Opinions on Tynion’s run so far..

[phonogram12]

That’s the thing though, its more like new paint on old concepts.

Yeah. While not every arc was a hit with me, King's run was very distinctive, like most of my favorite runs on Batman and Detective. Tynion's just seems like a lot of flash and bang and very little else that really distinguishes it.

[Frontier]

That’s the thing though, its more like new paint on old concepts.

Considering some of those old concepts hadn't really been in play in the comics for a while and might not be ever (like a Joker henchgirl that's not Harley), I can at least see the narrative necessity for them and what they bring to the table.

King promised a lot but kind of failed to deliver on several fronts. Should he be respected for the attempt? Maybe, but there's not much worth talking about otherwise in my opinion. I can't say his follow ups from Knightfall were all that much better than anything Tynion's come up with.

[Godlike13]

It’s low hanging fruit. Harley’s popular so let’s just make new one like we did with Robin. Or hey let’s puts Bat symbols on everyone, or revert characters to how I and others remember them, but lets not actually say anything new with them or have them even do much of anything at all. Even Joker War, as over hyped and marketed as it was, in the end it was just a generic Batman vs Joker story. Compare that to War of Jokes and Riddles, sure Jokes and Riddles had far less pandering, but I find the story itself far more memorable just on the concept alone.

[Frontier]

It’s low hanging fruit. Harley’s popular so let’s just make new one like we did with Robin. Or hey let’s puts Bat symbols on everyone, or revert characters to how I and others remember them, but lets not actually say anything new with them or have them even do much of anything at all. Even Joker War, as over hyped and marketed as it was, in the end it was just a generic Batman vs Joker story. Compare that to War of Jokes and Riddles, sure Jokes and Riddles had far less pandering, but I find the story itself far more memorable just on the concept alone.

I mean, creating a new character to fulfill a narrative function that you can't do with another character anymore doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I don't buy into Harley's current direction that warrants it, but that's a whole other topic.

I don't see anything wrong with building characters back up again, even if you don't care for said characters or the way Tynion is going through building them up just because it hearkens back to the past. It's still too early into his run to claim he's not doing much of anything with them in my opinion.

War of Jokes and Riddles felt more pretentious and messy to me, like a lot of King's Batman stories, but that's just me. I'm one of those who quickly became disillusioned with King's work.

[Godlike13]

Joker War is complete. It’s not too early to say he didn’t do anything with them, because he didn’t. For example you can literally remove Nightwing’s return and it wouldn’t impact the story. Despite Joker War eating up like 6 months of his solo. He padded his story, and market that moment for his story, but nothing was really done with it. Like I said, it’s low hanging fruit. Bringing Nightwing back is easy brownie points. But it was almost worthless narratively. Same with putting Bat symbols on the girls, or putting Babs in a chair. But all that speaks to a section of the audience, that will eat up those member berries, despite them being shallow and half cooked. Even Punchline, she looks cool and speculators ate her up, but she was not a new concept there was a necessity for. But she seems to have hit so I’m not gonna knock her. But let’s not pretend she’s this new or innovated concept.

[Frontier]

Joker War is complete. It’s not too early to say he didn’t do anything with them, because he didn’t. For example you can literally remove Nightwing’s return and it wouldn’t impact the story. Despite Joker War eating up like 6 months of his solo. He padded his story, and market that moment for his story, but nothing was really done with it. Like I said, it’s low hanging fruit. Bringing Nightwing back is easy brownie points. But it was almost worthless narratively. Same with putting Bat symbols on the girls, or putting Babs in a chair. But all that speaks to a section of the audience, that will eat up those member berries, despite them being shallow and half cooked. Even Punchline, she looks cool and speculators ate her up, but she was not a new concept there was a necessity for. But she seems to have hit so I’m not gonna knock her. But let’s not pretend she’s this new or innovated concept.

Joker War ran into the same Batfamily problem King had in his run. I guess at least King didn't try to give Harley panel time he should've given to more relevant characters.

The stuff with Steph, Cass, and Babs seems to be developing on an ongoing basis past that arc. I appreciate that Tynion actually cares about these characters and wants to use them how he feels is best for them.

Punchline's not an entirely new concept but she's one that, again, hasn't been fulfilled since DC tried to spin Harley as a non-villain and Tynion is trying to make her distinct from Harley so she's not a retread.

[phonogram12]

Even Joker War, as over hyped and marketed as it was, in the end it was just a generic Batman vs Joker story. Compare that to War of Jokes and Riddles, sure Jokes and Riddles had far less pandering, but I find the story itself far more memorable just on the concept alone.

While the War of Jokes and Riddles wasn't my favorite King arc (not by a longshot), I have to say, "generic" is the perfect word I would use to describe Tynion's Batman writing. It all just seems like fan pandering.

[Frontier]

While the War of Jokes and Riddles wasn't my favorite King arc (not by a longshot), I have to say, "generic" is the perfect word I would use to describe Tynion's Batman writing. It all just seems like fan pandering.

I feel like King could be guilty of that too, at least when it came to depicting the Batman/Catwoman relationship and stuff like "Everyone Loves Ivy."

I guess it just depends on whether you're the kind of fan being pandered too .

[prepmaster]

Catwoman flip flopping - check
Riddler being gimmick villain - check
Joker causing mass chaos like Endgame & targeting Batfam members - check
Bringing in popular characters like Deathstroke to boost sales - check
Coming up with anti Batman, anti Harley characters to be villains - check
Batman saving his villains or attempting to save them (Penguin, Joker) - check
Batman stopping other vigilantes from killing criminals - check

What other cliches that i havent come up with?

[lemonpeace]

Catwoman flip flopping - check
Riddler being gimmick villain - check
Joker causing mass chaos like Endgame & targeting Batfam members - check
Bringing in popular characters like Deathstroke to boost sales - check
Coming up with anti Batman, anti Harley characters to be villains - check
Batman saving his villains or attempting to save them (Penguin, Joker) - check
Batman stopping other vigilantes from killing criminals - check

What other cliches that i havent come up with?

most if not all of these are present in pretty much every Batman run....even King's....even Snyder's....

also, how many "anti-Harley" characters have their been that it's a "cliche"? that one in particular is a reach.

[prepmaster]

most if not all of these are present in pretty much every Batman run....even King's....even Snyder's....

So im not allowed to complain about the cliches? Its quite obvious that there were too many popular rogues, Batfam characters that were underutilized and unnecessarily used for what could be seen as a generic story.

[Frontier]

So im not allowed to complain about the cliches? Its quite obvious that there were too many popular rogues, Batfam characters that were underutilized and unnecessarily used for what could be seen as a generic story.

I at least feel like Tynion cares more about the Batfamily than King did, even if that didn't equate to giving them as much screentime as Harley Quinn.

[prepmaster]

I at least feel like Tynion cares more about the Batfamily than King did, even if that didn't equate to giving them as much screentime as Harley Quinn.

The problem with Batfam is that its too big. A story cant simply have too many protagonists, especially when new writers want to introduce their own new characters.

[Frontier]

The problem with Batfam is that its too big. A story cant simply have too many protagonists, especially when new writers want to introduce their own new characters.

They don't need to be protagonists. I mean, ultimately in Batman stories the Batfamily are supporting characters to Batman, but it's important that they be relevant supporting characters.

[J. D. Guy]

So im not allowed to complain about the cliches? Its quite obvious that there were too many popular rogues, Batfam characters that were underutilized and unnecessarily used for what could be seen as a generic story.

lemonpeace's point was that it is unreasonable to conveniently complain about Bat-verse storytelling conventions that you personally hate and find "cliché" right when Tynion is writing, when pretty much everyone who's been on the mainline Batman books for some length of time, including every contemporary writer, has "indulged" these "clichés" as a normal and in fact anticipated facet of telling Batman stories.

As it stands, you're ranting, and this isn't the thread for that.