Help me understand the Justice Society through the years

[achilles]

Given the success of the Society in other media and that it has now been over four years since Rebirth kicked off, it's odd that DC has dragged their feet in returning the JSA in at least a mini-series set in current continuity.

Can't agree more.

[Jim Kelly]

Mine won't be a popular opinion with JSA fans. I think they're best left on another earth that lives in the 1940-1970 timeframe. I do think they aren't exactly advantaged by being on the same earth as the JLA, but admittedly am not sure if they'd do better on a separate Earth or just be ignored altogether (kinda feel similar about Captain Marvel, who I like a good bit more than the JSA).

I consider myself a Justice Society fan and I agree they are best left on another Earth.

It's funny to recall when I first encountered the Justice Society (many decades ago), I didn't know what they were supposed to be. Was this just a team that was supposed to have existed on another Earth but a totally made-up concept--or had they really existed in publishing history? When I found out they really had existed, that was exciting. If you take that away from them--if they're re-invented and overhauled to be some other group, without all that history and those stories--then it's just not as exciting.

This might mean that the J.S.A. end up as museum pieces--and I guess that's why a lot of fandom would rather just reboot them. But I'd rather go to the museum and admire them in the display cases, if that's the only way to keep the real artifacts intact.

[Tzigone]

If you take that away from them--if they're re-invented and overhauled to be some other group, without all that history and those stories--then it's just not as exciting.

I guess for me, I tend to think of them from the actual old comics, rather than the Earth-Two concept, which didn't do much for me. The other heroes (Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman) were timeslid, so why shouldn't they be (well, beyond there being no room for them when they have rebooted versions running around)? And it probably comes, too, from me more reading a few issues of each on solo titles and only a couple of them as a team. And they were no more WWII-centric (well, the ones I read - Flash, Spectre, and Hawkman) than Superman or Batman. Markedly less so than Wonder Woman (because they premiered earlier, one presumes). For most of those, I read like the first five stories, so didn't get that far into their runs, when sentiment and story material were changing. And, of course, Black Canary didn't debut until 1947 (I read some of hers, too), so I certainly don't associate her with WWII.

Anyway, the others had plenty of WWII-oriented adventures during America's time the war, then moved on from it. I don't really get what makes the JSA so tied to it, since they ended several years after the war did. Maybe if I read more of their team stuff. Especially if they kept hammering on it after the war was over. Certainly I think Wonder Woman floundered a bit in direction then. Captain America went away. All those created for the war specifically can easily be stuck there, and I get that. It's the ones created before with other story material that I don't get why stay so tied.

[CaptCleghorn]

Thank you for your help!

1985-1991, they were part of main continuity now but it was said they got trapped in a time reality or something. We mainly followed their kids Infinity Inc.

1991-1999- I would extend this to 2011, and include the fact of how they were training and recruiting up and coming heroes

2012- to now-Erased from continuity thanks to Doctor Manhattan, but thanks to Superman that’s been undone and they exist again. Last seen in Death Metal.

During these times were they Earth-2 characters? Or aged out/past superheroes from the main Earth's golden age?

The JSA were reintroduced as older heroes back in JLofA 21 and 22. The idea of people who were adults in the 1940s still being able to participate was very feasible in the early 1960's and a WW2 experience was part of the histories of some non-comic book characters of the time. But as time went on, the JSA's ages became more and more of an issue. Where someone 45 could be an active hero, one who was 65, 75, 85... made that situation harder to take.

[achilles]

The Earth 2 thing served a purpose I suppose back in the day, but in the modern era, it would just serve to put them in a ghetto, allowing DC to ignore them. It's what basically happened to the faux JSA in the nu51.33. I think it best they simply have their origin on the main Earth, with PG retconned to some other relative of Clark's, or a time lost ancestor or whatever, just so long as it's Krypton and El related. Either that, or she really is the only Krypton 2 survivor. But in that case, they should go a bit toward the Prime way, giving her some benefits that regular Kryptonians don't have.

But DC likes to ignore properties that don't have the potential to constantly tie in with League, Super, Bat, Wonder, Flash, or GL titles, so yeah, having them actually on Earth 2 wouldn't be wise IMO, given DC's history.

[Jim Kelly]

One of the things that Earth-Two allowed was revisiting the world of the 1940s super-heroes. If you revamp Superman and Batman for a new generation you gain that, but you lose the old versions of those characters. If you have a device like Earth-Two, then you have a way to go back to that old version of the character and it doesn't bother new continuity. Of course, you don't actually need an Earth-Two to do that. When John Byrne wanted to team up the classic Captain America of Simon & Kirby with the classic Batman of Finger & Kane, he just did it--and let the readers figure out what "universe" it exists in.

[tib2d2]

Its amazing that with all the DC comics I read weekly, that I would struggle to explain the JSA to someone who didn't know anything about them. I feel I can detail things really well up until Crisis, then my confusion sets in/

[marshal88]

read america vs the justice society which serve as very much like a short history lesson on the jsa but a damn good story as well by roy thomas

[tib2d2]

Will def check that out, thanks!

But I'm really interested in clarification on the status and Earth-residence of the JSA post Crisis.

[Jim Kelly]

The fate of the Justice Society, post-Crisis, was covered in LAST DAYS OF THE JUSTICE SOCIETY SPECIAL (July 1986). That's the story that covered their retirement in the early 1950s, in post-Crisis continuity, and how later on (in modern day) they went into another dimension to eternally fight a battle to prevent Ragnarok from destroying the world. The final issues of ALL-STAR SQUADRON (61 - 67) dealt with the post-Crisis aftermath in the 1940s for the members (with Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman disappearing from continuity). YOUNG ALL-STARS was the new title set in the post-Crisis continuity for the 1940s; while INFINITY, INC. shifted from pre-Crisis to post-Crisis continuity, as of issue 33, in the middle of the run for the new artist, Todd McFarlane. And over in SECRET ORIGINS (when it was edited by Roy Thomas) there were new origins for some characters--although the continuity could either be for post-Crisis or for pre-Crisis Earth-One and Earth-Two.

LAST DAYS and some of SECRET ORIGINS is reprinted in the tradepaperback, THE LAST DAYS OF THE JUSTICE SOCIETY (2017).

In 1991, there was an eight-issue limited series, JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA, which told stories set in the post-Crisis 1950s. And in a similar creative direction, in 1992, there was JUSTICE SOCITY OF AMERICA that should have been an ongoing, but was cancelled after ten issues--this had the Society returning from their Ragnarok battle into the 1990s post-Crisis continuity. They looked older (but not too old). However, someone at "DC COMICS, Inc." must have really hated them, because Zero-Hour killed off some and aged up others. I think Green Lantern and Flash were the only ones that came out of it okay. Alan Scott got all his hair back (he was balding before) but he was forced to take the stupid codename Sentinel and a whack costume.

After that, most of what happened with the Justice Society was chronicled in STARMAN, as well as issues of THE FLASH, WONDER WOMAN and JLA--before the revival of a modern Justice Society in JSA (the 1999 series).

[tib2d2]

Thanks so much!

before the revival of a modern Justice Society in JSA (the 1999 series).

Please, please, Go On!

[Jim Kelly]

Between Zero Hour and the launch of the 1999 JSA, the main place to find Society stories was in James Robinson's STARMAN. That was a great run and I'd recommend reading all of it, if you can--it's been collected a few times.

Developments in other titles helped to build up the possibility of a Justice Society once more. Grant Morrison had a new team meet the League in his JLA run and his short stint on THE FLASH had some stuff with Jay Garrick and Johnny Thunder. John Byrne in his WONDER WOMAN run established that Queen Hippolyta had time travelled to the 1940s and served as the Wonder Woman for the Society adventures.

To jumpstart the JSA series, there was the "Justice Society Returns" event, on sale in the spring of 1999, with various one-shots, all set toward the end of World War Two. This has all been collected in the trade paperback, JUSTICE SOCIETY RETURNS (2004) and in the JSA OMNIBUS Vol. 1 (2014). In addition, JSA SECRET FILES No. 1 (August 1999) went on sale the week before the first issue of JSA and set up the modern day conditions for what would transpire in that series.

JSA launched as STARMAN came to an end. And other books fed into the JSA run. There was the beloved HOURMAN, featuring an android Hourman from the future. The stellar STARS and S.T.R.I.P.E. run, which is currently being adapted for T.V. And more about Hippolyta in WONDER WOMAN, although that came to an abrupt and sad conclusion. Also a new Doctor Mid-Nite joined the team, having had a three issue prestige format series earlier in 1999. And a new Mr. Terrific came from an appearance in THE SPECTRE. Which reminds me I should have mentioned that Spectre, Doctor Fate(s) and Black Canary II all had their own runs all along in the 1980s and 1990s.

The JSA title was a hugely popular and critical success and had various specials and other series attached to it, including JSA CLASSIFIED. And a new HAWKMAN title was spun off from the series. But the run wound down to its demise after the events of 2005's Infinite Crisis. That led to a new 2007 JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA series (on sale at the end of 2006). I lost interest early on with that series, but maybe other posters can give more details on that formulation of the group.

And that title was ended by Flashpoint and the launch of the New 52. And then the Rebirth after that. I'm in the dark about all of that.

[Tzigone]

One of the things that Earth-Two allowed was revisiting the world of the 1940s super-heroes. If you revamp Superman and Batman for a new generation you gain that, but you lose the old versions of those characters. If you have a device like Earth-Two, then you have a way to go back to that old version of the character and it doesn't bother new continuity.

I'm not quite in agreement there. I really do think the Earth Two versions are also "new" versions just like other revamped versions (or were when the concept was created). They aren't the same as the actual golden age ones to me.

[Jim Kelly]

I'm not quite in agreement there. I really do think the Earth Two versions are also "new" versions just like other revamped versions (or were when the concept was created). They aren't the same as the actual golden age ones to me.

Moi aussi. But this was mainly in some Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman stories and not others.

There was an Earth-Two continuity that developed for Superman that was quite contrary to what the 1940s continuity actually was--but thankfully we didn't have many new stories that used that continuity. It was mainly the Mr. and Mrs. Superman stories that were set in the 1950s, which could be regarded as its own thing.

The problems with Batman weren't as grievous and mostly confined to that same 1950s period--unless you count Robin who has to somehow exist in a world where he should age (when the actual 1940s Robin hardly aged at all).

With Wonder Woman, there were different returns to the "Golden Age" but I think only one of those was set on "Earth-Two"--which was when they tried to tie her in with the T.V. show and they changed a lot of stuff from what was in the Marston continuity--so I just disregard those stories as really being on Earth-Two.

In ALL-STAR SQUADRON, Roy Thomas made much more of an effort to include authentic stories from the 1940s in his continuity.

Then again, Roy Thomas did some things with the Freedom Fighters that were not really respectful of the continuity. Likewise the continuity that Len Wein forced on the Seven Soldiers of Victory shortcuts their careers. In publishing history the Shining Knight's run didn't end until 1951.

But in the Platonic Ideal Earth-Two--in some Multiverse--I imagine there is a perfect continuity that uses the 1935 - 1955 stories above all---and then has extra stories that fit within that continuity. And that Ideal was what I was trying to promote.

Fitting the 1940s characters onto the main Earth, with the current super-heroes, does much more violence to the original stories than what Earth-Two did. The idea of other Earths--where the old stories happened--allows new creators to do whatever they want with the characters now--and leaves the door open for stories set in the original universes.

[DrNewGod]

I'm a fan of the E2 concept because it allows the characters to exist as created. The monthly properties have to be adapted to the current times (and should be). Nonetheless, I enjoy a visit to the source from whence Superheroes came.