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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Joker's Avatar
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    It won't be the end of America, no. It will make it worse for many people, though.

    Getting Trump the fuck out of that office is hugely important, but it is equally important to shift the power away from his enablers in the lower levels of government.

    Trump can't just do whatever he wants when the checks and balances are enacted. They haven't really been enacted very often recently.
    Hey gang! Looking to sell of some of my TPB/HC collection. PM me if interested.
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  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    It will be the end of certain aspects we assume about America that's all, and the end of some future possibilities and avenues...delaying certain vital pressing reforms down the road.

  3. #18
    Extraordinary Member PaulBullion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It will be the end of certain aspects we assume about America that's all, and the end of some future possibilities and avenues...delaying certain vital pressing reforms down the road.
    Like it being above water.
    "How does the Green Goblin have anything to do with Herpes?" - The Dying Detective

    Hillary was right!

  4. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    As a Canadian, I've grown up with this myth that the American system of government is far superior and more democratic than our constitutional monarchy parliamentary democracy. Supposedly, there are so many checks and balances in the American system that no despot could rule for long without being thrown out of office.

    In the last four years, the U.S. has put on a demonstration sport of how each of these checks and balances can easily be undermined--turns out it's super-easy.

    If I was a citizen of the U.S.--and the final check on Trump's power (getting voted out of office) failed to throw him out--I'd be thinking this system is useless and there's no bureaucratic instrument to stop the President from doing whatever the hell he wants.

    The only option for regular folks seems to be trying to avoid getting killed as best you can or taking direct action to overthrow the government and change the system. Trump has shown people that peaceful means don't work--so what else is one to do but try the non-peaceful means?

    Either way--living North of you guys--I think my country is screwed. Whatever happens, should Trump remain in office, your mess is going to spill over the border and foul things up here. And there's nothing we can do to stop that.
    Are you from Alberta? I don't know anyone up here who would choose the American Presidential system over our British parliamentary democracy?

    In Canada, if a party wins a majority and wants to pass gay marriage legislation or legalize marijuana wham bam it's done.

    Try that in the United States in you constantly have to haggle if you don't control both the senate and house.

    Plus the senate down there is based on regional representation instead of % per population, so rural farmers in Saskatchewan would get the same representation of the bulk of Ontario. Idaho the same representation as California? Hardly seems fair, our system is much better.

  5. #20
    Extraordinary Member Robotman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    As a Canadian, I've grown up with this myth that the American system of government is far superior and more democratic than our constitutional monarchy parliamentary democracy. Supposedly, there are so many checks and balances in the American system that no despot could rule for long without being thrown out of office.

    In the last four years, the U.S. has put on a demonstration sport of how each of these checks and balances can easily be undermined--turns out it's super-easy.

    If I was a citizen of the U.S.--and the final check on Trump's power (getting voted out of office) failed to throw him out--I'd be thinking this system is useless and there's no bureaucratic instrument to stop the President from doing whatever the hell he wants.

    The only option for regular folks seems to be trying to avoid getting killed as best you can or taking direct action to overthrow the government and change the system. Trump has shown people that peaceful means don't work--so what else is one to do but try the non-peaceful means?

    Either way--living North of you guys--I think my country is screwed. Whatever happens, should Trump remain in office, your mess is going to spill over the border and foul things up here. And there's nothing we can do to stop that.
    It’s not just the system of checks and balances that’s broken. It’s the actual way that we vote as well. The definition of a democracy is “control of an organization or group by the majority of its members.” that’s not the case with the electoral college. We currently have a system where the minority rule. The GOP no longer tries to win the popular vote.

    I live in California, our state is the 5th largest economy in the world and my vote is pretty useless. For example, Wyoming has three electoral votes and a population of 586,107, while California has 55 electoral votes and 39,144,818 residents. Distributing the electoral vote evenly among each state’s residents would make individual votes from Wyoming carry 3.6 times more influence than a voter from California.

    So with the electoral college in place, Trump’s chances of winning are still pretty good. He needs to stay in power in order to stay out of prison. End of our democracy? Maybe.

    You guys should build a wall on your southern border. I hear that’s a pretty popular idea these days.
    Last edited by Robotman; 10-24-2020 at 01:50 PM.

  6. #21
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    ...If I was a citizen of the U.S.--and the final check on Trump's power (getting voted out of office) failed to throw him out--I'd be thinking this system is useless and there's no bureaucratic instrument to stop the President from doing whatever the hell he wants.

    The only option for regular folks seems to be trying to avoid getting killed as best you can or taking direct action to overthrow the government and change the system. Trump has shown people that peaceful means don't work--so what else is one to do but try the non-peaceful means?...
    This is the nightmare scenario. I won't speak for POC, but there are arguments that unrest among those populations is grounded in their (quite understandable) belief that the US' rule of law has never protected them. The Moral Majority and Tea Party movements were grounded in something similar (note: I'm saying that those groups perceived that they were somehow being disenfranchised, not that they were right), and the Militia Movements are taking it even further. A larger slice of the US populace developing such convictions is exactly what we don't need.

    It's also exactly what every US enemy with an active cyber-operation is laboring to cause. Intelligence experts assert that Russia and Iran care less about who wins than that the legitimacy of the next administration be soiled as thoroughly as possible.

  7. #22
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post

    It's also exactly what every US enemy with an active cyber-operation is laboring to cause. Intelligence experts assert that Russia and Iran care less about who wins than that the legitimacy of the next administration be soiled as thoroughly as possible.
    Partially true, but since Russia owns Trump and a large part of the GOP, they would prefer Trump. He is their agent after all.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  8. #23
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    Partially true, but since Russia owns Trump and a large part of the GOP, they would prefer Trump. He is their agent after all.
    A reelection would be a cherry on the sundae, no doubt.

    That said, Putin's primary goal is maximum chaos in the US. Trump certainly enables that, but they can get it by contesting Biden win, no matter what the numbers. One outcome just happens to be easier for them than the other.

  9. #24
    Ultimate Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    If Trump remains in office after losing the vote because his Supreme Court stops the vote count and/or a few State Legislators give their electors to Trump after the State votes for Biden, how is that not the end of American Democracy?
    These are both scenarios Trump is actively pursuing.
    Easy...

    American Democracy was already dead.

    All what you describe would be doing is spitting on a grave.

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    No it won't be the end of America but how he treated some states (and the Red and Blue mentality that has been spreading) namely California and New York it would be interesting see how far you could push one of those states before small talk becomes well maybe we shouldn't be part of United States.

  11. #26
    Ultimate Member Mister Mets's Avatar
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    It would suck, but it's not the end of America. Bad Presidents have been reelected before.

    For all of Trump's deficits, he has not started new wars and he has not taken advantage of the pandemic to increase federal power. He's also ineffective at getting stuff done, which mitigates the harm he could do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    Itís not just the system of checks and balances thatís broken. Itís the actual way that we vote as well. The definition of a democracy is ďcontrol of an organization or group by the majority of its members.Ē thatís not the case with the electoral college. We currently have a system where the minority rule. The GOP no longer tries to win the popular vote.

    I live in California, our state is the 5th largest economy in the world and my vote is pretty useless. For example, Wyoming has three electoral votes and a population of 586,107, while California has 55 electoral votes and 39,144,818 residents. Distributing the electoral vote evenly among each stateís residents would make individual votes from Wyoming carry 3.6 times more influence than a voter from California.

    So with the electoral college in place, Trumpís chances of winning are still pretty good. He needs to stay in power in order to stay out of prison. End of our democracy? Maybe.

    You guys should build a wall on your southern border. I hear thatís a pretty popular idea these days.
    Most countries don't have a true democracy. In parliamentary systems, you don't vote directly for the prime minister and there can still be a mismatch between the popular vote in the nation, and the parliamentary map.
    Last edited by Mister Mets; 10-25-2020 at 06:38 AM.
    Sincerely,
    Thomas Mets

  12. #27
    Swollen Member GOLGO 13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus Arkham View Post
    If Trump wins re-election do you fear America is doomed with no hope of salvation? Is Democracy forever dead along with the thousands of Americans that have perished under the virus? I like to think of myself as an eternal optimist but for myself if Trump were to win re-election, I think I may become an eternal pessimist. What do you think?
    IF your rich & white you'll be fine. No problemo.

    Everybody else? Get ready for the end of life as we knew it. If we stay under a million dead of covid by 2024 it will be a minor miracle.

    Russia steam rolls into Belarus but comes to a sudden stop outside Finland. The Swedes/Norway stockpile the Baltic Sea with mines. The Italians getting busy expanding American bases in the Adriatic Sea. Expect to see German/French/Danish/English U-boats & destroyers cruising those oceans. US fleet will have assets parked inside the Mediterranean Sea. 2 maybe 3 battle carrier groups rotating probably forever.

    Estonia renamed Putanistan. China...laughs & laughs.

  13. #28
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    No. But it will mean the end of his presidency after another four years, if he survives. Still wondering if some nutbag isn't just going to shoot him. The next president is in being elected in a year divisible by 20 and its been a while since there was a real assassination attempt on one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robotman View Post
    You guys should build a wall on your southern border. I hear that’s a pretty popular idea these days.
    There is already a wall in lots of the populated parts, at least in California, built under Clinton.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  14. #29
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    Well, obviously America won't end soon, because America is a continent. Eventually, rising sea levels, the movement of tectonic plates and the heat-death of the universe will take this continent away. States, on the other hand, are artificial constructs and they can easily go away.
    🇨🇦
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    by a bear.

  15. #30
    Amazing Member Adam Allen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amadeus Arkham View Post
    If Trump wins re-election do you fear America is doomed with no hope of salvation? Is Democracy forever dead along with the thousands of Americans that have perished under the virus? I like to think of myself as an eternal optimist but for myself if Trump were to win re-election, I think I may become an eternal pessimist. What do you think?
    Well first, Democracy and America (the country) are not one and the same. So, you can have America end without Democracy being forever dead along with it.

    As far as America ending ... you know, nothing lasts forever. The planet will actually die one day, the sun will ... both long after the human race as we know has ended, I'd imagine. So you know, if you consider it from that kind of timeline, we can pretty easily say that it's really on the optimistic side to say that America will die, well before the human race will. (I mean, some hard core patriots would rather that wouldn't be the case, but those people are insane.)

    From a non-nihilistic, non-Rapture-Is-Coming kind of mindset, we'd have to realistically be aware that America will in fact end one day. I don't personally think that's in the next few years, but who knows, we could all be surprised.

    I think the really important question to consider is if the US government as it exists were to collapse, would the people formerly known as Americans be able to come up with something better, or would we devolve into some kind of Mad Max post-apocalyptic dystopia?


    Maybe we would create a better Democracy from America's ashes?
    Be kind to me, or treat me mean
    I'll make the most of it, I'm an extraordinary machine

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