Opinions on Tynion’s run so far..

[Godlike13]

They don't need to be protagonists. I mean, ultimately in Batman stories the Batfamily are supporting characters to Batman, but it's important that they be relevant supporting characters.

Not all Batfamily are supporting characters, a lot of them were designed to be spin offs. Quite a bit of the Batfamily's character don't really conform to supporting roles. And the few ones that do, well they have to keep biting the bullet.

lemonpeace's point was that it is unreasonable to conveniently complain about Bat-verse storytelling conventions that you personally hate and find "cliché" right when Tynion is writing, when pretty much everyone who's been on the mainline Batman books for some length of time, including every contemporary writer, has "indulged" these "clichés" as a normal and in fact anticipated facet of telling Batman stories.

As it stands, you're ranting, and this isn't the thread for that.

Ranting? Thats far from a rant. There's a difference between there being clichés and abusing clichés.

[Frontier]

Not all Batfamily are supporting characters, a lot of them were designed to be spin offs. Quite a bit of the Batfamily's character don't really conform to supporting roles. And the few ones that do, well they have to keep biting the bullet.

I mean, again, my point wasn't that they're supposed to be supporting characters or designed that way but that when they appear in Batman stories they are basically supporting characters. Bruce's supporting cast is usually more his family or the GCPD than it is anyone outside his life as Batman.

Like a Nightwing book isn't about Batman, Babs, or Damian because they are decidedly leading characters but they are part of Dick's supporting cast in his stories.

[J. D. Guy]

Ranting? Thats far from a rant. There's a difference between there being clichés and abusing clichés.

That's rather beside the point being made.

Also, low-key rants are still rants, particularly when the poster goes on to tangent about "too many Batfamily members/too much focus", which in itself is a tired, trite and cliched complaint. Which, again, this is not supposed to be the thread for that.

[Godlike13]

I mean, again, my point wasn't that they're supposed to be supporting characters or designed that way but that when they appear in Batman stories they are basically supporting characters. Bruce's supporting cast is usually more his family or the GCPD than it is anyone outside his life as Batman.

Like a Nightwing book isn't about Batman, Babs, or Damian because they are decidedly leading characters but they are part of Dick's supporting cast in his stories.

Ya, and point is not all of then are very good at that. A bunch of their characters weren't made for it, and don't particularly conform to supporting roles. You can throw Babs or Damian in a Nightwing story and they can easily fall into a supporting roles. There's precedence, shared history, and Babs and Damian's characters have been shown to compliment Dick's. Now though can the same be said with Cass or Tim or Jason for example. Not so much. You can't just throw them into Nightwing and have them naturally fall into a supporting role. Their characters and motivations don't really conform in that. And now lets take Babs, and Damian, and Tim, and Cass, and Jason, and Bruce and more throw them all into a Nightwing story. That's chaos. And its the same with Batman. Even his strongest supporting characters get messed up in that. Look at Nightwing and how superfluous he was in Joker War.

[Godlike13]

That's rather beside the point being made.

Also, low-key rants are still rants, particularly when the poster goes on to tangent about "too many Batfamily members/too much focus", which in itself is a tired, trite and cliched complaint. Which, again, this is not supposed to be the thread for that.

Its not. Your trying to unfairly dismiss his criticism as a rant, but it wasn't a rant. The posters criticisms were short and to the point. And valid even if one might not share the criticism. Which is relevant to the topic of this tread. Opinions on Tynion's run. Over uses clichés, bloated his story with a Batfamily that too big. Thats not a rant. Those are pretty short and valid criticisms relevant to the topic and discussion.

[Frontier]

Ya, and point is not all of then are very good at that. A bunch of their characters weren't made for it, and don't particularly conform to supporting roles. You can throw Babs or Damian in a Nightwing story and they can easily fall into a supporting roles. There's precedence, shared history, and Babs and Damian's have shown to compliment Dick's. Now can the same be said with Cass or Tim or Jason for example. Not so much. You can't just throw them into a Nightwing and have them naturally fall into a supporting role. Their characters and motivations don't really assist in that. And now lets take Babs, and Damian, and Tim, and Cass, and Jason, and more throw them into a Nightwing story. That's chaos. And its the same with Batman. Even his strongest supporting characters get messed up in that. Look at Nightwing and how superfluous he was in Joker War.

I disagree. I see no reason that Cass, Tim, or Jason can't play supporting role in other characters' books or in guest appearances. They've done it before. I loved Dick and Tim's team-ups.

There is definitely an issue with the Batfamily feeling like wallpaper in big "event" stories like Joker War, but that's been a problem since Snyder. But at least Snyder didn't try and force Harley into the story at the expense of the Batfamily.

[Pohzee]

I think even if you enjoy all of the Batfamily members, it's never satisfying to have everyone all in one place. Even for bigger stories, if it was just Cass and Jason one time, or Duke and Stephanie, or Barbara and Damian, it'd be a lot more satisfying. Give it some variety to satisfy everyone, but don't throw them all together.

[Godlike13]

I disagree. I see no reason that Cass, Tim, or Jason can't play supporting role in other characters' books or in guest appearances. They've done it before. I loved Dick and Tim's team-ups.

There is definitely an issue with the Batfamily feeling like wallpaper in big "event" stories like Joker War, but that's been a problem since Snyder. But at least Snyder didn't try and force Harley into the story at the expense of the Batfamily.

Since Nightwing was the example, Ill give you one for each. Continuing to use Nightwing as the example. Cass is infallible, Tim turns him stupid, and Jason forces him into the straight man. Show me a Nightwing story or guest appearance where it's not Dick who has to conform or become lesser to make them fit. There is the train issue with Tim, but thats pretty much it.

Now lets go back to Batman. Those characters bring similar issues even to him as supporting characters. Those are just not characters that easily fit into that role. Infallible characters in general don't easily fall into supporting roles, Tim was the more solo Robin for a reason, and with Jason he was reintroduced as Red Hood to be antagonist to Batman. Now its not that they can't do it, but its not as easy for them to fall into supporting role. We see it a lot now where its Batman who comes out looking like he a-hole or lesser in stories where the family are involved.

[Frontier]

I think even if you enjoy all of the Batfamily members, it's never satisfying to have everyone all in one place. Even for bigger stories, if it was just Cass and Jason one time, or Duke and Stephanie, or Barbara and Damian, it'd be a lot more satisfying. Give it some variety to satisfy everyone, but don't throw them all together.

The problem with the Batfamily is that writers either ignore everybody, barely spotlight anyone, or just throw them all together at once. There's no balance or focus on developing core relationships.

Since Nightwing was the example, Ill give you one for each. Continuing to use Nightwing as the example. Cass is infallible, Tim turns him stupid, and Jason forces him into the straight man. Show me a Nightwing story or guest appearance where it's not Dick who has to conform or become lesser to make them fit. There is the train issue with Tim, but thats pretty much it.

I've never seen Cass as infallible. She may be a beast in a fight but she has more than enough emotional and social issues that make it difficult for her.

Tim turning him stupid feels more like a recent invention than a core of their dynamic. I never felt that in their team-ups.

I don't think Jason has to turn him into the straightman. I think they can banter off each other well when written right.

Now lets go back to Batman. Those characters bring similar issues even to him as supporting characters. Those are just not characters that easily fit into that role. Infallible characters in general don't easily fall into supporting roles, Tim was the more solo Robin for a reason, and with Jason he was reintroduced as Red Hood to be antagonist to Batman. Now its not that they can't do it, but its not as easy for them to fall into supporting role. We see it a lot now where its Batman who comes out looking like he a-hole or lesser in stories where the family are involved.

I thought Tim was a great supporting character for Bruce even when he was having solo adventures as Rohin, and Jason has developed from his UtRH days even if writers don't always acknowledge it. It's probably because they tend to serve such generic roles in these stories because there's too much going on that they feel like caricatures of themselves and we don't really get to see them bounce off Bruce much anymore.

I don't think Batman's treatment of the family is related to that compared to it just being a stigma of the portrayal of Batman with the Batfamily in the late 90's which influenced a lot of writers.

[prepmaster]

When we look at Tynion's run as something to boost sales after King's run then we understand why things were written the way it was. A Batman vs Deathstroke fight that is off panel. A Batman vs Joker story that is rushed. Even new villain like Punchline was written to be like a Villain Sue that rolls over popular characters just so that she can be hyped up as a threat. Tynion is good at giving what people expect from the characters but they were there just to make appearances or be gimmick villains. So far im not impressed.

[The no face guy]

I’ve recently decided to catch up on some Batman stuff and I noticed that James Tynion is back on the title. I really enjoyed his last Detective Comics run. How does this run compare to runs by Snyder, King etc.?

So far so good, if you liked his Detective Comics work you'll like his Batman stuff.

I thought Joker's War, particularly the lead up, was far better than King's City of Bane, and now that that's over, he seems to be ready to settle in with his own regular storylines.

[Vordan]

It’s been fine so far, I’ve enjoyed it. However it feels unambitious and outright repetitive so far. Joker War felt like it had a list of cliches it needed to meet and dutifully made sure each were included, from Joker screeching that this time he’s serious about taking out Batman, to reuniting the Batfamily after they all got driven off, only for the Family to be utterly superfluous to the overall plot. I guess Bruce losing his wealth could potentially have consequences but it doesn’t really look like it will be that big a change. However Tynion gets a pass for me with Joker War because he was writing that when the abandonment of 5G happened and Didio got the boot, along with the editorial purge that had to have caused chaos behind the scenes.

However this next arc is pretty repetitive itself. Ghost-Maker is another cliche we’ve seen before, two in fact! The rival Bruce made in his youth during training (Nobody/Hush) and the guy who thinks Bruce is a wuss for not killing (Red Hood/Deathstroke/Nobody). So I’m disappointed with how repetitive it feels. Tynion has plans for Scarecrow though, and given I’ve loved his indie horror books I am absolutely staying on until the Scarecrow arc for sure.

Jimenez has been fire throughout though, as have the other artists on the book. They help make up for the writing.

[jpmst17]

I've enjoyed it so far. Tynion can be too wordy for me at times, but it has been fine so far

[prepmaster]

Ah i remember another cliche. It wouldnt be a Batman vs Deathstroke fight if Slade doesnt jump onto Batwing. lol