struggle and building of the relationship. It’s putting the cart before the horse and just felt hollow, especially since Kon and Clark barely interacted in S2 yet again.

    https://twitter.com/thedcuniverse/st...655847424?s=21
    Watch this clip.
    Last edited by Vordan; 10-24-2020 at 09:00 PM.

  10. #130
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Eh the end result feels cheap when we didn’t get to actually see the struggle and building of the relationship. It’s putting the cart before the horse and just felt hollow, especially since Kon and Clark barely interacted in S2 yet again.

    https://twitter.com/thedcuniverse/st...655847424?s=21
    Watch this clip.
    "What's for desert?" indeed .

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Eh the end result feels cheap when we didn’t get to actually see the struggle and building of the relationship. It’s putting the cart before the horse and just felt hollow, especially since Kon and Clark barely interacted in S2 yet again.

    https://twitter.com/thedcuniverse/st...655847424?s=21
    Watch this clip.
    As I said, it's a lot more complicated than that and he does admit when they make mistakes. Besides, why is the blame solely on Superman? Did the rest of the League not also agree to the satellite cannon?

  12. #132
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Zoom came after Thawne was long dead and has an entirely different relationship with Wally than Thawne had with Barry, and Godspeed is kind of his own thing instead of just being an evil Speedster like the Reverse-Flashes.
    I'm a big fan of Zoom! And his relationship to Wally. I think I wasn't clear; I meant we didn't need Daniel West as the new "Reverse Flash".

    Godspeed had a different thing going, but he was still an evil speedster. Not a terrible character, but to me a bit cliched and was designed to mirror the aspects of Barry's new origin that I do not like.

  13. #133
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    Thinking about it some more, the idea of an "ultimate hero" doesn't do any character any good. Writers forget that they themselves are not perfect and cannot write perfect characters. Just writer the heroes sympathetically and understand that they will make mistakes some times.

  14. #134
    Mighty Member Waterfall's Avatar
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    I’m tired of events that explains how the universe works.

    “Barry Allen needs to learn to trust people and get over his momma’s death”. As a matter of fact, any Nora mention raises a cringe in me.

    Titans being disbanded, ridiculed etc.

  15. #135
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    All the villain worship and love at DC should stop. Sure, write interesting and complex bad guys if you like, and you should, but stop with the making them the focus, stop with so obviously loving them so much. It kind of makes me glad I'm not standing next to any of those writers alone in a dark alley if that's the way they think. Johns is an obvious offender, but he's hardly the only one. The heroes are the heroes, DC, not the bad guys. And...CBR and Rama...stop encouraging them!

    Also, stop with the ever more ultimate villain we've somehow never heard of before, but is way more powerful than the last all powerful villain.

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