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  1. #46
    Incredible Member OopsIdiditagain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Just curious, but how many of these types of villains are out there these days?
    Not many, most villains including the chaotic ones like the Joker have a tragic past.

    Very few villains are characters from a loving family with a happy childhood and choose to be evil out of their own accord. It's always "boohoo this bad situation pushed me over the edge, now I murder people".
    OP characters make me itch

  2. #47
    Spectacular Member Stick Figure's Avatar
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    Secret identities need to be completely done away with.
    Super heroes “no kill” policy.
    Character need to remain in their 30’s.
    Capes.

  3. #48
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stick Figure View Post
    Secret identities need to be completely done away with.
    Super heroes “no kill” policy.
    Character need to remain in their 30’s.
    Capes.
    I disagree with most of those. I don't want characters killing willy-nilly, and it should never be a first solution or murder, but for most it should not be a hard-and-fast "absolutely never kill."

    But for me, secret identities are a strong part of superheroes. Fundamental aspect of the genre that they exist. I kinda sill miss Diana having one. And there's nothing wrong with capes at all - they're impractical, but no more so than many capeless costumes.

    I'd like to see more civilian life and truly civilian supporting characters. To see the life outside of superheroes and for heroes to have connections with "ordinary" people. But there's not really a cliche that needs to be eliminated there.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 10-22-2020 at 06:56 PM.

  4. #49
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Joker being evil incarnate gotta go, it's long overstayed it's welcome.
    Reading List (Super behind but reading them nontheless):

    DC: Batman Beyond, Red Hood, Far Sector
    Marvel: Marauders, X-Force, X-Men, X-Factor, New Mutants, Hellions, Miles Morales: Spider-Man, Immortal Hulk, Venom, Daredevil
    LionForge: Noble, Astonisher
    Image: Killadelphia, Bitter Root, Excellence
    IDW: TMNT: The Last Ronin
    Other: XOGeneSYS, Clock Striker, Is'Nana The Were-Spider

  5. #50
    Three Legged Member married guy's Avatar
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    Let's see.....

    Death means death!! NO MORE RESURRECTIONS.
    Villain turns to cool 'anti-hero' (Yeah Harley, I'm looking at you)
    Bat God having an answer for everything has well & truly run it's course.
    The word 'crisis' appearing ANYWHERE in the DCU. NO. MORE.
    "My name is Wally West. I'm the fastest man alive!"
    I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter.

  6. #51

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    - evil Superman

    - Superman "holding back" and by extension, the notion that absolutely no one, neither individually nor collectively, can match him or fill the void of his absence

    - Batman's "prep time" enabling him to beat the entire Justice League single-handed and at a moment's notice

    - Wonder Woman and the Amazons hating men

    - Wonder Woman using a sword and shield she doesn't need merely because she's "a warrior"

    - mind control stories causing the heroes to fight each other

    - if you must do a mind control or evil spell story, please acknowledge that Wonder Woman's Lasso should be a defense and/or resolution to the problem

    - Joker and/or Harley Quinn defeating characters far above their weight class because "they're too crazy to predict"

    - making every villain a mass-murderer; some can just be thieves who prefer not to kill bystanders. It's practically a plot point in Reservoir Dogs

    - constantly reworking continuity

    - established heroes getting jobbed out whenever a new character or team is introduced
    "Never place your trust in us. We're only human. Inevitably, we will disappoint you."


  7. #52
    Fantastic Member
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    Portraying Jason only as "Joker killed me, nobody helped me, I'm damaged" . Only Lobdell tries to develop his character.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinsir View Post
    It depends on the screen time they get, but its pretty rare for a full fledged villain to just be a bad guy. So many movie super villains have have a personal vendetta against the main character, not their superhero persona, but their real identity.
    That isn't incompatible with "just being a bad guy".

    Just off the top of my head, movie super villains who are evil for the sake of it are:

    Malekith from Thor 2

    Enchantress in Suicide Squad

    Ares in Wonder Woman

    Cross in Ant-Man

    Hela in Thor 3

    Ronan in Guardians of the Galaxy

    Ego in Guardians 2

    Dormamu in Dr Strange

    And it doesn't matter whether the villain has a vendetta against the hero persona or their civilian identity since they're the same person anyway.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    Not many, most villains including the chaotic ones like the Joker have a tragic past.

    Very few villains are characters from a loving family with a happy childhood and choose to be evil out of their own accord. It's always "boohoo this bad situation pushed me over the edge, now I murder people".
    The Joker has always been implied, if not outright stated to be lying about having a tragic past.

  10. #55
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Superman becoming evil. Injustice, for better or worse, has proven to be a compelling universe to a lot of fans. While I think it's undercut by failing to explore Batman's own morally dubious behavior, I can respect why this idea worked for so many others. That said, I don't want to see anymore evil Superman stories for the foreseeable future. Evil Superman-types, sure, but I don't want to see Superman himself breaking bad. It's become one of the laziest, easiest stories to use for the character and isn't very compelling.
    I am so over Evil Superman and moreso when "but Lois died so he snaps." It's been hurting the character for so goddamn long and is a disservice to him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Gotham City being taken over by one of his villains for the purpose of teaching Batman some stupid lesson by murdering and terrorizing the poor shmucks who still live in that hellhole of a city. Even in the high fantasy of superhero comics, there is simply no plausible explanation why any sane person would still live in Gotham City after the unending series of mass murders and catastrophes that regularly occur there. Give Gotham a break, please.
    Nobody on the Justice League should respect Bruce for how often he loses to his city to his rogues. Escalation has gone too far. There's no justifiable excuse for why Clark, Diana, Barry or the resident GL don't just roll in and clean it up. Especially Diana and the GL who can and will exercise lethal force and solve its problems. You can allow them to not get involved when he keeps it on lock, but he fails more than he doesn't. There's no excuse. Modern Bruce is a failure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    The Flash needs to stop fighting evil speedsters for a very, very long time. The Reverse Flash, Zoom, Godspeed and the rest need to take a long vacation in the Speed Force and leave The Flash to have some fun, light adventures for a while that don't involve overly elaborate and convoluted revenge upon Barry Allen.
    I agree, primarily because it really does turn The Flash into a generic specialist. In case of speedster, call Flash. Else, have you tried Elongated Man? Half the property damage with similar results! Seriously, though, the Rogues are severely underused and I'll add enough of Forces for a while.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I don't need any more shocking revelations about the deep dark secrets the Guardians of the Universe have been keeping from the Green Lanterns of Earth. And I don't need any new Green Lanterns of Earth until they figure out what to do with the ones they've already got. They got lucky with Jessica Cruz, but we've got enough. Thank you. Please add more alien GLs, not more humans. I haven't read Far Sector yet, though, so maybe I'll change my mind there.
    Jo is cool, and the book is very good, but there does still come the problem of having a shit ton of Earth GLs and there will never be enough product justified by sales to highlight them all. At this point, the GLs need culling and I'm sure some of my favorites are gonna go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I don't need to see Ollie cheat on Dinah ever again. Time shenanigans can wipe away the previous instances, but it's stupid and makes both Ollie & Dinah look bad. Enough with Ollie being a scumbag and Dinah continually taking him back.
    AGREED. And for that matter, keep Rucka and Winick away from BOTH of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Wonder Woman as arm candy for Batman and Superman.
    The Justice League animated series has done more harm to Diana than anything in modern history because it turned her from her own hero into Batman's love interest. Trinity shipping is the worst and forces Diana's entire corner of the universe to be on hold while she latches onto Batman or Superman, not developing her own love interests and supporting casts, until both those men go back to their primary love interests (Selina and Lois) when adaptions or seminal works are being crafted. It actually hurts her. It keeps her in the same rut she will forever stay in because there's no mold to follow since every few years she gets moon eyes for her two colleagues.

    And I just don't understand what she'd see in modern Bruce anyway. All his admirable traits are slowly eroding while he adds stuff like "estranged from his son with half hearted attempts at reconciliation," "breeds mistrust and plots to murder his friends... HYPOTHETICALLY, of course!" and "abuses his kids by teaching them a bogus 'language' where he strikes them violently." Bronze age Bruce, I get it. He was an admirable dude. Modern Bruce is almost a villain at times.
    [/quote]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Wonder Woman kills and that's bad.
    I'll add on to this: Diana is a warrior. I disagree. She comes from a culture that can be misconstrued as a warrior culture, but they're peaceful. They are not going to kill unless there is absolutely no other way and Diana certainly doesn't do so easily. It hurts her a lot.

    I'll add I'm sick of Diana with sword and shield. Her weapon is the goddamn lasso of truth and her physicality. Stop trying to make her Xena or Red Sonja or something.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Themyscira being invaded and/or some deep dark secret about it. Amazons being massive misandrists also falls under this.
    It's too difficult for writers to accept Themyscira is a small community that's pretty groovy, my man. There's gotta be some deep corruption there because something something I don't want to acknowledge Diana's mission makes no sense if she's not coming from a system that works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Batman’s “prep time” and Superman’s “he’s not holding back this time” superpowers.
    As much as I do appreciate Superman finding a new reservoir of strength when he needs to save someone, I'd gladly give it up for Bruce to be reigned in and held to the same accountable standard as everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Other colored Lantern Corps.
    Not until we get periwinkle.


    Some others:

    Sidekicks age the hero!
    Batman has been the favorite hero of teenagers since the 80s and nobody cared how many Robins he had. It makes old men realize they're old. Fine. We're old. Stop being a baby about it and embrace your history with the characters.

    Superman is boring because he has too many powers!
    He has more built in weaknesses than pretty much any of DC's top talents and only J'onn (who is Superman on steroids) has a more exploitable one. Kryptonite shows up more in Superman stories than bullets do in Batman. That's ludicrous considering only a tiny fraction of shards of it would come in the direction of Earth.

    Dick Grayson's love life!
    It's over. It's going to be one of the two redheads and neither will ever "win" because no side of the fandom can accept the alternative. So give it a rest. I'm not even saying give him an open relationship, because I think that's just going to make things worse with arguing who the "real" love of his life is. Just let it rest. Five years, no Barbara and no Kory. No love interests. Just team-ups, solo adventures and that's it. I like Dick with both those ladies and even some others, but I'm done letting his love life be the albatross around the poor guy's neck.

    Keeping the Hawks apart!
    DC seems to believe that two people loving each other across time and space is toxic because "well they're fated to so how real is it." It's real, you bastard. We should all be so lucky to find someone who would love us in this life and the next. Jesus. It's part of their core appeal.

    The Joker!
    He's gone too far. He's a physical match for Bruce now being obscenely deadly with a blade and faster than a man who has trained his body to perfection... because he fell into some goo, I guess? The Joker becomes less intimidating the more people he kills and the more physically capable he becomes. I'm more terrified of a Joker who brings Gotham to its knees that can be stopped in one punch the second Bruce is on him than I am some ethereal super clown with all his rogue stats maxed out. The heart toxin has to go too. That's just stupid on toast.

    Batman and The Joker teaming up!
    Get it!? They're enemies but have to work together!!! This just makes Bruce his accomplice. It's wrong. It ravages the core of the hero. Bruce should never need the Joker's help and should he, he'd be too proud to accept it. May as well have Joe Chill train the Robins at marksmanship while he's at it.
    Last edited by Robanker; 10-22-2020 at 11:26 PM.

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Some more because I wasn't done, I guess.


    Supergirl is stronger than Superman!
    Baskin Robins 31 flavors of bullshit. It gets said a lot but never really amounts to much. Whenever the DCU is in peril, Clark's the one who steps up, not Kara. She's only stronger to satisfy a writer's assertion she is but never actually comes up when any stakes are on, except CoIE and Clark probably could have done that too in her position. I'd be fine with Kara being stronger if it's established female Kryptonians process yellow sunlight more efficiently, but Ursa/Faora are never explicitly stronger than Zod. It only comes up with Kara. Why? She's been on Earth/exposed to yellow sunlight far shorter than Clark. The usual excuse is "well she doesn't hold back" which is also incredibly stupid because of course she does. She doesn't sneeze and split the western seaboard in twain.

    And Superman is generally equal to all other Kryptonians except, again, when the chips are down and he dusts off the plot armor. All I'm asking is if we're going to make a rule about their bodies processing sunlight, make it apply across the board or stop trying to prop up Supergirl at Superman's expense with "but she's totes stronger my bro." If you want a younger person with less muscle mass and exposure to magic rays that supercharge them to be stronger, explicitly make women process it better or something. I'm perfectly fine with that, but at least make some effort other than "but bruh."

    Redeeming villains!
    Especially female ones. I don't know why other than "they're hot and we want to see them in more books" all the best female villains get redeemed. Cheetah had bouts of it, Killer Frost, Poison Ivy, Harley Quinn, arguably Catwoman (from villain to anti-hero and now just a hero) and so on. I understand tragic plots make you root for them getting it together (Freeze, Harley) but enough already. Ivy turned from a woman who could bring Gotham to its knees to Harley Quinn's supporting cast girlfriend. It's a massive reduction of character and agency, and frankly sexist because it turned a character WITH agency into someone's arm candy. She got a small arc in which she did something villainous again and the world lost it's mind. That's how bad it's become. Ivy was Ivy and that wasn't okay anymore.

    What was good for Harls was real, real bad for Ivy.

    And if we must redeem villains, actually make them atone for their crimes. Harley gets a slap on the wrist because "well she was abused too." Fine, I agree she dealt with horrors for far too long... And nobody makes her answer for the murders she committed and helped commit? The torture? The rampant crime sprees? The Bat family should refuse to ever work with her for her history alone, and yet there she is, practically a member (and will be before the end of next year). And never once did she have to endure them dragging her through the mud the way heroes who break bad for a minute do. Wally West is never going to live down Heroes in Crisis. Harley Quinn can blow up kids and Bruce is willing to work with her. I understand retcons and whathaveyou, but when Hal was revived, he had a LOT to answer for with Parallax. Until Harley has to answer for her crimes on the printed page, I can't and won't accept her.

    But in all, I'm just tired of the best villains coming to the side of the angels. They're compelling as the villains. Let them be what they're best at.
    Last edited by Robanker; 10-22-2020 at 11:29 PM.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post

    I agree, primarily because it really does turn The Flash into a generic specialist. In case of speedster, call Flash
    Given how powerful speedsters are, that might not be a bad idea.



    Jo is cool, and the book is very good, but there does still come the problem of having a shit ton of Earth GLs and there will never be enough product justified by sales to highlight them all. At this point, the GLs need culling and I'm sure some of my favorites are gonna go.
    It seems to me that the solution to this would just focus more on the alien Green Lanterns and show that Earth isn’t the only planet to have more than one member in the Corps.


    AGREED. And for that matter, keep Rucka and Winick away from BOTH of them.
    Winick I understand but what’s wrong with Rucka? In fact, when has he ever written either of them? I can’t imagine he’d do any wrong by Dinah given how well he handles female characters.

    I'll add on to this: Diana is a warrior. I disagree. She comes from a culture that can be misconstrued as a warrior culture, but they're peaceful. They are not going to kill unless there is absolutely no other way and Diana certainly doesn't do so easily. It hurts her a lot.
    Basically, writers need to not write her as one-dimensional, I agree.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post

    Nobody on the Justice League should respect Bruce for how often he loses to his city to his rogues. Escalation has gone too far. There's no justifiable excuse for why Clark, Diana, Barry or the resident GL don't just roll in and clean it up. Especially Diana and the GL who can and will exercise lethal force and solve its problems. You can allow them to not get involved when he keeps it on lock, but he fails more than he doesn't. There's no excuse. Modern Bruce is a failure.
    In the interest of fairness, Aquaman loses his kingdom fairly often these days as well.


    Keeping the Hawks apart!
    DC seems to believe that two people loving each other across time and space is toxic because "well they're fated to so how real is it." It's real, you bastard. We should all be so lucky to find someone who would love us in this life and the next. Jesus. It's part of their core appeal.

    This is complicated by how one sees reincarnation. Especially when it comes to the question of you're just a copy of your previous life or a very different person altogether like with the Avatar Cycle.

  14. #59
    Astonishing Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Given how powerful speedsters are, that might not be a bad idea.




    It seems to me that the solution to this would just focus more on the alien Green Lanterns and show that Earth isn’t the only planet to have more than one member in the Corps.



    Winick I understand but what’s wrong with Rucka? In fact, when has he ever written either of them? I can’t imagine he’d do any wrong by Dinah given how well he handles female characters.


    Basically, writers need to not write her as one-dimensional, I agree.
    He has described Renee Montoya of "having the Oliver Queen problem of 'oh, you're cute!'" to denote her being unfaithful to Kate in the past. That alone tells me he doesn't need to get his hands on Ollie/Dinah ever.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    He has described Renee Montoya of "having the Oliver Queen problem of 'oh, you're cute!'" to denote her being unfaithful to Kate in the past. That alone tells me he doesn't need to get his hands on Ollie/Dinah ever.
    Oh. Well if it means anything, Rucka doesn't necessarily write all his characters the same way so maybe he won't do that to Oliver and Dinah. But I understand your weariness regarding that.

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