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  1. #61
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    noticed the cover of 52.lr has doctor strange and the mysterious female being attacked by the nightwalkers the creatures from OMD

  2. #62
    Mighty Member Hulkout42's Avatar
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    Is it wrong for me to hope this is going where i think it is with the teasing taking place here? I am afraid it won't but i just lost it when they teased the deal and that since with dream MJ.

  3. #63
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    Terrific issue, no doubts, but ladies and gentlemens - did you notice the last monologue of Kindred? I will quote it:

    We've been waiting for you, Pete. Waiting for so long. It was cold and dark first, then it was bright, burning fire. We fought throught all of it, just to get to this moment. There was heartbreak and pain and tears. But that's all behind us. And since you've finally arrived well, now it's a party.

    The main question is: WHO IS "WE"? WHY DOES KINDRED SPEAK LIKE TWO PERSONS?

    Cold and dark - does that mean death?

    Bright and burning fire - does that mean hell?

    Fought throught all - getting out of hell?

    Heartbreak and pain and tears - it sounds like two soulmates who got separated from each other and suffered very much, but managed to get back to eatch other

    But that's all behind us - they finally got out of hell and found eatch other?

    Guys, what if Kindred is really a hybrid? There can be three explanations about this "WE".

    • Kindred are Harry Osborn and Pre-OMD Peter. Harry hates Spider-Man, because due to his deal with Mephisto he became a failsafe, a puppet possesed by Pre-OMD Peter in this grand demonic scheme (so Harry is like a victim of this deal). Pre-OMD Peter hates Spider-Man, because due to deal with Mephisto he got to hell and got separated from Pre-OMD MJ. The dream in the astral plane showed what Kindred/Pre-OMD Peter had saw and fell in his hell, becoming constantly separated from Pre-OMD MJ and this suffering had made him to make a decision to become a demon to get out of this hellish mess and fix it. The question is: where is Pre-OMD MJ? She is either still in hell (therefore Kindred hates Spider-Man so much) or she also got out. I remember that there was a theory that Carlie Cooper is something connected to OMD. She went back to NYT to get reaquinted with MJ and became her dear friend. She didn't want that MJ told Peter she had got back. She also appeared as a forensic expert in Sin-Eater case. Maybe the soul of Pre-OMD MJ from hell is in her body! Kindred targets Peter (in a negative way, because he is mostly guilty of sin of Mephisto deal) and Carlie targets MJ (in a positive way, she is not so guilty of Mephisto deal). Coincidence?

    • Kindred is only Harry Osborn, but when he speaks "WE", he means "I, Harry Osborn" and "Pre-OMD MJ". Pre-OMD Peter is still in hell, therefore Hand of Vishanti feels that Spider-Man's soul is tainted and connected to hell. Harry was transformed in Kindred due to Spider-Man's deal with Mephisto. Pre-OMD MJ is in Carlie Cooper's body therefore she feels a strong connection to MJ living in our world.

    • Kindred is only Harry Osborn, but when he speaks "WE" he means souls of the people's corpses sitting at the table (Gwen Stacy, George Stacy etc.). Maybe the deal with Mephisto condemned all of them to hell, because they died before OMD and their memories about Peter and MJ marriage couldn't be erased like living people, but their knowledge about the Pre-OMD reality damned them to hell. Just imagine that in the next issue Kindred/Harry will allow these souls speaks through their corpses and tell Peter how his decision made their afterlife existence a constant torment. Maybe this is THE SIN of Spider-Man that Kindred is still talking about.

    What do you think?
    Last edited by Dawidos; 10-28-2020 at 05:08 PM.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawidos View Post
    Terrific issue, no doubts, but ladies and gentlemens - did you notice the last monologue of Kindred? I will quote it:

    We've been waiting for you, Pete. Waiting for so long. It was cold and dark first, then it was bright, burning fire. We fought throught all of it, just to get to this moment. There was heartbreak and pain and tears. But that's all behind us. And since you've finally arrived well, now it's a party.

    The main question is: WHO IS "WE"? WHY DOES KINDRED SPEAK LIKE TWO PERSONS?

    Cold and dark - does that mean death?

    Bright and burning fire - does that mean hell?

    Fought throught all - getting out of hell?

    Heartbreak and pain and tears - it sounds like two soulmates who got separated from each other and suffered very much, but managed to get back to eatch other

    But that's all behind us - they finally got out of hell and found eatch other?

    Guys, what if Kindred is really a hybrid? There can be three explanations about this "WE".

    Kindred are Harry Osborn and Pre-OMD Peter. Harry hates Spider-Man, because due to his deal with Mephisto he became a failsafe, a puppet possesed by Pre-OMD Peter in this grand demonic scheme (so Harry is like a victim of this deal). Pre-OMD Peter hates Spider-Man, because due to deal with Mephisto he got to hell and got separated from Pre-OMD MJ. The dream in the astral plane showed what Kindred/Pre-OMD Peter had saw and fell in his hell, becoming constantly separated from Pre-OMD MJ and this suffering had made him to make a decision to become a demon to get out of this hellish mess and fix it. The question is: where is Pre-OMD MJ? She is either still in hell (therefore Kindred hates Spider-Man so much) or she also got out. I remember that there was a theory that Carlie Cooper is something connected to OMD. She went back to NYT to get reaquinted with MJ and became her dear friend. She didn't want that MJ told Peter she had got back. She also appeared as a forensic expert in Sin-Eater case. Maybe the soul of Pre-OMD MJ from hell is in her body! Kindred targets Peter (in a negative way, because he is mostly guilty of sin of Mephisto deal) and Carlie targets MJ (in a positive way, she is not so guilty of Mephisto deal). Coincidence?

    Kindred is only Harry Osborn, but when he speaks "WE", he means "I, Harry Osborn" and "Pre-OMD MJ". Pre-OMD Peter is still in hell, therefore Hand of Vishanti feels that Spider-Man's soul is tainted and connected to hell. Harry was transformed in Kindred due to Spider-Man's deal with Mephisto. Pre-OMD MJ is in Carlie Cooper's body therefore she feels a strong connection to MJ living in our world.

    Kindred is only Harry Osborn, but when he speaks "WE" he means souls of the people's corpses sitting at the table (Gwen Stacy, George Stacy etc.). Maybe the deal with Mephisto condemned all of them to hell, because they died before OMD and their memories about Peter and MJ marriage couldn't be erased like living people, but their knowledge about the Pre-OMD reality damned them to hell. Just imagine that in the next issue Kindred/Harry will allow these souls speaks through their corpses and tell Peter how his decision made their afterlife existence a constant torment. Maybe this is THE SIN of Spider-Man that Kindred is still talking about.

    What do you think?
    Harry was referring to his guests. The dead people he buried up. Gwen, George, etc.

  5. #65
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Great issue overall. Spencer is making all of those references to JMS', which is quite ironic considering we've been talking so much about it. Nice to see that mystical hand as well as that astral plane world, done in the style of JRJr. Lots of cool Spencer moments as well, like Strange's "Okay" and "ominous face" or Spidey pulling a switcheroo on Strange.

    Some complaints though. Like how did Spidey end up at Kindred's home? Did he go through a dimensional portal? Is he hallucinating?

    The other complaint is something I've been holding since last issue, and that's the weak ending to the Sin-Eater storyline. Seriously, Spencer spends all of these issues hyping Sin-Eater up, only for him to be revealed as a pawn? Spidey doesn't deliver the knockout? Now he and his followers are just thrown away?

    I'm thoroughly intrigued though. Can't wait to see what happens next!
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Great issue overall. Spencer is making all of those references to JMS', which is quite ironic considering we've been talking so much about it. Nice to see that mystical hand as well as that astral plane world, done in the style of JRJr. Lots of cool Spencer moments as well, like Strange's "Okay" and "ominous face" or Spidey pulling a switcheroo on Strange.

    Some complaints though. Like how did Spidey end up at Kindred's home? Did he go through a dimensional portal? Is he hallucinating?

    The other complaint is something I've been holding since last issue, and that's the weak ending to the Sin-Eater storyline. Seriously, Spencer spends all of these issues hyping Sin-Eater up, only for him to be revealed as a pawn? Spidey doesn't deliver the knockout? Now he and his followers are just thrown away?

    I'm thoroughly intrigued though. Can't wait to see what happens next!
    Kindred's HQ is inside Spidey's astral plane, hence its inital rotting appearance that Parker comments on and subsequent centipedes that occupy it. It's probably been like this for some time done by Mephisto and is the reason Strange immediately recoiled to going in, because he knew someone else was in control inside it. Graveyard could be the manifestation of Parker's subconscious guilt, rather than Kindred digging up the real corpses.

  7. #67
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingkalamari View Post
    Kindred's HQ is inside Spidey's astral plane, hence its inital rotting appearance that Parker comments on and subsequent centipedes that occupy it. It's probably been like this for some time done by Mephisto and is the reason Strange immediately recoiled to going in, because he knew someone else was in control inside it. Graveyard could be the manifestation of Parker's subconscious guilt, rather than Kindred digging up the real corpses.
    Cool, thanks for the explanation. Yeah, saw some clickbait article mentioning how Dr. Strange may have noticed OMD when he saw the Spidey's astral plane world. I definitely remember that JMS issue with Spidey and Strange walking around and seeing nothing but MJ's. Makes me think if anything will be done about it? Additionally, wow, just the layers of magic were piled heavy here. Strange, Mephisto, and now Kindred affecting Pete's astral plane.
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  8. #68
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    So I’ve been doing some digging and there is one clue that leads me to think this may actually be about OMD but to explain we gotta go a bit Meta cause I’m not talking about what’s actually in the issue. Spencer had two major runs before Spider-man ant man and Captain America and if there is one unifying theme from all his books it’s absolute hatred of moral ambiguity in superhero stories. He made a thesis statement of this in Ant-man where he had Scott yell at Doctor doom that he is bad everything he does is bad and he will always be bad. Then in captain America he specifically said that one of things he nailed down before hydra cap was even introduced was how he would end the story by making sure the real cap was completely blameless. He has been very critical of green lantern rebirth for keeping Hal Jordan somewhat responsible for the parallax arc from the 90s instead of doing a total retcon and said it has tainted green lantern forever. So by that logic it seems like an obvious bet that Spencer is not a fan of the most moral hero selling his soul to the devil and then that being ignored. However if Spencer is planning on dealing with OMD it would most likely be some sort of total eradication of the story. Spider-Man won’t face consequences cause in Spencer’s perspective the story should never have happened. So if This the OMD story it will erase it completely. But just like in ant man and secret empire I expect it to extremely anti climatic. I suspect a “you never really sold your soul” reveal just like hydra cap never picked up the hammer. It will come out of left field it will not be set and it will be dumb. Or as I truly think he is just trolling us

  9. #69
    Extraordinary Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantor View Post
    So I’ve been doing some digging and there is one clue that leads me to think this may actually be about OMD but to explain we gotta go a bit Meta cause I’m not talking about what’s actually in the issue. Spencer had two major runs before Spider-man ant man and Captain America and if there is one unifying theme from all his books it’s absolute hatred of moral ambiguity in superhero stories.
    I honestly don't get that at all from Spencer. The author of Superior Foes of Spider-Man which is about the humanity and humor in the most treacherous criminals doesn't strike me as being such a Post-Marvel Ditko-ite.

    He made a thesis statement of this in Ant-man where he had Scott yell at Doctor doom that he is bad everything he does is bad and he will always be bad.
    That's based on Scott's grudge against Doom for (briefly) killing Cassie before she got resurected (by Doom again), so it's more the character than the author. Spencer does show Doom with some amount of nobility in his Spider-Man 2099 arc.

    So if This the OMD story it will erase it completely. But just like in ant man and secret empire I expect it to extremely anti climatic. I suspect a “you never really sold your soul” reveal just like hydra cap never picked up the hammer. It will come out of left field it will not be set and it will be dumb. Or as I truly think he is just trolling us
    Spencer was a more bombastic writer in the time of Hydra-Cap than he is now. He was active on social media and generally not always making the most sense...since the backlash to Secret Empire and so on, he's become a lot more cautious, patient, and reticent. He avoids interviews and other platforms and let's his stuff speak for himself. That said, a twist where Peter never actually agreed to the OMD deal or that he and MJ backed out and so on would be pretty interesting on a conceptual level.

  10. #70
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    spencer keeps writing about moral ambiguity and criticizes it not because he wants it to stop, but because it can be mined for drama infinitely and he is a writer, you could not find someone who loves his marvel characters flawed more and if he retcons stuff it's not because of fans' feewings but because he wants to further complicate matters
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    There are creatures science refuses to recognize...but if new technology makes us question what is real...If OUR EYES SEE IT...IF OUR CAMERAS CAPTURE IT...DOES IT EXIST? ENTER A REALM WHERE FACT meets FICTION....SCIENCE meets LEGEND...WHERE NIGHTMARES COME TO LIFE...DO YOU BELIEVE?"

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rzerox21xx View Post
    noticed the cover of 52.lr has doctor strange and the mysterious female being attacked by the nightwalkers the creatures from OMD
    I think we can safely say that's Felicia, right? Given she showed up in this story and the silhouette from 52.LR has clawed fingers.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawidos View Post
    Terrific issue, no doubts, but ladies and gentlemens - did you notice the last monologue of Kindred? I will quote it:

    We've been waiting for you, Pete. Waiting for so long. It was cold and dark first, then it was bright, burning fire. We fought throught all of it, just to get to this moment. There was heartbreak and pain and tears. But that's all behind us. And since you've finally arrived well, now it's a party.

    The main question is: WHO IS "WE"? WHY DOES KINDRED SPEAK LIKE TWO PERSONS?

    Cold and dark - does that mean death?

    Bright and burning fire - does that mean hell?

    Fought throught all - getting out of hell?

    Heartbreak and pain and tears - it sounds like two soulmates who got separated from each other and suffered very much, but managed to get back to eatch other

    But that's all behind us - they finally got out of hell and found eatch other?

    Guys, what if Kindred is really a hybrid? There can be three explanations about this "WE".

    • Kindred are Harry Osborn and Pre-OMD Peter. Harry hates Spider-Man, because due to his deal with Mephisto he became a failsafe, a puppet possesed by Pre-OMD Peter in this grand demonic scheme (so Harry is like a victim of this deal). Pre-OMD Peter hates Spider-Man, because due to deal with Mephisto he got to hell and got separated from Pre-OMD MJ. The dream in the astral plane showed what Kindred/Pre-OMD Peter had saw and fell in his hell, becoming constantly separated from Pre-OMD MJ and this suffering had made him to make a decision to become a demon to get out of this hellish mess and fix it. The question is: where is Pre-OMD MJ? She is either still in hell (therefore Kindred hates Spider-Man so much) or she also got out. I remember that there was a theory that Carlie Cooper is something connected to OMD. She went back to NYT to get reaquinted with MJ and became her dear friend. She didn't want that MJ told Peter she had got back. She also appeared as a forensic expert in Sin-Eater case. Maybe the soul of Pre-OMD MJ from hell is in her body! Kindred targets Peter (in a negative way, because he is mostly guilty of sin of Mephisto deal) and Carlie targets MJ (in a positive way, she is not so guilty of Mephisto deal). Coincidence?

    • Kindred is only Harry Osborn, but when he speaks "WE", he means "I, Harry Osborn" and "Pre-OMD MJ". Pre-OMD Peter is still in hell, therefore Hand of Vishanti feels that Spider-Man's soul is tainted and connected to hell. Harry was transformed in Kindred due to Spider-Man's deal with Mephisto. Pre-OMD MJ is in Carlie Cooper's body therefore she feels a strong connection to MJ living in our world.

    • Kindred is only Harry Osborn, but when he speaks "WE" he means souls of the people's corpses sitting at the table (Gwen Stacy, George Stacy etc.). Maybe the deal with Mephisto condemned all of them to hell, because they died before OMD and their memories about Peter and MJ marriage couldn't be erased like living people, but their knowledge about the Pre-OMD reality damned them to hell. Just imagine that in the next issue Kindred/Harry will allow these souls speaks through their corpses and tell Peter how his decision made their afterlife existence a constant torment. Maybe this is THE SIN of Spider-Man that Kindred is still talking about.

    What do you think?
    Pretty sure Kindred is referring to the dead people at the table (especially Gwen and George Stacy).

  13. #73
    Amazing Member Dzika_Sowa's Avatar
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    Wait, I'm confused.

    Is the dinner taking place in Peter's Astral plane or in a real location? I thought Kindred has his base of operations on some real cementery. If it's Spidey's astral plane, then I guess the covers op upcoming issues make more sense.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzika_Sowa View Post
    Wait, I'm confused.

    Is the dinner taking place in Peter's Astral plane or in a real location? I thought Kindred has his base of operations on some real cementery. If it's Spidey's astral plane, then I guess the covers op upcoming issues make more sense.
    I took it as real tbh, and that Spidey had woken back up. But I could be wrong.

  15. #75
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    I think it must be real, isn’t this presumably the same place where Sin Eater was resurrected?
    Really loved this issue, beautiful artwork and I think Spencer managed a good balance of really dark material mixed with a little humor. Nitpick here, but it just seemed a little to easy for Black Cat to swipe something right under Doctor Strange’s nose.

    Super excited for Spencer to address OMD. Between the comment of Strange nearly asking him if he’s ever made a deal in regards to his soul, and “The answer is yes” I firmly believe this story will address this head on.

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