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  1. #61
    Invincible Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    No.

    He actually just handed them the cash in a bailout.

    Things have been bought and paid for going on "Decades..." now. While the degree to which a President actually pulls the curtain back on that might vary, that they have all been stooges for the same boss doesn't change.
    You should research the accountability of the 2009 relief program. And the amount paid back.

    But your Bothsiderism is duly noted.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  2. #62
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    You should research the accountability of the 2009 relief program. And the amount paid back.

    But your Bothsiderism is duly noted.
    That you paid yourself back doesn't change that you were calling the shot to do so.

    Don't even get me started on Bill Clinton.

  3. #63
    Invincible Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by numberthirty View Post
    That you paid yourself back doesn't change that you were calling the shot to do so.

    Don't even get me started on Bill Clinton.
    They guy who balanced the budget by raising taxes on the Rich and corporations?
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  4. #64
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    They guy who balanced the budget by raising taxes on the Rich and corporations?
    Jeez...

    That sounds like someone taking a look at them showing you the queen at the three card monte table, and saying "See! You Can Win!..."

    What you just described is not the last words on the page where you see "The End". It ain't even the end of the second act.

  5. #65
    Mighty Member Zauriel's Avatar
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    If Trump wins re-election and the Republicans win both the Senate and the House, it means the Democrats haven't learned anything for the last 4 years.

    But the covid pandemic may affect the election outcome, guaranteeing Biden's victory.

  6. #66
    Unadjusted Human on CBR SUPERECWFAN1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zauriel View Post
    If Trump wins re-election and the Republicans win both the Senate and the House, it means the Democrats haven't learned anything for the last 4 years.

    But the covid pandemic may affect the election outcome, guaranteeing Biden's victory.
    What haven;t they learned ? Honestly its hard to stop what were seeing happen when you don't have a majority in Senate and the President is handed unlimited power by his own party to do whatever he sees fit. One party has unlimited power right now.
    "The story so far: As usual, Ginger and I are engaged in our quest to find out what the hell is going on and save humanity from my nemesis, some bastard who is presumably responsible." - Sir Digby Chicken Caesar.
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  7. #67
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It's a natural tendency to want to make a silver lining and so on...that somehow this kind of misrule might create a better world and so on...but we shouldn't fall into that kind of trap.

    People said in the '70s that Nixon was good for Democracy because the public outcry about his administration and so on made people less trusting of the Presidency...but then 10 years later you had Ronald Reagan whose administration had more criminal indictments than Nixon did and where Nixon resigned over Watergate, Reagan presided after Iran-Contra...and Reagan walked out of the WH and got a successful post-presidency with high approval ratings, every inch the bad guy who won.

    What I mean is that it's too early to tell or decide what's gonna happen Post-Trump. The right wing in America has historically doubled or tripled down or quadrupled down when faced with rejection, rebuke, defeat and so on. It's very much "the guy who can't accept no". It doesn't have a lot of history in terms of backing down.
    Setting aside political elections, I've heard it argued that, if you look at American history, conservative and liberal eras fluctuate but each conservative era is less conservative and each liberal era is more liberal.

    Using gay rights as an example, there wasn't, for any practical purpose, a gay rights rights movement until maybe the 1970s. Now, here we are with gay marriage legal and moving to Trans rights. Yes, the Republicans want to undo all that but society has moved to the point of generally accepting it. Sure, there's a conservative backlash but not even liberals would be on this bandwagon a few decades ago. Even a lot of conservatives consider it an issue they don't engage.

    Right now, we have protests and sometimes riots over George Floyd and the plight of black people that he represents. BUT, is anyone, even conservatives, moving to get those "Whites only" signs into windows again? True it's one step back but two steps forward.
    Power with Girl is better.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zauriel View Post
    If Trump wins re-election and the Republicans win both the Senate and the House, it means the Democrats haven't learned anything for the last 4 years.

    But the covid pandemic may affect the election outcome, guaranteeing Biden's victory.
    This minimises how tough the GOP are, please don't victim blame the Democrats for losing. You'd think it was easy to defeat the GOP in elections with that train of thought.

  9. #69
    Ultimate Member Tendrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powerboy View Post
    Setting aside political elections, I've heard it argued that, if you look at American history, conservative and liberal eras fluctuate but each conservative era is less conservative and each liberal era is more liberal.
    This is untrue. One look at reconstruction and the century-long establishment of Jim Crow to see that. It's really easy to put your faith in history. Don't do it. History tells us that the rights we've created are incredibly fragile, and if unprotected, the consensus backing them can collapse very fast indeed.

  10. #70
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steel Inquisitor View Post
    This minimises how tough the GOP are, please don't victim blame the Democrats for losing. You'd think it was easy to defeat the GOP in elections with that train of thought.
    You're not actually much of a victim if you are throwing away really basic chances not to lose elections.

  11. #71
    Invincible Member numberthirty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SUPERECWFAN1 View Post
    What haven;t they learned ? Honestly its hard to stop what were seeing happen when you don't have a majority in Senate and the President is handed unlimited power by his own party to do whatever he sees fit. One party has unlimited power right now.
    Got disagree just a bit there.

    Let's lay out a "Wild And Crazy..." scenario that would actually require some of this "Unlimited..." power that you say the President has been handed.

    In this scenario, said President actually attempts to cut something like a legitimate compromise deal with Dems on a second "Helping Hand..." Covid package. In an attempt to get the Dems onboard? He even throws in some cash in states that need to right the ship on things like unfunded pensions.

    You saying you actually think that said President's power doesn't suddenly get really, really limited if he tries anything like that?

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member Blue22's Avatar
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    The end of America? No, of course not. As much as I think he's the worst thing to happen to America since Reagan, I don't think it's so bad that the entire country is doomed. He's too much of a blithering man-child to do anything that we can't bounce back from (unless we're talking from an environmental standpoint).

    However, I do think his presidency has highlighted a huge problem in not only our government (both the red and blue sides) but the American people as a whole. While I may have disagreed with everything else he said, caj was 100% right about us having "the same problems we've always had".

    The same issues of inequality (whether it's over race, gender, or social class), a lack of empathy, an unwillingness to compromise or to even attempt to see things from an opposing viewpoint, the belief that problems don't exist just because we don't personally see them, blind loyalty to political parties, etc. Trump didn't create the sorry state that America is in. He's the result of it. He's the embodiment of everything wrong with America today. All of its entitlement, its ignorance, its black and white mentality, its hypocrisy. And under him, all of these things have gotten worse. The American people were already divided to the point of showing open hostility to anyone who votes differently from them. But he's done absolutely nothing to fix that division. He's only helped exacerbate it.

    I won't pretend to 100% know what his economic impact has been. And I was honestly never concerned with that in the first place. But socially? This country is in complete disarray. It may not be all his fault. But he's certainly helped fan the flames. And the pessimist in me is pretty sure it'll continue for another four years. The most I can hope for is that we get more Republicans to grow some spines (thankfully we've already had some who've started to see the light) and remind the crybaby in chief that he's the President. Not the king. And that he's a grown ass man. Not a toddler. They spend way too much time pandering to a man who thinks everyone who disagrees with him is evil and an "enemy of the country". You want America to be "great"? Lead by example. Be great. And demand greatness from our leaders.
    Last edited by Blue22; 10-27-2020 at 10:15 PM.

  13. #73
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    A lot of it is because the focus of America is in the wrong places - for instance the Supreme Courts and judicial power. There has been this myth about activist judges for a while now and an accompanying belief that somehow if you stack the courts then they will fix "insert issue here." Time and history hasn't proven any of that to be the case, yet people still believe it. There are way too many single-issue voters and people using single-issue logic to sort out the political arena.

    It probably starts with listening to each other. One encouraging thing for me this past year has been the BLM thing. Yes I know its been very polarizing, but for the first time in a lot of years I'm hearing some of the truly downtrodden in our country get to have an actual voice rather than someone else just speaking for them. Thats at least something. Long ways to go still.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    A lot of it is because the focus of America is in the wrong places - for instance the Supreme Courts and judicial power. There has been this myth about activist judges for a while now and an accompanying belief that somehow if you stack the courts then they will fix "insert issue here." Time and history hasn't proven any of that to be the case, yet people still believe it. There are way too many single-issue voters and people using single-issue logic to sort out the political arena.
    Except SCOTUS and the judiciary are vital instruments in how law gets made in America, it's puzzling to me why the left has problems making them a priority with governmental laws and regulations. What should be the right "focus" in your opinion, that wasn't mentioned. There are activist judges, they're just Republican, when the right brings that up it's projection. Kavanaugh is an activist judge, for instance.

    It probably starts with listening to each other. One encouraging thing for me this past year has been the BLM thing. Yes I know its been very polarizing, but for the first time in a lot of years I'm hearing some of the truly downtrodden in our country get to have an actual voice rather than someone else just speaking for them. Thats at least something. Long ways to go still.
    Easy to say, nearly impossible to do in society. Our problems are so much harder to solve, this is why racism and oppression is every present in every country and group. But the downtrodden do have a voice, they didn't start getting it this year.

  15. #75
    My Face Is Up Here Powerboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    A lot of it is because the focus of America is in the wrong places - for instance the Supreme Courts and judicial power. There has been this myth about activist judges for a while now and an accompanying belief that somehow if you stack the courts then they will fix "insert issue here." Time and history hasn't proven any of that to be the case, yet people still believe it. There are way too many single-issue voters and people using single-issue logic to sort out the political arena.

    It probably starts with listening to each other. One encouraging thing for me this past year has been the BLM thing. Yes I know its been very polarizing, but for the first time in a lot of years I'm hearing some of the truly downtrodden in our country get to have an actual voice rather than someone else just speaking for them. Thats at least something. Long ways to go still.
    That is very true. There are people in my family that I know would react very differently if we could somehow get abortion off the table as an issue in this election. In fact, a friend of mine thinks Trump would lose a significant amount of support, especially evangelical support, if it wasn't for that issue.
    Power with Girl is better.

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