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  1. #16
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by comicstar100 View Post
    Interesting but he did become a full time member of The Defenders a few years later.
    About a decade later, by which time his status quo had changed.
    Also, the Defenders of which he was a part, from their origins, were nonconformist outsiders. Not infrequently, Dr. Strange tricked the Hulk into cooperating. As the Defenders became less of the "non-team" they'd been, you saw less of the Hulk.

  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by comicstar100 View Post
    Interesting but he did become a full time member of The Defenders a few years later.
    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    Why do people always act as though character traits are completely static? Why can't he eventually become a team player even if he wasn't one initially?

    (This rant isn't aimed specifically at you. It's just something that I felt like I had to say.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    About a decade later, by which time his status quo had changed.
    By the time the Hulk joined as a "Core" member of the Defenders, his personality and maturity had grown much from his days with the Avengers.

    The Hulk also quarrered with/got angry at the Defenders and he left on more than one occasion.

  3. #18
    Astonishing Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    The Avengers were team of the world's most well respected heroes coming together for common cause.

    The Defenders were, at times, three shirtless hobos crashing at Dr. Strange's house.

  4. #19
    Astonishing Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    It is odd the writer tossed him out so soon. Plus hotheads quicksilver and hawkeye who acted like jerks worse then the hulk at times in the early days were just fine on the team. Plus the early hulk had more smarts then the later one.

    The emh cartoon even said that was bull and had the wasp go find the hulk and talked him into rejoining the team after he left. He stayed with them.

    Felt like they just wanted him as a "guest star" or didn't know what to do with him in avengers.

    As for defenders as a "non team". Never bought it. They went out and did missions like other teams. Heck new avengers WAS the defenders under the avengers name but they are still a team. Even nighthawk called them out on it. Hulk was a member for over 100 issues of defenders. If he was a "outcast" so much why was he on the team so long? Why didn't he just leave?

    Felt more like they didn't know what to do with him yet in avengers and dumped him as soon as they could.

  5. #20
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    The first Avengers issue was thrown together pretty quickly, it's got a lot of charm, but it's clear that not a lot of thought went into it. Stan left Spidey and Dr Strange out because he thought that the premises for those characters didn't work with them being on a JLA-style team. After the first issue came out, he felt the same about the Hulk.

    As far as the Hulk being on the Defenders for so long, by the time he joined, his personally was more of a lovable dumb monster and it worked better in group of misfits that the Marvel civilians weren't even aware of.

  6. #21
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Stan Lee just wanted him in an antagonist role just like he did with Namor.
    That and his solo title was cancelled in early 1963 with issue #6, probably because publisher Martin Goodman felt it wasn't selling. So maybe Stan decided he may as well drop him from the Avengers with no need to promote the character anymore.

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Oberon's Avatar
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    In real time, publishing time, it was at least a dozen years later before official Defenders, though by the late '60s he was clearly more established as the ultimate anti hero and misunderstood hero. He was nearly always reluctant hero, but this was when his own comic was very popular and he was often more friendly with Patsy and Valkyrie than the rest. His character just seemed to go through so much that should have never allowed his gentle nature. The whole thing with the Crossroads he was exiled to...
    ~ Oberon ~
    Comic-book reading Witch and Pagan since 1970
    I came for Kate, I stayed for Bette Love Fantastic Four, Namor, Batwoman, Dr.Strange.... i love them all

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by comicstar100 View Post
    Just started reading silverage Avengers on the Marvel app. I'm curious, do we know why Stan Lee and Jack Kirby chose to have the Hulk leave the Avengers after only a couple issues?
    This video will answer your question in full detail

    https://youtu.be/iQiXdVgt5-k

  9. #24

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    That video covered something I never knew--- how all the Hulk's appearances across all Marvel books of the time--- flowed into one another. I never knew about the "Journey into Mystery" flashback, or how/why Hulk was in the cave in "Amazing Spider-Man". It's amazing how tightly those old stories flowed together. Hulk's time between the end of his title (issues 1-6) in March 1963 and his arrival as a regular in "Tales to Astonish" in 1964 plays out like one massive cross-over. Sorta' like the late 80's Annual crossovers, like "Atlantis Attacks", where one recurring villain or theme flows in and out of various titles.

    IMO, the "Why was Hulk even on the Avengers?" question is a great topic and one that I've never heard an official definitive answer to. When I first got into comic collecting in the early 80's, I was surprised that Hulk was listed as a former Avenger, as it seemed so outlandish. I was used to the "super team dynamic" of the JLA or Avengers, where members all have official meetings and hang out at HQ. Some of the reasons I've heard about Hulk on the (early) Avengers range from plotting to creative logistics:

    (again, keep in mind these are all possibilities. Not saying one is THE answer):

    1. Hulk's adventures in Gamma Base (usually New Mexico or Arizona) would make it tough to constantly cook up excuses on how to get him to mingle with the team in NYC. So in that regard, he couldn't be a "regular".

    2. Thor had super-strength. Giant-Man had super-strength. Iron Man had super-strength (to a degree). Why would you need another powerhouse?

    3. Hulk was becoming so popular, that they thought his presence in "Tales to Astonish" would help that book more than it would "Avengers".

    4. How far ahead was Captain America's return planned? Did they know when they were producing Avengers #1 that Cap would be returning in Avengers #4? This kinda' ties into #3, above. If Cap proved to be popular, then why cram everything into one book? Cap could carry "Avengers" and Hulk could help "TTA".

    5. Hulk works best, solo, because he allows for stories that deal with the Jekyll/Hyde dichotomy of Bruce Banner and the Hulk. In those early issues, the Avengers are rarely (if ever) in their civilian IDs.



    I'll also say that Hulk wasn't the childish "you no like Hulk. Hulk smash" character that he's most famous as. In the mid-60's, he wasn't such a simpleton and could talk in complete sentences, but was kind of a bully or jerk. When Hulk teamed up with Dr. Strange and Namor in "Marvel Feature #1"-- in the team that would become "The Defenders"--- he was that childlike "Hulk smash" tantrum thrower.

    One of my favorite Hulk scenes in "Defenders" is circa issue 12 or so. Hulk is ticked off at the (non) team, per usual, but Dr. Strange simply says: "no Hulk, we're your friends. We like you". Hulk then stops pouting and decides to stick around. Yup, that's all it took to stop Hulk from beating the tar out of you and destroying your city. Just say you like him and want to be his friend!

    Strangely enough, Bruce Banner rarely appeared in "Defenders". I'd say it was about 80% Hulk. Banner only popped up when the plot required it. Also, when Defenders really got rolling in the 70's, the "super hero team dynamic" had been established, and the books themselves would focus more on the secondary characters (Hellcat, Nighthawk, even Red Guardian).

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ptrvc View Post
    The Defenders were, at times, three shirtless hobos crashing at Dr. Strange's house.
    This is the best description of the original Defenders I have ever read lol

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Gaastra's Avatar
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    . It's amazing how tightly those old stories flowed together. Hulk's time between the end of his title (issues 1-6) in March 1963 and his arrival as a regular in "Tales to Astonish" in 1964 plays out like one massive cross-over. Sorta' like the late 80's Annual crossovers, like "Atlantis Attacks", where one recurring villain or theme flows in and out of various titles.
    You should check out the first hulk epic collection. It has the hulk "pre tales" stories in story order from avengers, fantastic four, spider-man, etc.

  12. #27
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    It's been a while since I read the early Defenders issues, but I seem to remember the first villain they faced had put a curse on Hulk, Strange, and Namor. I don't remember what triggered it, but the curse brought the three of them together immediately, regardless of where they were or who they were with. It was a long time before that spell was removed, so they didn't really have a choice about being together.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blunt Guy View Post
    It's been a while since I read the early Defenders issues, but I seem to remember the first villain they faced had put a curse on Hulk, Strange, and Namor. I don't remember what triggered it, but the curse brought the three of them together immediately, regardless of where they were or who they were with. It was a long time before that spell was removed, so they didn't really have a choice about being together.
    That was much later in the Defenders series. Second or third volume

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Option38 View Post
    One of my favorite Hulk scenes in "Defenders" is circa issue 12 or so. Hulk is ticked off at the (non) team, per usual, but Dr. Strange simply says: "no Hulk, we're your friends. We like you". Hulk then stops pouting and decides to stick around. Yup, that's all it took to stop Hulk from beating the tar out of you and destroying your city. Just say you like him and want to be his friend!
    More often than not that isn't strategy which works, even with friends like Doc Samson. When Spider-man first met him in the cave all Spidey did was calmly tell him he new to move along because he was worried Hulk would wander into the nearest town - what does he get in response? Hulk yelling and trying to murder him. Again and again. Hulk doesn't know how strong Spider-man is, they just met and just delivers haymakers, if he were a random people they would have died. This would continue to a thing for the Savage Hulk to this day.

    In the Gamma Base period he did the same thing to Doc Samson calmly told to calm down when the X-men come visiting, all he got for his trouble is constantly getting hit and it's Doc Samson who is apologising for upsetting him, because he knows he's all that's stopping Hulk going to and hurting people. Everyone in Gamma Base is on edge with him there.

    Frankly, given Hulk's violent tantrums I'm surprised I haven't heard of Hulk hitting Betty at some point. The context comes off as text book domestic abuser.

    And that's not getting into his other personas like Devil Hulk, Green Scar and the Grey Hulk.

    Edit: The reason the Avengers didn't trust Hulk in the early days is because of what the Hulk was doing before they met, back then he started off as the Grey Hulk. An anti-hero/villain out for himself, who wanted to conquer the world and got caught up with other villains who he had to fight because they were an obstacle. Only a fool would trust someone that blindly, which Loki exploited and Hulk's not that good at being social.
    Last edited by Steel Inquisitor; 10-26-2020 at 06:10 AM.

  15. #30
    Astonishing Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    Eh, the Avengers fell for the exact same trick twice in a row. Can't blame Hulk for seeing the writing on the wall.

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