DC Clichés that need a looooong rest...

[Agent Z]

Redeeming villains!
Especially female ones. I don't know why other than "they're hot and we want to see them in more books" all the best female villains get redeemed. Cheetah had bouts of it, Killer Frost, Poison Ivy, Harley Quinn, arguably Catwoman (from villain to anti-hero and now just a hero) and so on. I understand tragic plots make you root for them getting it together (Freeze, Harley) but enough already. Ivy turned from a woman who could bring Gotham to its knees to Harley Quinn's supporting cast girlfriend. It's a massive reduction of character and agency, and frankly sexist because it turned a character WITH agency into someone's arm candy. She got a small arc in which she did something villainous again and the world lost it's mind. That's how bad it's become. Ivy was Ivy and that wasn't okay anymore.

What was good for Harls was real, real bad for Ivy.

And if we must redeem villains, actually make them atone for their crimes. Harley gets a slap on the wrist because "well she was abused too." Fine, I agree she dealt with horrors for far too long... And nobody makes her answer for the murders she committed and helped commit? The torture? The rampant crime sprees? The Bat family should refuse to ever work with her for her history alone, and yet there she is, practically a member (and will be before the end of next year). And never once did she have to endure them dragging her through the mud the way heroes who break bad for a minute do. Wally West is never going to live down Heroes in Crisis. Harley Quinn can blow up kids and Bruce is willing to work with her. I understand retcons and whathaveyou, but when Hal was revived, he had a LOT to answer for with Parallax. Until Harley has to answer for her crimes on the printed page, I can't and won't accept her.

But in all, I'm just tired of the best villains coming to the side of the angels. They're compelling as the villains. Let them be what they're best at.

I'm torn on this because I do think DC (and Marvel) aren't quite good at handling this. Personally, I would like Cheshire to be redeemed but that's because I preferred her Young Justice incarnation to the Dragon Lady stereotype of the comics (plus she's got a more tragic backstory than Harley yet is written as far less sympathetic particularly by Gail Simone who thinks Poison Ivy would make a good member of the Justice League). In general, I think this just speaks to the larger problem of writers not understanding the implications of their writing.

[Vordan]

A lot of my big ones have already been named so:
Events revolving around Multiversal destruction, continuity, and DC being edgy - Just stop writing bad stories. I don’t want Ultimo the personification of edge showing up and destroying the Multiverse while the writer makes a big apology about how DC is super sorry they killed off a bunch of Titans but don’t worry, from now on it will be sunshine and rainbows! These big events just add to the cluster**** and don’t solve anything. And every time DC tries to “fix” their continuity they only made it worse. I don’t need a damn in depth retelling of what the last 15 years of Superman stories were like, just give me good ones in the present I can enjoy.

Superman giving speeches about Hope ™/Characters repeatedly talking about Hope ™/Writers beating us over the head with Superman is about Hope ™ - Look Waid had a great idea in Birthright but this thing has been thoroughly beaten to death, dragged through the mud, and left in the sun to rot. Simply having your protagonist give a speech about Hope ™ or having the supporting cast say the protagonist is a symbol of Hope ™ does not make your work hopeful. There’s this thing called subtlety and writers need to relearn what it means. All-Star Superman is a very hopeful work and guess what? I don’t think the damn word ever shows up. So please ban this word from their vocabulary until writers relearn subtlety because I’m so tired of the speeches and monologues and comparisons to Hope ™.

Something awful happens to Nightwing because of a Batman event - How can anyone say with a straight face that Dick as Nightwing has “moved out of Bruce’s shadow” when he has never been so fully submerged in said shadow? He got shot in the goddamn head solely to facilitate yet another “Bruce is an ass to the Batfamily and keeps them at arms length” story. His entire world revolves around what’s going down in Gotham. Dick needs to be either taken out of the Batfamily and writers need to focus on building up his Mythos, or they need to admit he’s still Batman’s sidekick and move him back to Gotham. This half measure doesn’t cut it for me. Why doesn’t Dick get to have the entire spy section of the DCU to himself? That’s something that would be uniquely his that Bruce can’t claim.

Titans runs about how “we’re a family!” - They’ve done this so many times and guess what? Just saying we’re a family doesn’t mean you have a compelling hook. The Titans need a HiX-Men tier revamp because right now and for the past decade or so they’ve sucked. They’ve been nothing but event fodder, or dumb relationship drama, or other crap like that. They need a solid hook to draw people in and “being a family” doesn’t cut it.

Struggles for Atlantis’ throne - After KSD please do something else. I’ve enjoyed her run but at this point we need to move on. It’s the freaking oceans, there’s so many cool ideas about what to do with Aquaman out there that don’t involve yet another coup attempt.

‘Member the Killing Joke? ft. Barbara and Joker - If this is all they can think of doing with her, please just let her be Oracle and give Cass or Steph the role.

Yet another childhood rival for Bruce/Batman is a loser because he doesn’t kill - When it comes to rivals Bruce made while training to be Batman we have Bronze Tiger. Hush. Nobody. And now Ghost Maker. How many times have we seen this plot? Can we please give it a goddamn break? And enough of the stupid “why doesn’t Batman kill the Joker?” plots. He doesn’t do it because Joker is too profitable, the end, please stop beating this dead horse.

Going off "Evil Superman" and "Batman vs. Superman" tropes. Dystopian elseworlds where seemingly every hero not named Bruce Wayne or Clark Kent loses all their agency/competency because dumb and dumber decided to fight like five year olds and the moral fabric of the universe revolves around them.

For all of its failings I liked how the big conflict of Flashpoint was Aquaman and WW going at it. Least it switched things up. If we must have hero vs. hero bs the next one needs to be Flash and GL since they’re the only iconic duo who haven’t gone at it yet.

I would like to see people who get superpowers but don’t become superheroes or villains. In my head canon the DCU is filled with a bunch of people who gained powers through accidents and stuff, but keep it secret or use it to make money. Not everybody has the Desire to get punched in the face repeatedly for a hobby, or career. And when you think about it that Is what being a superhero is.

Astro City has a story about exactly this premise and it’s fantastic. The “sideliners” I think is what they’re called, check it out.

[lowfyr]

I'm turn on this because I do think DC (and Marvel) aren't quite good at handling this. Personally, I would like Cheshire to be redeemed but that's because I preferred her Young Justice incarnation to the Dragon Lady stereotype of the comics (plus she's got a more tragic backstory than Harley yet is written as far less sympathetic particularly by Gail Simone who thinks Poison Ivy would make a good member of the Justice League). In general, I think this just speaks to the larger problem of writers not understanding the implications of their writing.

The Problem with Comic Cheshire is she nuked a city just because and more or less got away with it. Even Roy defended her and he was in this story. So Gail Simone is not wrong with writing her like she does.
If anything Deathstroke should be in the same boat after some of the things he did in Teen Titans alone.

[Agent Z]

The Problem with Comic Cheshire is she nuked a city just because and more or less got away with it. Even Roy defended her and he was in this story. So Gail Simone is not wrong with writing her like she does.
If anything Deathstroke should be in the same boat after some of the things he did in Teen Titans alone.

Cheshire didn't get away with it. She went to prison and while Roy did initially defend her for Lian's sake, he and Lian washed their hands off her eventually. They were also the only ones who defended Cheshire at all. No one else did.

[Frontier]

Superman giving speeches about Hope ™/Characters repeatedly talking about Hope ™/Writers beating us over the head with Superman is about Hope ™ - Look Waid had a great idea in Birthright but this thing has been thoroughly beaten to death, dragged through the mud, and left in the sun to rot. Simply having your protagonist give a speech about Hope ™ or having the supporting cast say the protagonist is a symbol of Hope ™ does not make your work hopeful. There’s this thing called subtlety and writers need to relearn what it means. All-Star Superman is a very hopeful work and guess what? I don’t think the damn word ever shows up. So please ban this word from their vocabulary until writers relearn subtlety because I’m so tired of the speeches and monologues and comparisons to Hope ™.

Do you feel this is true for Captain America? I can't quite say his fans seem to mind all the inspirational speeches or talk about how inspirational Steve is, from what I've seen...

Something awful happens to Nightwing because of a Batman event - How can anyone say with a straight face that Dick as Nightwing has “moved out of Bruce’s shadow” when he has never been so fully submerged in said shadow? He got shot in the goddamn head solely to facilitate yet another “Bruce is an ass to the Batfamily and keeps them at arms length” story. His entire world revolves around what’s going down in Gotham. Dick needs to be either taken out of the Batfamily and writers need to focus on building up his Mythos, or they need to admit he’s still Batman’s sidekick and move him back to Gotham. This half measure doesn’t cut it for me. Why doesn’t Dick get to have the entire spy section of the DCU to himself? That’s something that would be uniquely his that Bruce can’t claim.

Forever Evil, where something happened to Dick, was a Justice League event.

Titans runs about how “we’re a family!” - They’ve done this so many times and guess what? Just saying we’re a family doesn’t mean you have a compelling hook. The Titans need a HiX-Men tier revamp because right now and for the past decade or so they’ve sucked. They’ve been nothing but event fodder, or dumb relationship drama, or other crap like that. They need a solid hook to draw people in and “being a family” doesn’t cut it.

I don't know if they need as dramatic a Hickman revamp, but they definitely need better writer and a stronger ongoing direction.

[SiegePerilous02]

Do you feel this is true for Captain America? I can't quite say his fans seem to mind all the inspirational speeches or talk about how inspirational Steve is, from what I've seen...

I think the difference now is, especially the movies, Cap is actually a man of action and getting stuff done rather than just blandly standing around and giving speeches.

[Gaius]

For all of its failings I liked how the big conflict of Flashpoint was Aquaman and WW going at it. Least it switched things up. If we must have hero vs. hero bs the next one needs to be Flash and GL since they’re the only iconic duo who haven’t gone at it yet.

I'd say Green Lantern/Green Arrow but I'm pretty sure those two being at each other's throats is part of the charm of that friendship.

I'll add on to this: Diana is a warrior. I disagree. She comes from a culture that can be misconstrued as a warrior culture, but they're peaceful. They are not going to kill unless there is absolutely no other way and Diana certainly doesn't do so easily. It hurts her a lot.

I'll add I'm sick of Diana with sword and shield. Her weapon is the goddamn lasso of truth and her physicality. Stop trying to make her Xena or Red Sonja or something.
.

Yeah, it's a become a pet peeve of mine when writers try to do a short-hand summary of Diana with stuff like "Warrior Goddess".

I wouldn't mind the sword and shield if it was treated like whenever Superman or Batman deck themselves out in power armor for certain situations but as a default yeah I find it just makes her more generic since no other characters really use stuff the lasso. Like giving Thor a machine gun or something.

[Frontier]

I think the difference now is, especially the movies, Cap is actually a man of action and getting stuff done rather than just blandly standing around and giving speeches.

I guess I don't see the difference because Superman generally still does stuff after giving speeches. At least from what I've seen.

[SiegePerilous02]

I guess I don't see the difference because Superman generally still does stuff after giving speeches. At least from what I've seen.

IDK, it depends on the fan. Something has just seemed off with Superman for a while that enough people seem to picking up on it. The empty, generic hope speeches or making him a messianic archetype, but not really having him be enough of a cool, charismatic man of action otherwise. When he's not standing for hope or whatever, he's either being brainwashed/turned evil or just generically saves the world from big generic disasters.

The MCU made Cap cool to the modern generation, which you'd think would be a more uphill task than Superman, but they managed it.

[Frontier]

IDK, it depends on the fan. Something has just seemed off with Superman for a while that enough people seem to picking up on it. The empty, generic hope speeches or making him a messianic archetype, but not really having him be enough of a cool, charismatic man of action otherwise. When he's not standing for hope or whatever, he's either being brainwashed/turned evil or just generically saves the world from big generic disasters.

The MCU made Cap cool to the modern generation, which you'd think would be a more uphill task than Superman, but they managed it.

I mean, I liked Cap before he was cool, so I'm probably not the right person to be being the counterpoint on this .

But I also feel people undervalue or just don't pay attention enough to the good depictions/showings of Superman.

[Ropeburn]

Older heroes knocking up women and letting them raise the child alone until the child is old enough to fight crime.

Gods being beaten by Demi-Gods, Kryptonians or Humans. Demi-Gods being beaten by Kryptonians or Humans. There should be a reason they are called Gods.

Amazons getting killed on a large scale. They have trained for thousands of years. Lady Shiva should get her ass kicked by the weakest Amazon.

BatGod. Although being the greatest Detective, he's human, he's rich, he's determined. That's it.

New comic writer equals new status quo, new team members, new everything. If you can't make your mark by keeping what the last person did you are not a good writer.

A powerful blast that knocks out an entire team but no one is dead. If a giant blast knocks out Superman then that means Black Canary, Green Arrow, Batman and Hawkman are dead.

That anyone in the DC Universe would still be (insert religion) after seeing Greek Gods in person. Same in MCU, they see Thor everyday.

That you could get insurance living in Metropolis, Gotham City or Coast City. You are on your own.

That you could get fired from running late in Metropolis, Gotham City or Coast City. "Where is Kent???" "Probably trapped under some rubble chief." I think you'd get a bonus for making it on time for six months.

[Agent Z]

Gods being beaten by Demi-Gods, Kryptonians or Humans. Demi-Gods being beaten by Kryptonians or Humans. There should be a reason they are called Gods.

In fairness, the demigods beating up gods thing does have some precedent in the myths with people like Heracles.
Hawkman are dead.

That anyone in the DC Universe would still be (insert religion) after seeing Greek Gods in person. Same in MCU, they see Thor everyday.

Would that really make them convert? If anything, that would only strengthen their faith. Christians have indisputable proof that god exists thanks to guys like Spectre and Zauriel.

[Ra-El]

In fairness, the demigods beating up gods thing does have some precedent in the myths with people like Heracles.
Hawkman are dead.



Would that really make them convert? If anything, that would only strengthen their faith. Christians have indisputable proof that god exists thanks to guys like Spectre and Zauriel.

Yeah, christians would just say the greek gods are demons and be done with it.

[Mistah K88]

How many times has Gotham been semi destroyed/taken over? Even in No Man's Land it made little to no sense. Gotham having problems of THAT scale stretches the suspension of disbelief enough by itself...but it gets MORE unbelievable with a shared universe.

Redeeming villains but never calling them out (if they are popular). Heroes get more flack in universe if they do something morally ambiguous...(heck even if it isn't their fault they get called out). The fact that we can be in the same universe where someone will call someone like Superman out for not saving a cancer patient when he was off universe, but they have no qualms with Harley actively participating in Joker's schemes?

Every villain having an abusive past. If I have to hear one more backstory where the villain had abusive parents or something I'll scream.

Bat characters getting the jump on EVERYONE, whether it's Batman, Harley, or another bat related character, they punch above their weight class WAY too often.

Batman not trusting his friends (whether it's the Justice League or even his own Bat family...this cliché happens far too often.)

Evil Superman...With there being evil Kryptonians already, there's LITERALLY no reason for Clark to be the target of the evil stick.

[Tzigone]

That you could get insurance living in Metropolis, Gotham City or Coast City. You are on your own.

Thanks for the laugh. Sadly, I actually tried to think about the knock-on economic effects of constant rebuilding and how effected the job market, wage rates, etc. Then I just decided to ignore it for the most part for my headcanon.

How many times has Gotham been semi destroyed/taken over? Even in No Man's Land it made little to no sense. Gotham having problems of THAT scale stretches the suspension of disbelief enough by itself...but it gets MORE unbelievable with a shared universe.

Absolutely. It's such a popular story, but I could never get past the premise. And how very bad it made Bruce and other heroes look.

Every villain having an abusive past. If I have to hear one more backstory where the villain had abusive parents or something I'll scream.

Agreed.

Bat characters getting the jump on EVERYONE, whether it's Batman, Harley, or another bat related character, they punch above their weight class WAY too often.

Definitely an issue. There's a certain degree of having the humans (non-powered) win, but sometimes we see them doing things no human can do. And I do kinda miss a time when four or five ordinary thugs could take Batman down. At least when plot demanded it.

Batman not trusting his friends (whether it's the Justice League or even his own Bat family...this cliché happens far too often.)

Absolutely. He doesn't even seem to regard most of them as friends, anymore. I miss when he did trust them. Even liked most of them - not he treats a good many with disdain fairly often. What's worse to me is how often that distrust is merited. I feel like other characters are made bad to make him look good sometimes.