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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member The Kid's Avatar
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    I agree, just from a meta standpoint, rebooting the state of the galaxy just so you can rehash the same rebel vs. Empire storyline was so intellectually lazy

  2. #47
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    LFL actually tried very hard to construct a story to justify the Empire collapsing one year after ROTJ, using a general uprising, multiple major campaigns, and even more cases of the Empire “self-destructing”, with Operation Cinder and Rax’s coup/deliberate attempts to destroy vast portions of the Imperial Fleet.

    I just wish they’d been as imaginative and logistically self-aware when it came to the Galaxy after the Empire. I really don’t mind the idea of the Republic struggling to govern afterwards, or of being hugely less militarized and centralized than the Empire, since that’s a more intelligent and dramatic issue to have. What I hate is having the GFFA at large be so docile and apathetic that LFL clearly wanted the FO treated a de facto refunded Empire - that’s both boring and depressingly disappointing, not to mention aggravatingly small minded for the Galaxy.


    I mean, how many hundreds-of-mil*******to-tens-of-billions of Galactic Civil War Veterans, Ex-Imperial Slaves, and victims of Imperial atrocities are still hanging around and likely still in positions of power? And they have no reaction to a resurgent Imperial state?

    Not to mention it did not help to have TLJ make the First Order a giant collection of idiots compared to what they were in TFA.

    The sum total impact of both was to take a vulnerable and not very imaginative situation from TFA, and make it twice as banal, boring, and apathetic. The Galaxy lacked both the desire and the basic intelligence to defeat a bunch of morons who couldn’t handle a small flotilla of fleeing ships without massive casualties.

    TLJ was trying to deconstruct then reconstruct the Galactic conflict, but it really just made me wonder if the Galaxy deserved to be saved if it was so pathetic.
    We also have to remember that the Empire didn't have a very firm grasp on many things over the 2 decades, even before RO they had to explain the case to the senate and hide the Death Star's construction. This is why they focused so hard on the Death Star and only after that did the Emperor disband the senate. So the opposition force is always there and their reign was not so firm. Not to say many of the moffs have their own ambition. The Empire was never that firm on its control.

    Also it's not a small number that they lost in the 2 Death Stars.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    They already have a huge military that could cause serious threat to the Empire, forcing them to make another Death Star and finally beat the Empire. Along with a very strong lead to fight for decades.

    I don't think it's the same with the Empire, it's like you can make strong nation like US and Britain without turning them into Nazi Germany or USSR. Even the old EU have something like that. Also a Galactic Republic being obliterated by SK base like that was not even about "strong" or "weak", it's about "is that Republic even a functional thing?"
    The Rebel fleet was always portrayed as being tiny and insignificant compared to the Imperial forces, which is why they always resorted to hit and run tactics. The only way the Republic could have maintained any sort of significant military presence would be to co-opt the former Imperial soldiers into their own ranks, something that is obviously fraught with extreme risk. And yeah, it's possible to have a strong government with a strong military without turning into a totalitarian dictatorship, but in case you never learned the history of the UK or US, both countries only had any semblance of freedom or democracy within their "core" territories, while maintaining large colonial empires where their military presence and heavy handed rule was indistinguishable from that of any other empire. It's not so much that the destruction of Hosnian was something that a functioning government would have been unable to recover from, but that the New Republic was already having trouble asserting its authority or maintaining the legitimacy of its rule outside of the immediate core worlds, something we've seen in the Mandalorian. The elimination of their leadership was just a signal that the Republic was too weak and dysfunctional to defend itself and whatever semblance of control they had would have quickly collapsed.

  4. #49
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOn View Post
    The Rebel fleet was always portrayed as being tiny and insignificant compared to the Imperial forces, which is why they always resorted to hit and run tactics. The only way the Republic could have maintained any sort of significant military presence would be to co-opt the former Imperial soldiers into their own ranks, something that is obviously fraught with extreme risk. And yeah, it's possible to have a strong government with a strong military without turning into a totalitarian dictatorship, but in case you never learned the history of the UK or US, both countries only had any semblance of freedom or democracy within their "core" territories, while maintaining large colonial empires where their military presence and heavy handed rule was indistinguishable from that of any other empire. It's not so much that the destruction of Hosnian was something that a functioning government would have been unable to recover from, but that the New Republic was already having trouble asserting its authority or maintaining the legitimacy of its rule outside of the immediate core worlds, something we've seen in the Mandalorian. The elimination of their leadership was just a signal that the Republic was too weak and dysfunctional to defend itself and whatever semblance of control they had would have quickly collapsed.
    Not really, they were able to assemble a full scale assault in EP6 against the main fleet of the Imperial Navy and pretty much destroyed the fleet plus the Death Star II.

    Yeah so what? The new Republic can force some harsh rules or demand trade, it's nowhere close to the Galactic Empire. Also we don't have to go with these details, the Republic can and should recover from a strike like that. It's understandable that some systems didn't go along and got lost. But it makes 0 sense that the whole Republic presence is gone from the galaxy and nothing other than those rebels have left.

  5. #50

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    Nothing of the world building in the sequels makes any sense. We have pretty much no info from the movies and have to rely on some crappy visual guides that deliver mostly one liners.

    The Galactic Empire is defeated within one year after Endor. (Sure they lost the Nr1 + Nr2, the DS II, the Executor and a dozen SD´s - however 99%+ of the Imperial Army and Navy is still intact. And while there certainly was infighting between various imperial factions, the Rebellion had sustained massive losses at Endor as well. In the old EU, Thrawns Empire still controlled 1/4 of the Galaxy, five years after Endor.

    Regarless, one year after Endor the Empire is done for and the most fanatic Imperials flee to the Unknown Regions where they build a mini-Empire within just 29 years. Wait I though that by 5 ABY most of the Empire was defeated. If only some 5000 ships with a crew of 10 000 each fled to the Unknown Regions, thats just 50 Million imperials, far to few to build a mini Empire within two Generations. And if some 100 000 ships with a Billion Imperials fled to the Unknown Regions, then why did they flee in the first place? They still had 100 000 ships left.

    Regarless,once the Imperials are gone the New Republic starts to demilitarise almost immediately for reasons. This leads to the creation of the "Resistance" to combat the rising First Order threat that for some reason is completely ignored by the rest of the Galaxy. When Starkiller Base destroyed the Hosnian system, a majority of the New Republic fleet is destroyed as well, leaving the Resistance as the only obstacle to First Order rule. Even after the destruction of Starkiller Base, all the countless thousands New Republic systems surrender before the First Order because they are afraid. Out of the countless thousands of star systems not even 2 have their own defense fleet. And out of the hundreds? thousands? of New Republic warships, some 99%+ were all parked in the Hosnian System....

    Realistically, the New Republic should have had at least hundreds of warships left after the Hosnian catastrophe, there is no way that close to the entire fleet was parked in just this one system.
    Realistically, at least dozens of systems should have had their own defense fleet after the things they experienced with the Empire.
    Realistically, the entire Galaxy should have been super pissed at the First Order, especially after Starkiller Base was destroyed.
    Realistically, there should have been no way for the First Order to be a threat even for a demilitarised New Republic.

    But hey, Resistance sounds like Rebellion. First Order sounds similar to Empire. Nostalgia people. Ignore the logic holes that could swallow up a Death Star, just give us your money.
    Last edited by Celestialbeyonder; 12-14-2020 at 10:40 AM.

  6. #51
    Ultimate Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    Kind of curious how the Republic would have dealt with the Confederacy had the Clone army not arrived in time, although the film does mention the Republic is considering creating a military that Padme and others oppose (It's just kind of convenient they found an instant one).


    Then again the Confederacy/Seperatists didn't really seem set on invading, more like holding the Republic/Jedi at blasterpoint with their droid armies to agree to their terms of secession or something like that.
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  7. #52
    Spectacular Member macjr33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Kid View Post
    I agree, just from a meta standpoint, rebooting the state of the galaxy just so you can rehash the same rebel vs. Empire storyline was so intellectually lazy
    I agree with this 100%, I think Disney wanted to have their cake and eat it too in terms of leveraging the old legacy characters, while being able to introduce new characters which had mixed results at best (personally I don't think it worked at all). To me, by rebooting everything it undermines everything that the legacy characters fought as well as undermines the very essence of what Star Wars is about, which is hope.

    Lucas wanted to create a modern mythology. You don't have to peel back that much to see everything that influenced Lucas from Greek mythology, King Arthur, Campbell's The Hero's Journey, to classic sci-fi serials, to Akira Kurosawa samurai films, it's all been well written about. Star Wars is a fairy tale in space. People often forget the context of when Star Wars came out. In 1977, the shadow of Vietnam and Nixon still loomed large over the US. Cinema itself was taking a much darker, gritter turn as well. What made Star Wars so special (among other reasons) was that it was a callback to those classic stories that captured our imagination as kids (because Lucas himself based it a lot on what inspired him in his youth). Classic good against evil. It was an escape for people to a "galaxy far far away".

    This is why I get annoyed when people start trying to infuse "realism" into Star Wars because that was never the point of it in the first place. So when things like war profiteering are discussed in The Last Jedi or, even in the last episode of The Mandalorian (which I do love) when Bill Burr's character says it doesn't matter who is in charge to me isn't really the point of Star Wars.

    As for the discussion on the New Republic demilitarizing, sure they can write whatever reason they want to with regards to why they did it as they needed to in order to "reboot" to the Rebels vs. Empire dynamic; however, story wise it makes zero sense. Most of the leaders of the Rebel Alliance were around or leaders themselves in the Old Republic. There is no way they would demilitarize especially without the Jedi to protect the New Republic. At least you can understand why the Old Republic had no military because they had the Jedi and the Republic had stood for over a 1,000 years.

    What Disney should have done was to recast Luke, Leia and Han and do a modern interpretation of the Thrawn trilogy and most everyone would have been happy.

  8. #53
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celestialbeyonder View Post
    Nothing of the world building in the sequels makes any sense. We have pretty much no info from the movies and have to rely on some crappy visual guides that deliver mostly one liners.

    The Galactic Empire is defeated within one year after Endor. (Sure they lost the Nr1 + Nr2, the DS II, the Executor and a dozen SD´s - however 99%+ of the Imperial Army and Navy is still intact. And while there certainly was infighting between various imperial factions, the Rebellion had sustained massive losses at Endor as well. In the old EU, Thrawns Empire still controlled 1/4 of the Galaxy, five years after Endor.

    Regarless, one year after Endor the Empire is done for and the most fanatic Imperials flee to the Unknown Regions where they build a mini-Empire within just 29 years. Wait I though that by 5 ABY most of the Empire was defeated. If only some 5000 ships with a crew of 10 000 each fled to the Unknown Regions, thats just 50 Million imperials, far to few to build a mini Empire within two Generations. And if some 100 000 ships with a Billion Imperials fled to the Unknown Regions, then why did they flee in the first place? They still had 100 000 ships left.

    Regarless,once the Imperials are gone the New Republic starts to demilitarise almost immediately for reasons. This leads to the creation of the "Resistance" to combat the rising First Order threat that for some reason is completely ignored by the rest of the Galaxy. When Starkiller Base destroyed the Hosnian system, a majority of the New Republic fleet is destroyed as well, leaving the Resistance as the only obstacle to First Order rule. Even after the destruction of Starkiller Base, all the countless thousands New Republic systems surrender before the First Order because they are afraid. Out of the countless thousands of star systems not even 2 have their own defense fleet. And out of the hundreds? thousands? of New Republic warships, some 99%+ were all parked in the Hosnian System....

    Realistically, the New Republic should have had at least hundreds of warships left after the Hosnian catastrophe, there is no way that close to the entire fleet was parked in just this one system.
    Realistically, at least dozens of systems should have had their own defense fleet after the things they experienced with the Empire.
    Realistically, the entire Galaxy should have been super pissed at the First Order, especially after Starkiller Base was destroyed.
    Realistically, there should have been no way for the First Order to be a threat even for a demilitarised New Republic.

    But hey, Resistance sounds like Rebellion. First Order sounds similar to Empire. Nostalgia people. Ignore the logic holes that could swallow up a Death Star, just give us your money.
    That sums up what is wrong with post Jedi Star Wars in a nutshell. It would have made much more sense to have the Empire still around and controlling at least a chunk of the galaxy and the New Republic being in a cold war type situation with them. To have the Empire completely fall apart in just a couple years makes no sense. Same with the new Republic not having some form of a fleet to help stabalize a galaxy that had to have been total chaos after the Empire fell. It honestly would have made more sense for the galaxy to split into smaller groups like over in Star Trek where you have a few big powers and then a bunch of independant powers not part of the Empire or New Republic who are sick of both of them and set up on their own.

  9. #54
    BANNED Starter Set's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    That sums up what is wrong with post Jedi Star Wars in a nutshell. It would have made much more sense to have the Empire still around and controlling at least a chunk of the galaxy and the New Republic being in a cold war type situation with them
    We used to have that, till Disney wiped it all out.

  10. #55

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    The worst part is that when I saw the movies I had to dig for this information because the movies leave you completely in the dark about what is happening in - Universe. This means that Disney had time to come up with explanations that would have made at least some sense. Like a clone/droid Armada secretly built by the FO that is so overwhelming that it occupies 110% of NR resources and this is the reason why no one came to help the Resistance in TLJ. And this is the reason why the Resistance is the only faction capable of taking the fight to the FO because the rest of the Galaxy is busy defending. Or a virus, or infiltration - just something other than:
    The entire NR fleet gets destroyed in one strike and all other systems are so afraid that they surrender en masse although Starkiller base has just been destroyed.

    And lets not even start with ROS. While no one came to help in TLJ, suddenly 100 000 ships pop up out of nowhere and the FO gets beaten like nothing. Problem is that even with their occupation fleet wrecked, the FO hasnt lost a single planet of its supposed vast territory and can retry to conquer the Galaxy in another 20 years.....
    Last edited by Celestialbeyonder; 12-17-2020 at 09:55 AM.

  11. #56
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starter Set View Post
    We used to have that, till Disney wiped it all out.
    The old EU went too far to another direction, I hope there is a middle point.

  12. #57
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    I don't have a problem with the concept that the new republic is a mess after the return of the Jedi. I mean France was a mess after WW1. I just had a problem with how they told the story.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by inisideguy View Post
    I don't have a problem with the concept that the new republic is a mess after the return of the Jedi. I mean France was a mess after WW1. I just had a problem with how they told the story.
    Very much this.

    Putting the heroic faction on the back foot and making them underdogs is completely plausible.

    Insisting there’s not even enough grassroots resistance to slow down the First Order beyond a few weeks (as stated in TLJ) is laughably stupid, and a major missed opportunity.
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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Very much this.

    Putting the heroic faction on the back foot and making them underdogs is completely plausible.

    Insisting there’s not even enough grassroots resistance to slow down the First Order beyond a few weeks (as stated in TLJ) is laughably stupid, and a major missed opportunity.
    Yea I think the idea is fine. Like I said France after WW1,even the USA after the revolution we were getting our clocks cleaned in the war of 1812 the British burned the White House down. Its just they threw you into this world with a whole new menace it wasn't the Germans after WW1 or the British after the revolution. It was like cos player guys with incredible amounts of equipment and not explanations for anything. And I know Star Wars does tend to throw you into the middle of a story. But in this case especially with legacy characters running around we just needed more info. That being said starting with the concept the the new republic is a mess, I am not sure how I would have written another story. I am pretty sure I wouldn't have just done a rerun of the empire, but a more grass roots almost terrorist organization led by a dark force guy or guys, striking at them. Almost like a Hydra concept?

  15. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by inisideguy View Post
    I don't have a problem with the concept that the new republic is a mess after the return of the Jedi. I mean France was a mess after WW1. I just had a problem with how they told the story.
    Yet despite beeing a mess France was still superior to Germany in military terms until 1937/38 and no easy foe even in 1940. Meanwhile a few percent of the Empire that fled to the unknown regions and had to start pretty much from scratch, mutate into a Galaxy conquering juggernaut 30 years later, despite having just 5 or 10% of the resources/manpower of the Galactic Empire.

    Even if 90% of the New Republic Fleet had been destroyed at the Hosnian System, the NR should still have had hundreds of ships left. It doesnt make ANY sense that the NR just crumbles/capitulates out of fear, especially after the FO just lost its Starkiller Base super weapon and like 2 days later the Supermacy and 15 star destroyers. As seen in TROS there were thousands of ships out there capable of fighting and it doesnt make any sence for them to keep low after the FO just sustained heavy defeats only for them to show up during TROS.

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