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  1. #61
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I rest my case. This is all based on head canon. You're entitled to it but don't pretend it's gospel.
    He asked a hypothetical question regarding red tornado. What am supposed to do other than profess my head canon/opinion ?

    Finally, no mate! Superman was beating machines at their own game from the get go. If you don't see the same theme of the folk hero like john henry in superman,then you don't . The things i mentioned are from comics. I did split the red tornado part. Haven't i?

    Just because you seem to not get or want to ignore every context.Does'nt make it my head canon. There are hundreds of versions of superman.But,there is only one true blue superman. That's siegel and shuster's superman. Everything else is adaptations, even postcrisis one. People can do whatever they want with superman. Make him space jesus, a king, a knight, farmboy ... Etc. Superman isn't a character anymore. He can mean anything and nothing. He is an archetype. I am going to put my opinion regarding what i felt during reading original superman comics, when he was an actual character. Where he was actually a gladiator for truth and justice.I am not the one declaring superman is this or that. New52 had superman wear a armour. Donner made superman ice fortress his space mommy and daddy made(yuck!!!!) . Snyder had superman wear space suit, instead of strongman suit. I didn't mind any of these. That's their prerogative. The character is under company's ownership, much to my chagrin. I believe, the creators should have had the rights to the character.The original superman was meant to say.
    "Man can be competent enough to fix his own problems with his own two hands.Dare i say, be better than the tools he created".
    Modern superman is basically a guy that can't function without the sun, lois, ma, pa, space father, space mother.... Etc. The character is pathetic, most of the time useless, safe and actually says nothing of worth. He wouldn't be able to compete with the machines, regardless. He cannot even beat a man in tincan suit.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 10-28-2020 at 11:08 PM.

  2. #62
    Three Legged Member married guy's Avatar
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    The Zero Hour relaunches of both Fate and Manhunter were pretty average.
    fate-0.jpg
    Manhunter-DC-Comics-Chase-Lawler-a.jpg
    "My name is Wally West. I'm the fastest man alive!"
    I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    He asked a hypothetical question regarding red tornado. What am supposed to do other than profess my head canon/opinion ?

    Finally, no mate! Superman was beating machines at their own game from the get go. If you don't see the same theme of the folk hero like john henry in superman,then you don't . The things i mentioned are from comics. I did split the red tornado part. Haven't i?

    Just because you seem to not get or want to ignore every context.Does'nt make it my head canon. There are hundreds of versions of superman.But,there is only one true blue superman. That's siegel and shuster's superman. Everything else is adaptations, even postcrisis one. People can do whatever they want with superman. Make him space jesus, a king, a knight, farmboy ... Etc. Superman isn't a character anymore. He can mean anything and nothing. He is an archetype. I am going to put my opinion regarding what i felt during reading original superman comics, when he was an actual character. Where he was actually a gladiator for truth and justice.I am not the one declaring superman is this or that. New52 had superman wear a armour. Donner made superman ice fortress his space mommy and daddy made(yuck!!!!) . Snyder had superman wear space suit, instead of strongman suit. I didn't mind any of these. That's their prerogative. The character is under company's ownership, much to my chagrin. I believe, the creators should have had the rights to the character.The original superman was meant to say.
    "Man can be competent enough to fix his own problems with his own two hands.Dare i say, be better than the tools he created".
    Modern superman is basically a guy that can't function without the sun, lois, ma, pa, space father, space mother.... Etc. The character is pathetic, most of the time useless, safe and actually says nothing of worth. He wouldn't be able to compete with the machines, regardless. He cannot even beat a man in tincan suit.
    Do you just turn every post into an opportunity to whine about how Superman has lost his glory?

  4. #64
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Hal Jordan being a drunk driver.
    Wait that was a thing? When?

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    H'El the overpowered Kryptonian

  5. #65
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Do you just turn every post into an opportunity to whine about how Superman has lost his glory?
    Not glory, basic premise of a narrative. The point of a story and character . Yes, i do. Because a pointless character says nothing and means nothing. So, it is very much important that i do whine. A character cannot be working class vigilante, at the same time be space prince sun god and just a normal/average guy from kansas. Point blank.Pick a damn potion. Stick with it, the discard other. Also, if you choose the second or third then it ain't superman as he was created. Stop calling the character 80 years old,First superhero ..etc.Because it's false. Superman would be a lot younger character. Heck! I find calling the character superman itself pernicious act to cash in and nothing else.

    This guy is the original superman. He was meant to say something different. Nobody claims this current superman as this guy because he ain't making money for them.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 10-29-2020 at 02:12 AM.

  6. #66
    Mighty Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Bane being Batmanís half brother.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Yeah, that's the Joker's role!

    Seriously do not like. I don't even remember when we got that story on Bane (so thanks, Frontier). It's like the Hal lobotomy thing - I'm aware that it existed, but have not read it myself, and it wasn't important enough to remember the details. Which is rather the point of the thread, I guess.
    This wasn't a retcon or something they tried to stick on to the then main continuity though.

    For those not familiar: there was a title called Batman: Gotham Knights and in #33-36 there is a story arc where Bane shows up in Wayne Manor claiming to Bruce's half brother. Naturally, the Batman and the Bat Family try to get to the bottom of this and also Batman and Bane team up for a bit as well. At the end of the story we learn that Bane was wrong and Thomas wasn't his biological father so he goes off to find his real father who turned out to be King Snake.
    Last edited by John Venus; 10-29-2020 at 02:24 AM.

  7. #67
    Mighty Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night View Post
    Geoff Johns' attempt to shoehorn in an unknown and missing twin sibling of Lightning Lord's, from his brief run of stories about the LSH in Adventure Comics. Paul Levitz walked that aborted would-be plot back to the established status quo so not subtly, and so quickly. that you could practically hear him say out loud, "No, Geoff, that's a stupid idea."

    The mid-90's Zatanna: Come Together mini-series and its long-term affects on Zatanna's character, costume, and powers. I actually liked it and understood the explanations and reasoning for the choices made in that mini that were given in the individual issues' text pieces, and was glad to see John Ostrander have that version of Zatanna make some appearances in his Spectre, so that story wasn't dropped quite as quickly as the OP was suggesting. But clearly, somebody (or several somebodies) behind the scenes at DC hated it, because some months after Zee's last guest-appearance in Spectre, she next appeared in the Superman titles, back in her half-tuxedo-half-fishnets costume, back to backwards-speaking spells, and back to being a stage magician, with the explanation being given in the letter's column afterwards when fans asked that Come Together had been completely retconned out of continuity. They didn't even try to come up with an in-universe explanation for reversing Zatanna's status quo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    What was Come Together about?
    A revamp of Zatanna edtiroially spearheaded by Kim Yale (Ostrander's wife and co writer of the seminal Suicide Squad run) which was heavily influenced by Vertigo at the time and written by Lee Mars and drawn by .
    The writers wanted to get rid of the 'silly' stuff to make her a more 'serious' heroine.

    The story is about Zatanna meeting her mothers ghost and realizing that she has to save San Francisco from a Chtulu like creature trying to break into 'our' world. She finds her father's backward speaking magic to be ineffective and slow so she switches to her mothers magic after discovering she can do magic based eye blasts. She also adopts a spear, has short hair and adopts a more sword and sorcery costume. Well...have a look:

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/zatan...3/4000-122632/

    Pros:
    -Strong character work and an attempt to give her her own supporting cast.
    -The art by Esteben Maroto was a treat.
    -Zatanna takes on a JL level threat by herself and solves it.

    Cons:
    -"Oh woe is me, if only Constantine was here. I am not as cool or competent as him even though I've been around longer as a character and have been a long time JLA member."
    -It's yet another story where she lost her confidence and needs it back. It's the second story where she met the ghost of her mother and another in a long running series of stories where she gets advice or warnings from her parents from the beyond the grave. If you are familiar with her canon of stories, it's over done.
    -Eye beams, magic necklaces and staffs are no less silly than backwards speaking magic. If anything it made her less unique.
    -The costume switch to achieve 'balance', well that's been done too. In the Satellite era she exclusively wore the Perez designed outfit and only wore the fishnets for performances.


    JLA 187-03.jpgJLA 187-04.jpgJLA 187-05.jpg
    Last edited by John Venus; 10-29-2020 at 03:10 AM.

  8. #68
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Fine, superman loves technology. Must be why clark was racing bullets, trains... Etc. Intead of using guns or riding the train. Must be why he was catching aeroplanes instead flying inside. Superman makes tech look like it's useless. That humanity can achieve these feats through determination, sweat, perseverance... Etc. Superman picks a side.In this case, it is for human competence.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I rest my case. This is all based on head canon. You're entitled to it but don't pretend it's gospel.
    If I might interject into this discussion, as someone with no dog in this fight it seems to me the area where you two are not connecting comes down to "an interpretation of what Superman represented at one point in his early history" vs. "what the character thinks and what motivates him." Does that make sense?


    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    Wait [Hal Jordan as drunk driver] was a thing? When?
    Hal's drunk driving incident happened in the re-telling of his origin in "Emerald Dawn." He even served time for it in "Emerald Dawn II."

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    If I might interject into this discussion, as someone with no dog in this fight it seems to me the area where you two are not connecting comes down to "an interpretation of what Superman represented at one point in his early history" vs. "what the character thinks and what motivates him." Does that make sense?
    I guess so yeah. From my reading, manwhohaseverything seems to be arguing from the position of both.

  10. #70
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    True, but being skeptical of man's dependence on technology is'nt exactly unfounded. There can be other sources for Clark's insistance on it. You can use technology and still question it. Superman doesn't need wierd ironarmor to be cool. - Terminator is also about man vs machines.

    Regarding earlier comment about red tornado. While,i don't believe clark would attack iron giant, astroboy or red tornado for that matter because they would be alive. Clark wouldn't use them like mere tools. Heck! Clark might be the only one advocating for ai agent/robot rights. Superman was meant to be working class through and through. Also for clark, astroboy would be a real boy.
    If he sees something wrong with someone's use of technology or it's impacting someone's health, yeah, he'd probably comment on it or do something about it but not in a way where he acts naturally averse to it, otherwise he wouldn't do anything with the Fortress of Solitude or the resources it offers.

    And of course Superman's not roboracist .

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    If he sees something wrong with someone's use of technology or it's impacting someone's health, yeah, he'd probably comment on it or do something about it but not in a way where he acts naturally averse to it, otherwise he wouldn't do anything with the Fortress of Solitude or the resources it offers.

    And of course Superman's not roboracist .
    Never mind that if not for technology, Superman would have perished on Krypton.

  12. #72
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    Power Girl's retconned Atlantean origin? I don't think anything much was ever done with it.

    Black Canary being her own daughter brainwashed into thinking she was her mother. Yup...that didn't stick around too long either.

  13. #73
    Amazing Member Aramis's Avatar
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    I mean... we can just say Donna Troy's origin and close the thread lol

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Power Girl's retconned Atlantean origin? I don't think anything much was ever done with it.

    Black Canary being her own daughter brainwashed into thinking she was her mother. Yup...that didn't stick around too long either.
    Nothing good, anyway.

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Secret Agent Diana Prince. Both times.

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