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  1. #106
    Incredible Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    A new version or replacement of a character showing up and being hailed as so much better, stronger or whatever for no other reason than trying to promote that character without having to do any heavy lifting establishing them.
    Agree with this. I liked Jessica Cruz specifically because she came with a whole bunch of hurdles to overcome as the new Green Lantern.

  2. #107
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    A new version or replacement of a character showing up and being hailed as so much better, stronger or whatever for no other reason than trying to promote that character without having to do any heavy lifting establishing them.
    Think this is why I was never able to really latch on to 90s versions of characters like Tim Drake or Kyle Rayner.

  3. #108
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Well, I think it was a while before Tim was being touted as being "better" than Jason as Robin and Kyle had a distinct learning curve when he first got the ring, especially since he didn't have anyone to teach or mentor him with the Corps. all gone/dead.

  4. #109
    Incredible Member OopsIdiditagain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Westerners like subversion.

    A “bad guy who turns good” is worth more than a “good guy who is good”. The same with a “bad guy who turns good”.

    The problem is that when you use a shocking twist enough times, it becomes expected.

    It's gotten to the point where "a likeable villain staying a villain" feels more subversive than "bad guy who turns good".
    OP characters make me itch

  5. #110
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OopsIdiditagain View Post
    It's gotten to the point where "a likeable villain staying a villain" feels more subversive than "bad guy who turns good".
    The real subversion nowadays is good guy who have not dark secret and remains a good guy. And not only in comics.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Think this is why I was never able to really latch on to 90s versions of characters like Tim Drake or Kyle Rayner.
    That is bizarre because in the cases of 90s iterations I followed (Connor, Kyle, Tim) they all came with quite a bit of character development and ability/skill progressively and expressly called out in their stories. Conner was more adept at martial arts arts but his back story addressed that as well as other differences between him and Ollie. Which ones just appeared and were ubercompetent for no reason?

  7. #112
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Agreed for the most part on all counts. That said, a writer who writes Superman into a corner where he's forced to kill truly lacks the sort of imagination it takes to write the character.
    Okay, but you have to admit it isn't that imaginative going down the deux ex machina route, either.

    Which brings me to this: writers recycle some things because there aren't millions of new things to add to a story.
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  8. #113
    Incredible Member OopsIdiditagain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    The real subversion nowadays is good guy who have not dark secret and remains a good guy. And not only in comics.
    Or a good guy who never deals with a tragic past.
    OP characters make me itch

  9. #114
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    Okay, but you have to admit it isn't that imaginative going down the deux ex machina route, either.

    Which brings me to this: writers recycle some things because there aren't millions of new things to add to a story.
    Would it automatically be Deus Ex Machina if he gets out of the "you must kill someone" scenario though? It definitely can and has, but not in all instances.

    I think in terms of serialized narratives for these characters, they all should have just ended a long time ago. It seems like a TV series that has gone on way too long and should have been cancelled already because it's just a shambling corpse of its former self.

  10. #115
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Would it automatically be Deus Ex Machina if he gets out of the "you must kill someone" scenario though? It definitely can and has, but not in all instances.
    I agree with that, but when it's every time, it's strains credulity.

    I think in terms of serialized narratives for these characters, they all should have just ended a long time ago. It seems like a TV series that has gone on way too long and should have been cancelled already because it's just a shambling corpse of its former self.
    But their successors would get saddled with the same cliches instead.
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  11. #116
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    Teenage / twenty-something fully grown kid shows up in the heroes life that he's never known about. Ugh. Let's skip the actually hard parts of having a kid or being a parent, and just tell a tale of (terrible absentee) father-son bonding drama with an instant teenager, and never mention how irresponsible it makes the hero look for not knowing how a Bat-condom works.

    Quiver those arrows, Ollie! Maybe Roy wouldn't be a teen dad if you'd set a better example!

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    YJ is like the master of having important stuff happen off-screen because of the time-skips.
    I've sometimes wondered if YJ.2 was supposed to have a couple of more episodes to it. They did a BUNCH of shoe-horning near the end.

  13. #118
    Incredible Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    I've sometimes wondered if YJ.2 was supposed to have a couple of more episodes to it. They did a BUNCH of shoe-horning near the end.
    I think it was and some of the storylines ended up in Season 3 (which was honestly more disjointed).

  14. #119
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    But their successors would get saddled with the same cliches instead.
    End the whole narrative and just do new stuff altogether I say

    Superman's story ends, I don't need to see the further adventures of everyone else or Superman II/III/IV/etc.

  15. #120
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Bat-God. The idea that Batman is prepared for literally anything no matter how outlandish and has a plan to take out anyone. I get it. You've got him on a team with gods. But at some point, you're delving into shark repellent territory. And while we're at it, making the Joker the greatest villain ever. He's a guy in clown makeup. He can't be that powerful.

    Making Lois Superman's "tether" to humanity. The guy grew up here. It's not like he has no connections to Earth whatsoever.
    Last edited by superduperman; 10-24-2020 at 02:48 PM.
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