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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think there's something to be said for that kind of loyalty and dedication, especially when Alfred basically drops everything to be there and take over for Bruce, although these books tend to not leave any room for a life outside the costumed heroics.

    I mean, Alfred sometimes has better relationships with the family than Bruce does, so I don't necessarily view them as just an extension of his loyalty to Bruce.
    I'd feel better about the loyalty if it was two-way, but I don't see that, most of the time. It's very much Alfred serves Bruce. I think the first time it really bothered me was reading old issues when he leaves Bruce for Bruce's own good, he said (after Gordon got shot). What does he do - go work for Tim. Oh, I get it's too keep him in the comics. But if you actually think about it, it's so problematic. There's nowhere else for him to go? No interests to pursue? Nothing else in his life but serving? Serve and only serve? And it's not like Jack Drake is paying him then.

    I do see his relationship with the others that way - all perception, of course. At the very least, they matter less than Bruce. His relationship with them may be better, but he generally expects them to do what's best for Bruce. The Bruce-amnesia-story particularly gets it for me. But I'm particularly salty about lots of their family dynamics, and Alfred is definitely not exempt from that for me. And it ties in so much with Bruce's increasing emotional damage for me, too. Partly coincidental, just on the timing of the changes making him Bruce's guardian and Bruce's psche changing. But other times, I can see action and attitudes that I think contribute. Once the idea is your head, you see it everywhere (like noticing cars that look just like the one you bought that you never noticed before you had a reason to think of that car model in particular).

  2. #17
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I'd feel better about the loyalty if it was two-way, but I don't see that, most of the time. It's very much Alfred serves Bruce. I think the first time it really bothered me was reading old issues when he leaves Bruce for Bruce's own good, he said (after Gordon got shot). What does he do - go work for Tim. Oh, I get it's too keep him in the comics. But if you actually think about it, it's so problematic. There's nowhere else for him to go? No interests to pursue? Nothing else in his life but serving? Serve and only serve? And it's not like Jack Drake is paying him then.

    I do see his relationship with the others that way - all perception, of course. At the very least, they matter less than Bruce. His relationship with them may be better, but he generally expects them to do what's best for Bruce. The Bruce-amnesia-story particularly gets it for me. But I'm particularly salty about lots of their family dynamics, and Alfred is definitely not exempt from that for me. And it ties in so much with Bruce's increasing emotional damage for me, too. Partly coincidental, just on the timing of the changes making him Bruce's guardian and Bruce's psche changing. But other times, I can see action and attitudes that I think contribute. Once the idea is your head, you see it everywhere (like noticing cars that look just like the one you bought that you never noticed before you had a reason to think of that car model in particular).
    I feel like if Bruce needed to show dedication to Alfred, he would.

    I remember a time in Post-Crisis where Bruce went way out of his way, even to the extent of helping bad guys, to prevent Alfred from being framed for a crime he didn't commit, and there was that Tom Taylor Father's day annual that came out.

    And, I dunno, I don't think caring about Bruce means he cares about the rest any less. He wants what's best for all of them at the end of the day. I don't think the idea that he cares about them only as an extension of Bruce fits his character.

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I remember a time in Post-Crisis where Bruce went way out of his way, even to the extent of helping bad guys, to prevent Alfred from being framed for a crime he didn't commit, and there was that Tom Taylor Father's day annual that came out.
    I feel like going out of his way to prevent an innocent person (any innocent person) from being framed is in the job description for a hero. Though I admit, I do not know that particular story.

    And, I dunno, I don't think caring about Bruce means he cares about the rest any less. He wants what's best for all of them at the end of the day.
    Just a difference in perception, I guess. For me, when it comes down to what's best for Bruce or what's best for any of the
    others (including the then-10 year old), Alfred chooses what's best for Bruce (or what he thinks is best for Bruce). I'm sure their are examples that go both ways, but these are the ones that hold weight for me. Negative actions always weight more heavily for me - takes 5 or more good ones to make up for 1 bad one, you know?

    What can I say, I acknowledge by biases in tending to see family dynamics poorly there. And my bias is disliking an ongoing (for decades) personal relationship where one is meant to the servant and the other the served. If it was just a job, that would be fine. If it was a caregiver to a child or an adult who needed one, then okay, though still hard on a caregiver's mental health. But an ongoing adult relationship where person is entirely focused around another (who is not similarly focused around them) that also has a servant-role for one. It just rubs me the wrong way. Like Bruce's life becomes Alfred's whole life. Not a healthy way to be for me. And I liked them more back when they were healthier.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 10-22-2020 at 02:21 PM.

  4. #19
    Mighty Member Jman27's Avatar
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    or he just stays dead this time
    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

    "I need a reason to take the mask off."-Peter Parker

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    I think we all just agree it was a dumb idea and just pretend he never died and move on.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Fergus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I'm still not really sure how that death happened. Alfred made everyone think it was okay? Thomas manipulated him? It was technically a suicide?
    It was suicide according to the recording Alfred left in issue 83.

    I think he should be left dead. Don't get why Alfred is so beloved or seen as a positive father figure. He isn't.

  7. #22
    Mighty Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    It was suicide according to the recording Alfred left in issue 83.

    I think he should be left dead. Don't get why Alfred is so beloved or seen as a positive father figure. He isn't.
    Alfred is....a mixed bag for me. On one hand, he's not really the saintly patriarchal figured to the Batfamily that he's made out to be. And his devotion to Bruce can be very...problematic at times. But on the other hand....not having him around just doesn't feel right. I'd prefer he be brought back and open up the chance for his shortcomings to be acknowledged, rather than stay dead and eventually even forgotten.

    On the low, he's just as bad as, if not worse, than Bruce. But he's just so damn good at hiding it that I can't bring myself to hate him.

  8. #23
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I feel like going out of his way to prevent an innocent person (any innocent person) from being framed is in the job description for a hero. Though I admit, I do not know that particular story.
    The story in question makes it very clear how personally invested Bruce is in making sure nothing happens to Alfred.
    Just a difference in perception, I guess. For me, when it comes down to what's best for Bruce or what's best for any of the
    others (including the then-10 year old), Alfred chooses what's best for Bruce (or what he thinks is best for Bruce). I'm sure their are examples that go both ways, but these are the ones that hold weight for me. Negative actions always weight more heavily for me - takes 5 or more good ones to make up for 1 bad one, you know?
    I've never seen Alfred suggest something to help Bruce that would come at someone's expense and I think he would equally call out Bruce if he was being unfair to someone in the Batfamily. At least from what I've read.

    But I tend to look more at the positive than the negative.
    What can I say, I acknowledge by biases in tending to see family dynamics poorly there. And my bias is disliking an ongoing (for decades) personal relationship where one is meant to the servant and the other the served. If it was just a job, that would be fine. If it was a caregiver to a child or an adult who needed one, then okay, though still hard on a caregiver's mental health. But an ongoing adult relationship where person is entirely focused around another (who is not similarly focused around them) that also has a servant-role for one. It just rubs me the wrong way. Like Bruce's life becomes Alfred's whole life. Not a healthy way to be for me. And I liked them more back when they were healthier.
    But I see the appeal as being a master/servant bond that goes far beyond what would expected of said relationship. In both regards.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fergus View Post
    I think he should be left dead. Don't get why Alfred is so beloved or seen as a positive father figure. He isn't.
    I don't think it's that hard to believe, but I guess I also view Alfred pretty positively so I'm probably biased.

  9. #24
    Mighty Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I've never seen Alfred suggest something to help Bruce that would come at someone's expense.
    My memory's a bit hazy on that short period but didn't he tell Damian to stay away during Bruce's amnesia phase? Because Bruce was happy now and didn't need a reminder of his life as Batman? Even if that reminder was his ten year old son?

  10. #25
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Don't you guys remember We Are Robin?

  11. #26
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Don't you guys remember We Are Robin?
    Everyday of my life, why?
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  12. #27
    Mighty Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Don't you guys remember We Are Robin?
    I try not to.

  13. #28
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    He kept anything Batman away from Bruce when he lost his memory, even his family, so Bruce can have the normal life he dreamed for him. While at the same time was supplying kids on the street with equipment and encouraging them to go play Robin. So ya, Al did some messed up stuff.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 10-22-2020 at 07:32 PM.

  14. #29
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    My prediction: Alfred never truly died & what Damian saw was a fear gas induced hallucination. Instead he was abducted by Thomas, Bane or whoever and replaced with a body double. Bruce never thoroughly verified it was actually him because he was to traumatized by the thought of his pops killing his dad.

  15. #30
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    He kept anything Batman away from Bruce when he lost his memory, even his family, so Bruce can have the normal life he dreamed for him. While at the same time was supplying kids on the street with equipment and encouraging them to go play Robin. So ya, Al did some messed up stuff.
    Yeah, I kind of try and forget that happened.

    I think part of it was that Snyder's Alfred was always kind of...off? At least in the sense he was always fretting over and stumbling over Bruce compared to before. That WAR stuff never made any sense.

    Of course Snyder didn't want to write Damian so that was going to be an issue one way or another.

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