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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Because Kathy wasn't Batwoman in the new universe, Bette lost her motivation to be a hero, so Wolfman and Perez substituted it for the Robin fangirl.
    It was a ghastly motivation. Mind you, Karen initially became Bumblebee to help her boyfriend look more impressive. But at least that was a boyfriend, not a celebrity crush. And it made her working with Ray in the YJ cartoon funnier, since he became The Atom to help his girlfriend look more impressive (she said she'd only marry him after she made a success of her career).

    Can't say I had much feeling for Bette even before that, though. But no feeling is better that cringing. I recently thought that version of Bette dating with Booster Gold 1980s Booster Gold would be kinda fun.

    It wasn't until the Beast Boy miniseries that she started to recover.
    I liked her pretty well there. Hated Gar's never-before-mentioned cousin showing up because it really doesn't work with his backstory (at least his original backstory, it may have changed by then). I mean, it pretty much made as little sense as Dick having an aunt Harriet.

    And then Batwoman 2011 happened and all her development went out the window just so she could be a little mini-Kate
    Haven't read it (avoided pre-Rebirth New 52 for the most part). I did think she sounded too much like a copy-Kate. But then, becoming Batgirl originally was copying Kathy. I do feel like removing the original familial relationship left Bette sort of adrift and without a place, and that it doesn't really transfer well to Kate once they made Kate and Bruce related (which I would have preferred not happen).

    I'd like a new origin story for her, a good one. But what would it be? What age would she be when debuting? Why? In what city. Thought about it for headcanon reboot, but come up with no good idea. But I guess it's off-topic for this thread.

  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    ...I'm not sure how Bumblebee and Betty Kane relate to each other... If anything the fact that DC wants to erase any Batgirl who isn't Barbara Gordon is more of a correlation to Bette's situation.
    Pretty much this
    Also I doubt they hate her. I think they simply don't care and have no use for her, with writers already focusing on their preferred Batfam member

  3. #18
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    Bumble Bee also went through an era of neglect and lapse to obscurity.
    And with a dearth of characters of color, as well as self made female characters, who forged their own identity, (not legacy), fans always championed for her return to more prominence, so where and when it happens it should be celebrated.

    Instead of couching this as an arbitrary vs Bumble-Bee thread, which doesn't help.
    Could have just done a - celebrate Bette Kane thread.
    Sad it was framed this way.
    Last edited by Güicho; 10-24-2020 at 12:58 PM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Barely. Betty was there for only 3 issues. At the very end. For a it-never-happened Titans West spinoff (just one story). They were only in the same place in the final issue (from what I can tell, just skimming) and had no substantive interaction.

    Really, for the 1960s-1990s, Bette/Betty showed up like half a dozen times a decade, as best I can tell.
    That's not that different for Bumble Bee, she was in titans for maybe 5 issues more, and iirc didn't got much focus.

    And most of her appearances after that were just cameos apart from the Rebirth Titans and maybe her short stint on Doom Patrol (I never read that so I don't know how big her role was there).

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    That's not that different for Bumble Bee, she was in titans for maybe 5 issues more, and iirc didn't got much focus.

    And most of her appearances after that were just cameos apart from the Rebirth Titans and maybe her short stint on Doom Patrol (I never read that so I don't know how big her role was there).
    I was saying they weren't in it together - or barely so, and there was no reason for them to be connected or reason for them to be compared to each other. I stand by that opinion.

  6. #21
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    As a Bette fan, it’s because Gotham vigilantes are a dime a dozen.

    Bumblebee is not only DC’s first black superheroine (years before Vixen).

    She’s a scientist. Only Titan that is a parallel to JLA’s Atom (Molecule is long dead and forgotten).

  7. #22
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    What does Bumblebee have to do with Bette not getting any love?

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    What does Bumblebee have to do with Bette not getting any love?
    The OP is bringing it up, because they both ended up obscure Titans West background characters during the most popular Teen Titans run in the 80s and very early 90s.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukiakari1203 View Post
    we do need more diversity but fun fact, all 3 future Batgirls are black
    That’s nice but will we ever get to that future of diversity, nah we always come back to earth prime Caucasian so it doesn’t really matter

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    It was a ghastly motivation. Mind you, Karen initially became Bumblebee to help her boyfriend look more impressive. But at least that was a boyfriend, not a celebrity crush. And it made her working with Ray in the YJ cartoon funnier, since he became The Atom to help his girlfriend look more impressive (she said she'd only marry him after she made a success of her career).

    Can't say I had much feeling for Bette even before that, though. But no feeling is better that cringing. I recently thought that version of Bette dating with Booster Gold 1980s Booster Gold would be kinda fun.

    I liked her pretty well there. Hated Gar's never-before-mentioned cousin showing up because it really doesn't work with his backstory (at least his original backstory, it may have changed by then). I mean, it pretty much made as little sense as Dick having an aunt Harriet.

    Haven't read it (avoided pre-Rebirth New 52 for the most part). I did think she sounded too much like a copy-Kate. But then, becoming Batgirl originally was copying Kathy. I do feel like removing the original familial relationship left Bette sort of adrift and without a place, and that it doesn't really transfer well to Kate once they made Kate and Bruce related (which I would have preferred not happen).

    I'd like a new origin story for her, a good one. But what would it be? What age would she be when debuting? Why? In what city. Thought about it for headcanon reboot, but come up with no good idea. But I guess it's off-topic for this thread.
    Here's my pitch for her origin. Bette is born William Kane and his girlfriend in Malibu, California. She was accidental and her parents were pretty neglectful sending her to boarding schools and in the summers sending her to Gotham to spend time with Nathan Kane. When Betty's 11, Nathan marries Kathy and Betty latches onto her because Kathy acts like a mother to her. Kathy recommends to Betty's parents that she attend St. Hadrian's School for Girls. Betty idolizing Batwoman starts making plans to become Bat-Girl. Nathan dies and Betty discovers her aunt's secret. She requests to be her sidekick. Kathy having plotted to eventually recruit Betty to Spyral, agrees. Betty is Bat-Girl for two perfect years before everything shatters. Kathy fakes her death and abandons Betty who drops out of St Hadrian's afterward. Betty starts going by Bette because Betty is what Kathy called her. She emancipates herself, gets her GED, and moves to LA where she enrolls in UCLA studying sports medicine. Bette also starts to focus on tennis. She has no intention of being a hero again. She tries out for the Olympics and doesn't make the cut. Then she sees that Gotham has a new Batgirl. Bette's furious that Bruce didn't bother to tell her that someone had taken her identity decides to don a costume again. Being inspired by the Titans, Bette starts Titans West. It falls apart after a year. Bette deciding to rebrand herself to divorce herself from Batwoman and Gotham as a whole decides on Flamebird after being told the story by Clark when she was younger. She graduates from UCLA and goes to med school, hoping to become a physical therapist. After getting fed up with not being taken seriously, Bette creates a new costume and starts living with Gar. They try to bring back Titians West but it fails. She then sees that there's a new Batwoman in Gotham. Bette deduces that it's Kate and moves to Gotham wanting to start fresh. And then Batwoman 2011 happens minus Bette becoming Hawkfire. After helping Kate, Bette decides to go solo and then Dick invites her to move to Bludhaven with him because he wants to start fresh there. Bette agrees and Bludhaven has a Nightwing and Flamebird.

    Thoughts?
    "Everything doesn't have to be about fear. There's room in our line of work for hope, too"- Stephanie Brown, Batgirl Vol 3 #5

    "Quit? Like hell I will"- Bette Kane, Beast Boy #3

  11. #26
    Incredible Member OopsIdiditagain's Avatar
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    If DC was smart they'd market her as the Serena Van Der Woodson(Gossip Girl) of Gotham. Bette likes the spotlight and we already have too many angsty Batfamily members.
    OP characters make me itch

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Güicho View Post
    Bumble Bee also went through an era of neglect and lapse to obscurity.
    And with a dearth of characters of color, as well as self made female characters, who forged their own identity, (not legacy), fans always championed for her return to more prominence, so where and when it happens it should be celebrated.

    Instead of couching this as an arbitrary vs Bumble-Bee thread, which doesn't help.
    Could have just done a - celebrate Bette Kane thread.
    Sad it was framed this way.
    I'm sorry. It wasn't my intention to frame it that way. I 'll try to be more clear but I didn't expect the answers and talk here, so I'm gratified, even, if some people nail it on the head. She appeared to little to make an impact on more people.

    Bumble Bee was used differently and had more stories to be in and more characters to interact with. In the Silver age Betty/e only interacted with Robin and the Batfamily of the era.
    Post COIE, late '80s into the '90s, her interactions were related to the Robin groupie and then with Beast Boy.

    I don't think of her as a mini-Kate, in the original Batwoman volume, but perhaps an object lesson, that even certain privilege doesn't make up for the sheer grit and determination of someone like Kate.
    While i believe there is a wealth of back-story that could be wove around Bette, Kate, the Kanes or the Waynes, she served the role of the anti-Dynamic Duo, with Batwoman.

    Batwoman was the anti Batman, in a way, thus her teamup with Bette is similar.

    I just wish the series didn't change that creative team, maybe something else would have emerged with Bette.
    ~ Oberon ~
    Comic-book reading Witch and Pagan since 1970
    I came for Kate, I stayed for Bette Love Fantastic Four, Namor, Batwoman, Dr.Strange.... i love them all

  13. #28
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    What does Bumblebee have to do with Bette not getting any love?
    I noticed that Bumble Bee was getting involved in a cartoon or DC production, linked to her time with Teen Titans. she was a fellow Titan who doesnt' get lost in the mire;.
    ~ Oberon ~
    Comic-book reading Witch and Pagan since 1970
    I came for Kate, I stayed for Bette Love Fantastic Four, Namor, Batwoman, Dr.Strange.... i love them all

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    I like this. I do a lot. it fills in some details and it semi lines up with the thoughts I've shared.

    I'm good. it makes sense and it plays to her instinct, of wanting to be helpful but also the allure. Why should Bette be criticized when we see so many other heroes motivated the same way - - because she's female? Ppffpfpffpttptptpttttptpt!

    I don't want to diss Hawkfire totally. Maybe she realizes that despite an affinity to flamey stuff, she probably needs to leave that alone (we could see the accidental burning of furniture... or her old outfit again, tee-hee)

    But you really sum up her character:

    She gets annoyed because everyone keeps telling her to slow down, drop back, just stop

    and she finds a way around it.
    ~ Oberon ~
    Comic-book reading Witch and Pagan since 1970
    I came for Kate, I stayed for Bette Love Fantastic Four, Namor, Batwoman, Dr.Strange.... i love them all

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    And this too, is what some have said.

    Why do most Batfamily folks have to be angsty? Why can't we have someone who didn't have to nearly die - like Bette - become grittier and battle-hardened.

    The gal was taught stuff by Batman, way back as well as both Batwomen. She is not an amateur, she's plucky!
    ~ Oberon ~
    Comic-book reading Witch and Pagan since 1970
    I came for Kate, I stayed for Bette Love Fantastic Four, Namor, Batwoman, Dr.Strange.... i love them all

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