Rank these characters!

[Jcogginsa]

Mm, kinda feels like CBR Rumbles is the last refuge on the internet as far as reasonably fair debating with a firm observance of rules and reasonable conclusions drawn about characters based on consistent high end feats for the characters in question. But stuff like this? Threatens the very fabric of Rumbles.

Edit: I do agree with Nik, a mod ruling on the WBH feats isn't necessary, but it has come up a few times this year if memory serves. My hope is that folks who have read it will draw more reasonable conclusions about the feat than those pushing an agenda of another sort. On the other hand, if it becomes a thing...maybe a mod ruling will become necessary. I suppose we'll see.

I don't see how this is threatens the fabric of Rumbles.

At the end of the day, the stuff being done in this thread is the same as the stuff being done in a regular thread. Discussing a character's feats, and determining which character is better than another.

As for the WBH thing, I asked for a Mod ruling because you refused to actually engage with me in an honest debate.

I posted a logical argument for why the Hulk wasn't amped, and you refused to try to and counter my logic. You just repeated "Red She-Hulk got amped so how can you say Bruce didn't" over and over, completely ignoring the fact that no one wished fro Bruce to get stronger, even after I pointed it out.

You kept saying that "Hulk is doing stuff stronger than he's ever been shown doing" and completely ignoring the fact that the story gives a completely different explanation for why the Hulk was stronger than he'd been shown before.

I asked for you to provide a citation on the Wishing Well amping up the Hulk, and you never once provided one. All you did was endlessly say that "The Hulk made a wish".

You completely failed to make a coherent argument of any kind, and then you had the gall to say that I was the one who wasn't following the rules.

[Nik Hasta]

I don't see how this is threatens the fabric of Rumbles.

At the end of the day, the stuff being done in this thread is the same as the stuff being done in a regular thread. Discussing a character's feats, and determining which character is better than another.

See, without touching the feat in question at all, this is precisely my point.

You and Cronus have a difference of opinion on the interpretation of a feat. Said feat has been discussed at length from both sides multiple times in the history of the board. You are engaging in debate. This is entirely normal and everyday stuff.

However, despite this, you have decided to try and get a specific interpretation of the feat - whichever way the mods would go - enshrined into Rumbles rules and remove that debate from the equation. This is bad for Rumbles; it sets a poor precedent for mod intervention and it goes against the spirit of the board; debate.

I would advise you to either improve your arguments and win the debate or, if you feel your opponent is engaging in bad faith, to consign this argument to infinite pile of "arguments with no clear winner," and move on. You do not need to go to the mods and they should not weigh on it. It's not a good use of their power.

[Jcogginsa]

See, without touching the feat in question at all, this is precisely my point.

You and Cronus have a difference of opinion on the interpretation of a feat. Said feat has been discussed at length from both sides multiple times in the history of the board. You are engaging in debate. This is entirely normal and everyday stuff.

However, despite this, you have decided to try and get a specific interpretation of the feat - whichever way the mods would go - enshrined into Rumbles rules and remove that debate from the equation. This is bad for Rumbles; it sets a poor precedent for mod intervention and it goes against the spirit of the board; debate.

I would advise you to either improve your arguments and win the debate or, if you feel your opponent is engaging in bad faith, to consign this argument to infinite pile of "arguments with no clear winner," and move on. You do not need to go to the mods and they should not weigh on it. It's not a good use of their power.

I tried that. He wouldn't stop.

[Nik Hasta]

Also, I was quite drunk last night and perhaps a bit looser than I would be otherwise so I'm aiming for a water-under-the-bridge approach here but I do want to address this point:

You know that's ironic because, discounting myself, you've probably contributed the most to this thread with your observations, and played the biggest part in keeping it going.

My contributions to this thread have been purely corrections in instances where you have made assertions about characters that are based an incomplete/incorrect knowledge of said character and their feats. My aim in posting in this thread is purely to try and prevent the spread of misinformation.

I am not invested in the continuation of a thread that I have openly stated I think is flawed in concept but I am invested in making sure that you aren't misrepresenting characters I actually do know about.

That's it. If you continue to have bad takes, I will likely continue to correct them because they are incorrect.

[big_adventure]

I'm going to follow Nik here: I don't think this is a great thread concept. That doesn't mean that we won't throw our two cents in where we feel it's valid, but the basic tenant of the thread is kind of hard, since: a) many of these guys simply don't have the right feats for the list and b) there are simply too many characters on the list to begin with.

Spider Man has probably lifted something heavier than Goku ever has, but I don't think that anyone will argue that Spidy is stronger than Goku. If they do, well, they probably just got de-elected from being president and are refusing to acknowledge it or something, as far as questionable interpretations of reality go.

[Jcogginsa]

My contributions to this thread have been purely corrections in instances where you have made assertions about characters that are based an incomplete/incorrect knowledge of said character and their feats. My aim in posting in this thread is purely to try and prevent the spread of misinformation.

I am not invested in the continuation of a thread that I have openly stated I think is flawed in concept but I am invested in making sure that you aren't misrepresenting characters I actually do know about.

That's it. If you continue to have bad takes, I will likely continue to correct them because they are incorrect.

And how is correcting incorrect takes in this thread any different from correcting incorrect takes in a standard rumble?

I'm going to follow Nik here: I don't think this is a great thread concept. That doesn't mean that we won't throw our two cents in where we feel it's valid, but the basic tenant of the thread is kind of hard, since: a) many of these guys simply don't have the right feats for the list and b) there are simply too many characters on the list to begin with.

Spider Man has probably lifted something heavier than Goku ever has, but I don't think that anyone will argue that Spidy is stronger than Goku. If they do, well, they probably just got de-elected from being president and are refusing to acknowledge it or something, as far as questionable interpretations of reality go.

I agree that I put too many characters in the thread at the start. That was just over enthusiasm on my part

[big_adventure]

We've all made questionable posts and questionable threads. I, personally, appreciate the effort you have put into this thread and others. This one was just a LITTLE bit too large. Maybe next time stick with 10 at a time or so, then we can merge the winners?

[Jcogginsa]

We've all made questionable posts and questionable threads. I, personally, appreciate the effort you have put into this thread and others. This one was just a LITTLE bit too large. Maybe next time stick with 10 at a time or so, then we can merge the winners?

Thing is, I organized them into groups of ten to make that a possibility. Just, make it know that it will be a thing from the onset rather than introducing the idea later one.

And I want there to be enough characters that a variety of different "weight classes" to develop. So there's talk throughout the list, not just about who is on top.

Anyhow, I've reduced the amount of characters currently in the thread to 30, here they are.

1. Superman
2. Batman
3. Wonder Woman
4. The Flash
5. Captain America
6. Iron Man
7. Thor Odinson
8. The Hulk
9. Invincible
10. Scrooge McDuck
11. Son Goku
12. Naruto Uzumaki
13. Monkey D. Luffy
14. Ichigo Kurosaki
15. Astro Boy
16. Conan the Barbarian
17. Samurai Jack
18. Godzilla
19. Gamera
20. T-800
21. Jason Voorhees
22. Ultraman
23. Sonic the Hedgehog
24. Mario
25. Kratos
26. Pikachu
27. Popeye the Sailor Man
28. Po the Panda
29. Shrek
30. Stitch

[Cronus]

I don't see how this is threatens the fabric of Rumbles.
At the end of the day, the stuff being done in this thread is the same as the stuff being done in a regular thread. Discussing a character's feats, and determining which character is better than another.

I don't see it that way. You aren't discussing feats so much as you're throwing out unsupported ideas then scrambling to try and give some semblance of cohesiveness to what you're saying after I remark on the inconsistencies of what you're saying, not to mention, what actually went down in those books.

As for the WBH thing, I asked for a Mod ruling because you refused to actually engage with me in an honest debate.

No, let's be clear. You snuck over to another thread unbeknownst to most until now, where you knew a moderator frequents and requested a mod ruling in the hopes of shutting me up. So, as far as "good faith", you might want to practice what you preach? Because I don't see any honor or honesty in that do you?

I posted a logical argument for why the Hulk wasn't amped, and you refused to try to and counter my logic.

Oh but I have. You haven't come up with a legit answer yet.

Here's your explanation for how Jen got amped by Bruce's wish but Bruce wasn't amped by his own wish (which was, "we're going to fight, and die and fight some more").

So, you said this:

Because, and I have already explained this to you, THE HULK MADE THE WISH THAT AMPED UP RED SHE-HULK.

Then I further inquired:

So? How were they amped but Bruce wasn’t? Answer?

Your response?

Because no one ever made a wish that would have amped up Bruce. It's an incredibly simple concept.

Notwithstanding your condescension, your response is belied by the incomprehensibility of the statement. Right? I mean, you just said, Bruce made the wish? Did I misunderstand?
The better question is: Can you show me a scan with some narration or dialogue that shows Bruce parsed his wish in a way that
1) powered up RSH but
2) didn't also power-up Bruce?

So, not so incredibly simple as you would have the members of this forum believe right? I mean, you're banking on the fact that (it seems) most haven't read the story and hoping you can get away with discrediting me under guise of everyone having not read the actual story in question and your bravado?

Then we get this. Very telling.

Bruce's power up is explained entirely by "He's using the most powerful form of the Hulk,

That’s not a feat, but just more speculation on your part, see how that works? Because you say it and really, really believe it, doesn’t give it credence.

Also, the problem with this is his most powerful form as you describe it, and the following "most powerful feat" for said character, all takes place within the context of the Heart of the Monster storyline...which is rife with the wishing well magic under discussion. A simple concept? No, not really. Not when you can't give a logical, reasonable, credible response. Unless, you're trying to claim another instance of so called WB Hulk having a feat that I'm not aware of in another book?

which is retroactively revealed to be even stronger than it's previous depiction by stating that he was holding back in WWH".

Still, more statements unsupported by actual planet busting. The first appearance of WB Hulk is in issue 5 of WW Hulk, where he stomps real hard on the ground as his first "planetary level feat". It caused seismic activity. The statement from that book was "two more footsteps like that, Mr. President...and we lost the eastern seaboard." So, according to you, it’s okay for these forums to move to planet busting from there right?

easternseaboard.jpg

It's not a shocker that guys who couldn't beat the regular Hulk wind up needing massive power boosts in order to fight the single most powerful form of Hulk.

A thousand times? Let that sink in. A thousand times. Wendigo and Bi Beast, two heavy hitters needed to be amped a thousand times each to compete with WB Hulk?

You just repeated "Red She-Hulk got amped so how can you say Bruce didn't" over and over, completely ignoring the fact that no one wished fro Bruce to get stronger, even after I pointed it out.

And you keep ignoring it was the same wish. What about this do you not get? How does, “We’re going to fight, die and fight some more” translate to “Betty was powered up, but Bruce was not?” Can you explain that without strange mental hop scotch?

I keep repeating it because you have yet to give an honest, clear explanation.

You "pointing it out" was a reference to “this being Hulk’s strongest incarnation”, a statement and another statement from WW Hulk where Hulk stamps on the ground, which needed to be repeated twice to have the effect of sinking the eastern seaboard, according to the dialogue. Which...actually never happened did it?

Yeah. Thinner and thinner all the time.

You kept saying that "Hulk is doing stuff stronger than he's ever been shown doing"

Not really. That was your argument. Mine was, "why is he NOT stronger, but Jen was as a result of the same wish?"

and completely ignoring the fact that the story gives a completely different explanation for why the Hulk was stronger than he'd been shown before.

No. I explained why he was doing something he's never done. His wish, along with his enemies malevolent, errant wishes, all served to help Bruce achieve what he wanted, "to fight, die and fight some more". That very wish, is what powered up Jen.

Again, why wouldn’t the same wish power up Bruce?

I asked for you to provide a citation on the Wishing Well amping up the Hulk, and you never once provided one. All you did was endlessly say that "The Hulk made a wish".

And I told you, in light of all the "caveats" as other posters on these forums have referred to them (the wishes), the burden of proof was on you, especially in light of the fact that it was you who said Bruce made the wish that powered up RSH, but somehow that didn't power up Bruce.

You still haven't provided a credible answer, instead insisting that statements from World War Hulk and him stamping on the eastern seaboard as well as your statement that “this is the strongest version of Hulk ever…”, should be enough to support Hulk being a planet buster. Oh, and Hulk supposedly being the angriest he's ever been, you also mentioned. That statement has been made in more than one Hulk book over the years. Basically, your argument is composed of lots of statements from you and you ignoring your own arguments.

You completely failed to make a coherent argument of any kind,

You're projecting. At this point, I've provided enough evidence to indicate the feat of WB Hulk planet busting is not clean.

and then you had the gall to say that I was the one who wasn't following the rules.

You aren't. You are basing most of what you are saying on statements and subsequent speculation on your part.

Earlier, I made the statement I was in agreement with a poster that a mod ruling wasn’t necessary. But at this point, my question is this: what is the point of a mod ruling? When I review the stickied mod rulings, I see statements like these:

“Cassandra Cain is a bullet timer

This particular subject has been debated at length, and Cassandra Cain as Batgirl in the Post-Crisis DC universe (pre-Nu52) was indeed a bullet timer of the high-end sort.”

“Deathstroke Is Not God

Deathstroke defeating the JLA was not a valid portrayal of his abilities, being full of inconsistencies in how the JLA was portrayed and being inconsistent with his usual portrayal.

Likewise Deathstroke hitting the Flash, any Flash, is PIS.”

I think there should be discussion and the facts fleshed out. But at what point in time do we just start chasing our tails on the same subject, over and over again? At what point in time do we depart from discussion into becoming a forum that just facilitates fan fiction and ideas based on statements not really supported by feats? This discussion reminds me an old feat from JLA where Wally West evacuates an entire city of like half a million people in what amounts to him moving trillions of times light speed. Yet…the narration in the book clearly says he was near light. The math, the feat itself, didn’t match up with the narration, but likely we all understood the writer wasn’t hired for his writing ability because he got a degree in advanced mathematics from MIT. Yet, I’ve seen it argued “we just give Wally a free pass on this one because, y’know…it’s Wally”.

I see the same thinking seemingly growing around this feat from HOTM. I do see acknowledgement from other posters that, “yeah there are asterisks around this feat from HOTM”, but in the same breath I see, “but yeah, Hulk is generally seen as a character that effs with stuff on a planetary level”--which, by the way, I'm okay with. Planet buster though? In light of the evidence, not so much.

Sorry, guys. I’m not hand waving the feat from HOTM based on 'he effs with planetary level stuff". And I’m sure as hell not giving it a pass based on jconsigga’s argument.

The feat in question is not clean. My suggestion is, throw it out as was originally suggested.

On the other hand, I would love to hear another perspective from anyone that has read the HOTM story arc other than jconsigga. Maybe I missed something?

[Jcogginsa]

Thing is, I organized them into groups of ten to make that a possibility. Just, make it know that it will be a thing from the onset rather than introducing the idea later one.

And I want there to be enough characters that a variety of different "weight classes" to develop. So there's talk throughout the list, not just about who is on top.

Anyhow, I've reduced the amount of characters currently in the thread to 30, here they are.

1. Superman
2. Batman
3. Wonder Woman
4. The Flash
5. Captain America
6. Iron Man
7. Thor Odinson
8. The Hulk
9. Invincible
10. Scrooge McDuck
11. Son Goku
12. Naruto Uzumaki
13. Monkey D. Luffy
14. Ichigo Kurosaki
15. Astro Boy
16. Conan the Barbarian
17. Samurai Jack
18. Godzilla
19. Gamera
20. T-800
21. Jason Voorhees
22. Ultraman
23. Sonic the Hedgehog
24. Mario
25. Kratos
26. Pikachu
27. Popeye the Sailor Man
28. Po the Panda
29. Shrek
30. Stitch

So, I'll try to start the speed feats later on tonight, but in the meantime here's my draft for the new, abbreviated list. As always, I welcome suggested changes

1. The Hulk
2. Thor
3. Superman
4. Wonder Woman
5. Goku
6. Invincible
7. Godzilla
8. Gamera
9. Ultraman
10. Naruto Uzumaki
11. Popeye the Sailor Man
12. Monkey D. Luffy
13. Astro Boy
14. The Thing
15. Sonic the Hedgehog
16. Kratos
17. Iron Man
18. Mario
19. Samurai Jack
20. Pikachu
21. Po the Panda
22. Stitch
23. Scrooge McDuck
24. The Terminator
25. Captain America
26. Shrek
27. Conan the Barbarian
28. Wally West
29. Batman
30. Jason Voorhees

[Jcogginsa]

Speed Feats part one

Superman

Nu52
-Reads "every medical text ever published." in a short amount of time.
-Intercepts attacks by travelling at speeds that rival lightning.
-Accelerates to 25,000 MPH on foot then jumps into space.
-Faster than a speeding bullet.
-Swoops down at 1/1000th of a second.
-Takes 60 days of non stop flight to get back to Earth from the opposite side of the universe. Also seemingly escaped from a black hole.
-Flies from Pluto to Earth in moments.
-Flies at thousands of miles per second looking for Doomsday.


Post Crisis
-Quickly travels 2000 feet underground from orbit.
-Stated to be capable of travelling to the Sun and back in less than a minute.
-Circumnavigates the sun. Note, he did not get a boost from closeness to the sun.
-Flies from Vega to Earth.
-Flies to Andromeda.
-Reads 27,343 letters in 3 minutes.
-Takes Batman to a different location in an instant.
-Reacts in a microsecond to save a baby. And again.
-Flies to the Sun.
-Tackles Darkseid to the sun.
-Carries Wonder Woman to the sun.
-Accelerates his perception until it seems time stopped. WoG claims he can perceive attoseconds.

Rebirth
-Faster than a speeding bullet. 1,2.
-Punches Doomsday thousands of times in seconds.
-Saves Lois and Jon from bullets.
-Flies hundreds of meters to catch a bullet being fired at point blank range. Displays awareness of femtoseconds and attoseconds..
-Rebuilds the moon.


Batman

Nu52
-Pulls girl out of the way of a crashing airplane.
-Seemingly moves FTE to Lois Lane and Catwoman, in broad daylight.
-Blitz a cop.
-Dodges grenade blasts and gets behind Batwoman.
-Post-Crisis Superman estimates that he's "maybe a bit faster" than Post-Crisis Batman.
-Catches Crossbow bolt at point blank range.
-Strikes a baseball thrown by Superman. It's stated that he did so by calculating how fast Superman could throw the ball without it being destroyed by the force.
-Shields himself from a firing squad. The shield was already in his hand, but logically he must have held it up either the instant the trigger was pulled, or afterwards.
-Dodges a point blank gunshot.
-Does gunshots from Deadshot.
-Backflips to evade gunfire.
-Jumps from the batplane at the exact right moment to rescue a hostage by leaping through a van.
-Jumps from one speeding boat to another.

Post Crisis
-Saves thug from speeding train, then dodges gunfire.
-Evades car.
-Saves woman from truck.
-Saves guy from a missile.
-Dodges truck.
-Moves FTE behind a person looking directly at him and holding on gun on him, mid sentence.. And again.
-Disappears in front of people looking directly at him.
- Projectiles that can move "almost faster than the eye can follow" are "far slower than the batarang."
-Catches and breaks two arrows fired by a crossbow before catching a third.
-Intercepts Green Arrow's arrow with a batarang.
-Blocks point blank bullet with his gauntlet.
-Perceives Bullets in slow motion.
-Weaves through hail of gunfire.
-Dodges machine gun fire from behind.
-Evades gunfire in midair.
-Dodges gunfire from behind a door, on instinct.
-Hears "The thick bounce of the air" and dodges a sniper shot, though he is too slow to stop it from hitting Mr. Freeze. Batman describes bullet as travelling at 1200 meters a second.
-Jumps into the driving seat of a moving batmobile.
-Jumps into a moving bus from the batmobile.

Wonder Woman

Nu52/Rebirth
-Moves large satellite dish into the path of Superman's heat vision.
-Deflects gunfire from an M230 chain gun.
-Blocks Darkseid's Omega Beams. Which could tag Superman and almost hit the Flash.
-Deflects bullets from multiple soldiers.
-Blocks more of Superman's heat vision.
-Ties up Superman while he's the God of Strength.

Post-Crisis
-Multiple cases of deflecting bullets.
-Deflecting bullets from a hand gun, while unaware of what a gun is.
-Deflects trillions of fragments of a shattered god travelling from every corner of the universe.
-Tags a villain moving fast enough to be in multiple places at once, while blind folded.
-Protects Superman from Darkseid's Omega beams.
-Ties up Amazo. Blocks Amazo's heat vision.
-Deflect's Superman's heat vision.
-Runs around the earth, searching.
-Deflects weapons made of concentrated light.
-Dodges stingers fired at 1500 rounds a second.
-Lasso's Jesse Quick before she can enter the speed force.
-Claims to be faster than Superman. Batman backs her up by claims it's like comparing Usain Bolt and Bruce Lee.


Wally West

Pre-Flashpoint
-Runs fast enough to time travel to the end of time.
-"It's a little known fact that death can't travel faster than the speed of light, but Wally can."
-Runs fast enough to escape a black hole, while lending someone else enough speed to do the same.
-Outruns the black racer at superluminal speeds.
-As Kid Flash, claimed to be able to cross the Earth seven times in a second.
-Wins a race with Wonder Woman.
-Catches bullets at point blank range and then reloads the gun. Claims he could have caught them if he started from 10 miles away.
-Creates a tornado faster than and electron can jump shells.
-[URL="https://imgur.com/a/iwNel"]Fights someone who can attack in the space of "a billionth of a second" then punches them in the face at lightspeed./URL].
-Looks through a crowd of 500,000 people in a picosecond.
-Claims to have deactivated Mirror Master's gun in a picosecond.
-Travels from Buenos Aires to Beijing in .003 seconds, having stopped to save a kid on the way.
-Outruns his own shadow.
-Evacuates 532,000 people to a distance safe from a nuclear blast in .00001 microseconds.
-Evacuates people off a bridge, memorizes 215 books on engineering, bridge construction, and steel structure, then rebuilds the bridge in under 30 seconds.
-Pushes Hunter Zolomon at 100,000 miles a second.
-Moves fast enough to be in two places at once.


00000
Speed list so far

1. Wally West
2. Wonder Woman
3. Superman
4. Batman

[Jcogginsa]

Captain America.

- Dodges and blocks Bullets. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21.
-Avoids or Blocks energy attacks. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7.
-Dodges and blocks missiles. 1,2,3,4,5.
-While poisoned, breaks through bonds and catches a thrown spear which he then uses to deflect other spears.
-Dodges punches from the Hulk.
-Dodges an electrical attack once, but then gets hit by another.
-Avoids landmine explosion.
-Deflects shot from grenade launcher.
-Dodges lightning.

Iron Man

Extremis
-Blitz someone with enhanced senses.
-Can fly at mach 8.7.
-Armor has millisecond reactions.
-Dodges attacks from Spider-Man.
-Some of his brain functions operate at lightspeed.
-Dons armor before the heat of an explosion reaches him.
-Suit can isolate a signal within picoseconds.

Bleeding Edge
-Suits up mid explosion.
-Dodges energy attacks. 1,2.
-Suits up before Missile hits him.

Mark 42.
-Escapes a black hole.
-Blacks Lightning.

Space Armor Mark 5
-Dodges energy blasts. 1,2.
-Can achieve warp speed for interplanetary travel, but it's basic travel speed tops out at mach 10.

Thor Odinson

-Blocks bullets. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12.
-Blocks missiles. 1,2.
-Blocks energy blasts. 1,2,3,4.
-Dodges asteroids.
-Deflects shot from a mortar cannon.
-Reacts to a howitzer shell.
-Deflects Cap's shield.
-Rubs Mjolnir fast enough that the friction creates heat like a blast furnace.
-Flies through space at FTL speeds. Again.
-Crosses a solar system.
-Can time travel by swinging his hammer at exactly twice the speed of light.
-Throws Hammer to the edge of the galaxy and has it return in less than 60 seconds.
-Catches artillery shell.
-Microsecond reactions.

The Hulk

-Dodges Thor's Hammer.
-Catches Iron Man1,2.
-Catches Cap's Shield. 1,2.
-Can react to missiles. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9.
-Catches up to jet.
-Catches up to ship.
-Described as moving almost faster than the eye can see.
-Reacts to artillery and tank shells. 1,2,3,4.
-Dodges Bazooka.
-Dodging bullets.
-Transforms faster than bullets.
-Dodges Vision's solar laser.

00000

1. Wally West
2. Wonder Woman
3. Superman
4. Thor Odinson
5. The Hulk
6. Iron Man
7. Captain America
8. Batman

[Cody]

1. Yes, and two gods had dialogue explaining that the shockwaves were behaving abnormally.

I was explicitly shown to be the result of pure their strength clashing. They are at this brick level where things go weird just because they hit really hard(kinda like Superman One Million sending distortions through time just by punching really hard), we later get a monster during ToP punching through dimensions to attack people from different directions displayed as a pure showing of strength, and again between Tigers and Broly. And this topic annoys me, because everyon focuses onnthe god damn shockwaves while ignoring what is actually said in the show. The shockwaves were just the side effects of their fists clashing, and were acting abnormal due to Goku actively trying to absorb them into his body, as he himself explained when they stopped. This was why the beam clash was later going to bust the universe as well, it wasn't because of the shockwaves, but the energy coming from the condensed ball of ki. That is why the Elder Kai specifically said it was their clashes that was going to destroy the universe, not the shockwaves.

We also get that abnormality shown to us because we see the Earth, which Goku and Beerus are fighting in the atmosphere of, not get destroyed by a shockwave that later on disintegrates a planet further away.

None of what I said is my extrapolation, it is the literal explaination from the show.

It was explained in the show that the whole reason for the abnormality of the shockwaves were due to Goku actively trying to absorb them within his body, he was actively preventing them from doing too much damage, THAT, was the explaination given in the show.

Also explains why they got stronger the farther they went, they were away from Goku.

There's also evidence later on that Goku's physical strength does not match the strength put into his energy blasts. Goku is physically unable to escape a black hole, but his Kamehameha can get out of it.

That was due to Goku being beaten and tired from his extended battles with Jiren, Kefla, and Ribriannes universe, so we can't say that he couldn't normally break out of there. But yes, some ki attacks that they can charge, like the Kamehameha, generally help them put out more energy than they have, as first demonstrated by Roshi then later the fight with Raditz.

[Cronus]

Did you pull this list from a respect thread?

Also, a thing or two...to begin. Why not read the mod rulings? Stuff you are pushing on these lists have been decided. For example:

Captain America....Dodges and blocks Bullets

Cap is board ruled as CBPH. Incidentally, many of these mod rulings (as I hinted it above) are mod ruled for a reason. They have been debated....TO...DEATH...

You posting feats of Cap bullet timing therefore is, well...yeah.

The Hulk

-Dodges Thor's Hammer.
-Catches Iron Man1,2.
-Catches Cap's Shield. 1,2.
-Can react to missiles. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9.
-Catches up to jet.
-Catches up to ship.
-Described as moving almost faster than the eye can see.
-Reacts to artillery and tank shells. 1,2,3,4.
-Dodges Bazooka.
-Dodging bullets.
-Transforms faster than bullets.
-Dodges Vision's solar laser.

Alrighty, so. Hulk. This has come up here as well. Whizzing blur is about as best I can give to Hulk in reaction speed. I personally don't see Hulk as presented with super reaction speed, maybe someone could argue otherwise? But I'm not seeing it. His stuff is waayyy too inconsistent to call him bullet timer or hypersonic in reaction speed as I've heard him referred to. So, dodging bullets, missiles and what not? Nope. Not really.

1. Wally West
2. Wonder Woman
3. Superman
4. Thor Odinson
5. The Hulk
6. Iron Man
7. Captain America
8. Batman

Why do you have WW above Clark?

Also, regarding Cap, you said:

Captain America-Dodges punches from the Hulk.

Why is Hulk higher on your list than Cap, if Cap dodges punches from the Hulk? Can you explain?

[Jcogginsa]

It was explained in the show that the whole reason for the abnormality of the shockwaves were due to Goku actively trying to absorb them within his body, he was actively preventing them from doing too much damage, THAT, was the explaination given in the show.

Also explains why they got stronger the farther they went, they were away from Goku.

No, that doesn't explain it. If they were weaker closer because Goku was trying to absorb them, then there's nothing to make them stronger as they travel.

That was due to Goku being beaten and tired from his extended battles with Jiren, Kefla, and Ribriannes universe, so we can't say that he couldn't normally break out of there. But yes, some ki attacks that they can charge, like the Kamehameha, generally help them put out more energy than they have, as first demonstrated by Roshi then later the fight with Raditz.

Fair enough, I forgot to account for the exhaustion.