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  1. #31
    Chad Jar Jar Pinsir's Avatar
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    You're always going to get some melted faces and odd body types in comics though. I would say John Byrne is probably one of my favourite Post-Crisis WW artists, right after Brian Bolland.

    John Byrne and Patricia Mulvihill.jpg*

    WW Vol 2 #108 a.jpg

    WW Vol 2 #114 moar.jpg

    Editors note; Patricia Mulvihill is also credited for the first piece as well.
    Want to read Wonder Woman stories, but don't know where to start? Check out my top 10 lists for Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Age Wonder Woman tales!

    "You can't make an omelet without breaking a few necks." - Wonder Woman, probably

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Did he resurrect Artemis or bring her back to the book? That's one good thing I guess.
    Loebs resurrected Artemis in the Requiem mini-series; Byrne brought her back to the book, I think (it's been a long time) for the purpose of being a mentor to Cassie.

  3. #33
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    Byrne had a LOT of constraints and editorial To-Dos with his run. The first year to me seemed like a checklist of hitting those marks using the formula he applied during his Superman run.
    Last edited by Stanlos; 10-31-2020 at 09:35 AM.

  4. #34
    Mighty Member Timothy Hunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Can’t say I’m a fan of it. Seems Byrne is where ground zero of the cycles of new writers coming on to WW largely disregarding what came before them starts. Don’t know what the point of Hippolyta Wonder Woman was. I don’t really think Diana lost anything moving her origin to the modern times or not being a founding member of the JSA/JLA so came off as trying to fix a problem that didn’t exist.

    Between Byrne, Final Crisis, and Robinson think I’d also be happy if WW and the New Gods stopped interacting with one another.
    What happened to Wonder Woman in Final Crisis?

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I don’t really think Diana lost anything moving her origin to the modern times or not being a founding member of the JSA/JLA so came off as trying to fix a problem that didn’t exist.
    I agree with her moving to modern times for her origin (and not liking Hippolyta in JSA), but do not like her being a rookie when Batman and Superman aren't (and also didn't like the 5G idea of them being rookies when she was an experienced hero). Don't like the unequal footing. And, of course, the Donna fallout from that. Her backstory never made chronological sense, anyway, but this was worse because Wonder Girl existed before Wonder Woman did, so it kinda makes Diana look like the copier in-universe. Fortunately, the character was well-known enough that fans don't come in with that perception. And they changed Donna's name to crappy one (I dislike "Troia" for mostly the same reason as "Drake").
    Last edited by Tzigone; 11-01-2020 at 07:40 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I agree with her moving to modern times for her origin (and not liking Hippolyta in JSA), but do not like her being a rookie when Batman and Superman aren't (and also didn't like the 5G idea of them being rookies when she was an experienced hero). Don't like the unequal footing. And, of course, the Donna fallout from that. Her backstory never made chronological sense, anyway, but this was worse because Wonder Girl existed before Wonder Woman did, so it kinda makes Diana look like the copier in-universe. Fortunately, the character was well-known enough that fans don't come in with that perception. And they changed Donna's name to crappy one (I dislike "Troia" for mostly the same reason as "Drake").
    Diana isn't unequal to Clark and Bruce just because they have more experience than her especially when she caught up eventually. Donna's original backstory was at least simple and easy to understand.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Diana isn't unequal to Clark and Bruce just because they have more experience than her especially when she caught up eventually.
    Eventually. We still saw her as rookie when they were experienced. I don't like that. It doesn't bother you, I get that. It does bother me. She went from being one of the first to the one the most recent. I have similar irritation with Dinah being made into her daughter or when Dick as Robin is placed debuting long after Barry, Hal, etc. Taking away a character's experience and achievements is diminishing a character, IMO. Timeslides are a given and I totally get specific adventures being wiped away because they are too silver age or events don't fit continuity. But a decade of someone's life gone is just not at all okay. I've bitterly complained about Barbara and Dick being de-aged for similar, but not exactly the same, reasons.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 11-01-2020 at 07:58 PM.

  8. #38
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    What happened to Wonder Woman in Final Crisis?
    Main thing was just become one of Darkseid's mind-controlled slaves. On it's own it's not particularly bad but compared to the stuff Superman and Batman got to due it felt like something of a letdown.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I agree with her moving to modern times for her origin, but do not like her being a rookie when Batman and Superman aren't (and also didn't like the 5G idea of them being rookies when she was an experienced hero). Don't like the unequal footing.
    I can see that view I don't think it particularly diminished the character in any real way. If it puts her on unequal footing with Bruce or Clark, that's just because DC prefers her to play supporting character when the three are in the same room.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Eventually. We still saw her as rookie when they were experienced. I don't like that. It doesn't bother you, I get that. It does bother me. She went from being one of the first to the one the most recent. I have similar irritation with Dinah being made into her daughter or when Dick as Robin is placed debuting long after Barry, Hal, etc. Taking away a character's experience and achievements is diminishing a character, IMO. Timeslides are a given and I totally get specific adventures being wiped away because they are too silver age or events don't fit continuity. But a decade of someone's life gone is just not at all okay. I've bitterly complained about Barbara and Dick being de-aged for similar, but not exactly the same, reasons.
    Superman and Batman weren't the first in-universe either. The JSA existed before them. Batman and Superman lost experience and achievements in the beginning as well. Dinah didn't lose experience. She had a daughter she passed her name and legacy onto. I don't get why this is difficult for some fans to get. As for Dick, it was never stated prior to post-crisis if he debuted in-universe before Hal and Barry. If he did, that also meant he debuted before Diana which meant she had less superhero experience than a kid. I fail to see how that was any better. But as a I said, everyone lost experience and achievements because it was a reboot. No one was superior or inferior to the other. The books certainly never treated it that way so why should you? Let me remind you that prior to post-crisis, she was the secretary of the JSA.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy Hunter View Post
    What happened to Wonder Woman in Final Crisis?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Main thing was just become one of Darkseid's mind-controlled slaves. On it's own it's not particularly bad but compared to the stuff Superman and Batman got to due it felt like something of a letdown.
    The slavery/torture thing wouldn't even be bad if Diana broke free of her own power and/or did something of value at the end of the series.

    But she doesn't. She's Darkseid's slave until the last issue, where she's rescued off-panel after getting face-planted by Superman and proceeds to do nothing of worth. She ties up Darkseid in her Lasso...even though by that point he's mortally wounded, dying, and no longer much of a threat. By tying him up, she frees the Earth from the Ant-Life Equation...except by the point, the heroes had already found the Life Equation which negates Anti-Life, rending her sole contribution redundant and pointless.

    For comparison, Superman saves all of reality and fiction (because it's Morrison). Batman breaks free of his mental prison through sheer will-power and sacrifices himself to shoot Darkseid. The Flash outruns death itself, and Green Lantern rallies the entire Lantern Corp to slay Mandrakk the cosmic vampire.
    And that's not even factoring Supergirl, Lex Luthor, and even Tawky Tiger...who all got better showings than Wonder Woman.

    Morrison actually wound up apologizing for how he treated Diana in Final Crisis. That kind of says it all.
    "Never place your trust in us. We're only human. Inevitably, we will disappoint you."


  11. #41
    Astonishing Member Thirteen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koriand'r View Post
    It's cute there but it started like this...

    Attachment 101763

    Attachment 101764
    Simplifying the star spangled-ness of her shirts to just 2 big stars as a time saver as an artist was a BAD sign of being overworked. I did like Byrnes connecting the belt with the emblem, though. It unified the design.

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I did like Byrnes connecting the belt with the emblem, though. It unified the design.
    I always think it'd make it awkward to bend at the waist.

  13. #43
    Astonishing Member Thirteen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I always think it'd make it awkward to bend at the waist.
    Im reading it as either metallic fabric or flexible metal. Otherwise her breastplate would her poking her wicked bad too.

  14. #44
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Diana isn't unequal to Clark and Bruce just because they have more experience than her especially when she caught up eventually. Donna's original backstory was at least simple and easy to understand.
    Do you mean Donna's original post-Crisis origin? Because that was still needlessly complicated compared to the pre-COIE one they had finally got settled, so much so that even Wolfman considered it a shame that they had to do it at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Let me remind you that prior to post-crisis, she was the secretary of the JSA.
    While this is an embarrassing part of her history, I also feel it has achieved meme-like status and ignores the fact that the a JSA with Wonder Woman on it continued to exist after Marston's death.

  15. #45
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    That is something I have always wondered about. How does the board view Diana's armour/costume/suit?

    I was researching Adam Hughes and other WW artists and discovered that for him, he viewed the costume as two pieces--one crimson and gold piece and a cloth short. I think Yanick Paquette interpreted it as a cloth or other textile with only the gold pieces being armoured. Perez consider it three pieces--all metal/armoured--judging from his art and his text. He never had it sundered. That was one of the few elements Messner-Loebs kept as he incorporated narrative text that indicated that her costume was high indestructible and defied analysis.

    How do you guys view it? Is it regular cloth or leather with only some bits metal? Can the Amazons create indestructible metal clothing?

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