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  1. #121

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    When you go out and vote America, just remember who Trump's hardcore base is. Click to 6:54 seconds to see the action.

    This wasn't Clinton's hardcore base
    This wasn't Bush's hardcore base
    This wasn't Obama's hardcore base
    This wasn't Trump's...oh but wait.



    But unlike the rest of his followers at least he's wearing a mask....Happy Halloween!

  2. #122
    Astonishing Member PwrdOn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Huh? Everybody was celebrating the break up as better for most of the people in the satellite States. And it has turned out better for most of the countries. Especially the ones that joined the EU. Where on Earth did you get the those countries were better off under the USSR?
    The only former Soviet states that joined the EU are the Baltics, just about everywhere else you saw either the rise of dictators with bizarre cults of personalities (Belarus and the Stans), civil wars and ethnic unrest (Ukraine and the Caucasus), or a combination of both. And just to prove this wasn't a fluke, the same story played out in Yugoslavia, where the breakup of the central government led to a decade of war and mass murder, creating messy borders and a toxic political situation that won't be resolved anytime soon, which ended up being such a mess that we now refer to any breakup of a country into small feuding states as Balkanization. Oh, and as for the Soviet satellite states like Poland and Hungary, just about all of them have in recent years taken sharp turns toward far right nationalism, bordering on fascism, with their leaders fixated on the the notion of Islam taking over the continent despite the vast majority of migrants preferring to settle in Western Europe.

    Now, say what you will about the USSR being an inherently unstable entity that was doomed to collapse eventually due to the inherent contradictions in its socioeconomic structure. But it's indisputable that while it lasted, the Soviet sphere operating a single unified bloc was a political, military, technological, and economic force to be reckoned with, whereas in the 30 or so years since the breakup, the former Soviet states have declined to a point of utter irrelevance on the global stage, only attracting any notice when some comedian wants to make a movie about how backwards and uncivilized they are. Even Russia, for all of the fearmongering, is barely a shadow of its former power, with a tiny economy dependent almost entirely on fossil fuel exports, an aging population in terminal decline, and a military consisting of dated, rusted out hardware. And this wasn't due to some failure of leadership in the post-Soviet era that ruined the dream of a prosperous democratic society in the aftermath of communist misrule, this was an inevitable outcome of breaking up the USSR, since the Soviet effectively put on a lid on centuries of grievances and ethnic conflicts that quickly re-emerged after they fell from power.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by slop101 View Post
    If he wins, my wife and I will probably move to Canada (or Spain).
    I'm having flashbacks to 2016 where so many people said they would move to Canada (and are still in the US) without realizing that you can't just 'move to Canada.' Canada is harder to immigrate to than the US in many cases unless you're a legitimate refugee. If you're trying to immigrate from the US without marrying a Canadian or having millions of dollars, good freaking luck.

  4. #124
    Fantastic Member Zauriel's Avatar
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    America is dying, not because of one corrupt president. America is dying because the whole system is corrupt and broken.
    The two-party system is ruining the country. Both parties are kissing the behinds of their wealthy corporate donors. That is why the Democrats still haven't gone too far left.

    Trump is a symptom of the corruption caused by the mega-corporations and the two-party system. If only the third parties were stronger in the US like in Britain. I recall Britain has three major parties (Conservative, Labour and Liberal parties).

  5. #125
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Scott, if you just read the recent Kavanaugh opinion on voting, you can see that is not true.

    There has already been the groundwork laid for outlawing abortion by places like the Federalist Society. Barrett has written about the basis for outlawing abortion. This is why she was put on the Court.

    Barrett, Thomas and Alito have all said Roe can be overturned.
    There is a distinction between thinking Roe can be overturned, and thinking that abortion should be outlawed because fetuses have rights.

    If Roe VS Wade was overturned, abortion would largely be a state issue.

    Disagreement with Roe VS Wade isn't an extreme political opinion. Ruth Bader Ginsburg suggested it went too far.

    https://time.com/5354490/ruth-bader-...rg-roe-v-wade/

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Pretty much, through Trump they have confirmed at least 6 judges rated not qualified by the ABA. Some with no trial experience.
    McConnell helped Trump confirm a lot of judges, most of whom are conventionally qualified.

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...federal-judges

    A big factor is that filibuster reform made it tougher to filibuster potential Supreme Court justices when they were appointed to lower courts.

    The tally of ABA ratings is a little out of date. Trump appointees were determined by non qualified. However, 67 were rated qualified, and 181 were rated well-qualified.

    https://ballotpedia.org/ABA_ratings_...administration


    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    I think Trump losing could be just as bad (Not saying I want him to win or that Trump will be better. Dont freak out and give me a second) His lose will not be a lesson to the GOP. It will cause them to go Batshit crazy more then they are now. They will not see a Trump lose as a referendum on what he has done. Because a Trump loss could never happen fair. It would have to be through a rigged election. So of course they will double down on vote Suppression and if they keep the senate they will block everything that Biden or Harris want to do. If something does get by or they Lose the Senate then the Gop diehards will go to court and have things over turned in a GOP controlled SC.

    The only way to save America is to get rid of the GOP as it stands right now.

    They will groom the next Hardcore nutjob for the president. We think trump is bad? Wait until a Trump 2.0 that will be coming.

    Everyone seems to think Biden winning will be the end of the problems. He is not going to be the great unite everyone thinks. This country is too far opposite to be fixed in one election. No matter who wins things are going to be bad for a long time.

    I do think he will try hard to do much better. But a lot of problems cant be fixed just because he is voted president. Cops are still going to be racist. That is going to take major reform to change and get rid of bad cops.

    The virus will still be bad. Its great he is all for a mask mandate. But how many Trumpers or Republicans or anti science people will ignore it?

    Electing Biden is a start in the right direction. but he is not the savior.
    Republican voters might very well conclude that a Trump loss doesn't mean his policies were bad. They might think that he lost because of circumstances beyond his control, as well as biased media and the establishment, and argue that there will be more people on his side in 2024. In that case, they might back Trump again, one of his kids, or someone with similar policy preferences/ temperament.

    The big question will be whether that person wins the primary, to say nothing of the general election.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    If Roe VS Wade was overturned, abortion would largely be a state issue.
    I said it earlier, somebody would try to sue a state for a minor crossing state lines to obtain an abortion, in order to force a SCOTUS judgement on fetal rights. A similar suit might be brought by a father contesting an abortion without his agreement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Republican voters might very well conclude that a Trump loss doesn't mean his policies were bad. They might think that he lost because of circumstances beyond his control, as well as biased media and the establishment, and argue that there will be more people on his side in 2024. In that case, they might back Trump again, one of his kids, or someone with similar policy preferences/ temperament.

    The big question will be whether that person wins the primary, to say nothing of the general election.
    Another very real possibility in the face of a Trump or Trump-heir 2024 candidacy following a 2020 defeat is that the GOP officially splinters, with a third party forming around something like The Lincoln Project. Depending on conditions in 3 years, it could likely recruit independents that vote against republicans' more oligarchical and theocratic tendencies, and might even peel off some centrist democrats.

    Now, the US has never been able to sustain a viable third party for very long, but who knows? If it can't happen now, I'll be convinced that it won't be possible before the USA's end.

  7. #127
    Astonishing Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    I said it earlier, somebody would try to sue a state for a minor crossing state lines to obtain an abortion, in order to force a SCOTUS judgement on fetal rights. A similar suit might be brought by a father contesting an abortion without his agreement.


    Another very real possibility in the face of a Trump or Trump-heir 2024 candidacy following a 2020 defeat is that the GOP officially splinters, with a third party forming around something like The Lincoln Project. Depending on conditions in 3 years, it could likely recruit independents that vote against republicans' more oligarchical and theocratic tendencies, and might even peel off some centrist democrats.

    Now, the US has never been able to sustain a viable third party for very long, but who knows? If it can't happen now, I'll be convinced that it won't be possible before the USA's end.
    I think If a third party was going to arise and be taken seriously the next few years would be the time to do it. The problem is you would need a strong speaker, some one with a strong personality and good media coverage to make that happen. The person and media would have to help people see that the third party is not the nut jobs people tend to think of them as.
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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    I think If a third party was going to arise and be taken seriously the next few years would be the time to do it. The problem is you would need a strong speaker, some one with a strong personality and good media coverage to make that happen. The person and media would have to help people see that the third party is not the nut jobs people tend to think of them as.
    A single national leader is necessary but insufficient. It would require a broad effort at the state level.

  9. #129
    Astonishing Member Kusanagi's Avatar
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    The problem with third parties is they always seem to want to start at the top with the Presidency without building the necessary infrastructure first. A successful third party would need to be built at a local/state level, build recognition, then become something that can compete nationally.

    While they're not separate parties the Tea Party and the Justice Democrats, show something of the path that would need to be done.
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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kusanagi View Post
    The problem with third parties is they always seem to want to start at the top with the Presidency without building the necessary infrastructure first. A successful third party would need to be built at a local/state level, build recognition, then become something that can compete nationally.

    While they're not separate parties the Tea Party and the Justice Democrats, show something of the path that would need to be done.
    I agree with you, but as with so many things, Trump and his lackeys have pushed us into unexpected territory. I could see The Lincoln Project and like minded souls deciding they not only need to thwart Trump or his successor, but to neutralize Trumps' enablers at both the federal, and statehouse levels.

  11. #131
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    I said it earlier, somebody would try to sue a state for a minor crossing state lines to obtain an abortion, in order to force a SCOTUS judgement on fetal rights. A similar suit might be brought by a father contesting an abortion without his agreement.


    Another very real possibility in the face of a Trump or Trump-heir 2024 candidacy following a 2020 defeat is that the GOP officially splinters, with a third party forming around something like The Lincoln Project. Depending on conditions in 3 years, it could likely recruit independents that vote against republicans' more oligarchical and theocratic tendencies, and might even peel off some centrist democrats.

    Now, the US has never been able to sustain a viable third party for very long, but who knows? If it can't happen now, I'll be convinced that it won't be possible before the USA's end.
    The Lincoln Project is mainly pissed off political consultants. They don't have much of a natural constituency.

    I could see some pissed off Republicans forming their own party, that's socially moderate and fiscally conservative, but they likely wouldn't do very well. At best, it'll split the vote and allow Democrats to do better.

    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    I think If a third party was going to arise and be taken seriously the next few years would be the time to do it. The problem is you would need a strong speaker, some one with a strong personality and good media coverage to make that happen. The person and media would have to help people see that the third party is not the nut jobs people tend to think of them as.
    Why wouldn't that person just run in the primaries where less voters have more impact?

    They would also need to get a lot of followers elected to Congress in order to have sway over the other branches of government.

    There is some precedent for it. Macron's party was able to win a majority of parliamentary seats in its first go-around. This does work better in elections with runoffs, where there isn't much concern about splitting the vote.

    Alternatively, there could be some kind of major divide on an issue that Republicans and Democrats don't address, like how slavery allowed for an opening for the Republicans in the mid-19th century. There isn't anything at the moment that's so significant and doesn't map onto existing Democratic/ Republican lines, although it may occur in the future, especially given the state of change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kusanagi View Post
    The problem with third parties is they always seem to want to start at the top with the Presidency without building the necessary infrastructure first. A successful third party would need to be built at a local/state level, build recognition, then become something that can compete nationally.

    While they're not separate parties the Tea Party and the Justice Democrats, show something of the path that would need to be done.
    The tea party, Justice Democrats and Donald Trump show that it's easier to win primaries than third-party campaigns.
    Last edited by Mister Mets; 10-31-2020 at 02:39 PM.
    Sincerely,
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  12. #132
    Astonishing Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Yes I agree that a thrid party needs to work up from a local and state level. But I also think they need a strong leader, a spokesperson to advance the party and get their ideas out to the public.
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  13. #133
    Courage looks like this Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kusanagi View Post
    The problem with third parties is they always seem to want to start at the top with the Presidency without building the necessary infrastructure first. A successful third party would need to be built at a local/state level, build recognition, then become something that can compete nationally.

    While they're not separate parties the Tea Party and the Justice Democrats, show something of the path that would need to be done.
    This is undoubtedly true. Right now, Third parties are considered pariahs because they serve only to dilute the vote of the faction (liberal or conservative- without getting into Leftist or Tea party or 2000 other flavors of Liberal or Conservative that 99.9% of the population doesn't distinguish or care about) that would have won except the less popular candidate didn't have anyone splitting the vote. As a conservative co-worker once put it, "The problem with Third party candidates is that they have absolutely zero chance of winning but I do thank Ralph Nader for splitting the Liberal vote and handing the election to W".
    This is what courage looks like.

  14. #134
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    This is undoubtedly true. Right now, Third parties are considered pariahs because they serve only to dilute the vote of the faction (liberal or conservative- without getting into Leftist or Tea party or 2000 other flavors of Liberal or Conservative that 99.9% of the population doesn't distinguish or care about) that would have won except the less popular candidate didn't have anyone splitting the vote. As a conservative co-worker once put it, "The problem with Third party candidates is that they have absolutely zero chance of winning but I do thank Ralph Nader for splitting the Liberal vote and handing the election to W".
    That's basically third parties in a nutshell under our voting system. If we used the Condorcet voting method or even just used runoffs nationally, it would be different. However, we don't, so they're de facto spoilers and nothing more the vast majority of the time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    That's basically third parties in a nutshell under our voting system. If we used the Condorcet voting method or even just used runoffs nationally, it would be different. However, we don't, so they're de facto spoilers and nothing more the vast majority of the time.
    Ultimately we're unlikely to change our electoral system because the guys in power are in power thanks to it. That said, if ever change was possible, this would have to be the time.

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