Spider-Man 51 Discussion SPOILERS

[Kingkalamari]

Wait, I'm confused.

Is the dinner taking place in Peter's Astral plane or in a real location? I thought Kindred has his base of operations on some real cementery. If it's Spidey's astral plane, then I guess the covers op upcoming issues make more sense.

I'm pretty sure it's not a real location, hence why this ominous purple graveyard filled with people dead related to Spidey (and also Ottley and Ramos, rip to them on this run)while also having a mausoleum filled with magic mirrors. Kindred occupies this place within Spidey's astral plane, and yeah, it was the place Sin-Eater was revived at, but Kindred can seemingly travel between it and the real world, hence by his appearances having the world collapse around it when he enters. The area itself is probably the subconscious manifestation of Spidey's guilt and whatnot, and I imagine the next two issues are battling Kindred in this place and the astral plane(hence bug infested cover of #53) but probably after that happening in the real world.

[Spidey_62]

Yeah, pretty sure it's real, my read on it was Peter strayed from the path in the astral plane like Doctor Strange told him not to before and as a result got pulled right to where Kindred wants him.

Just went back into ASM v2 #46 again and props to bringing Peter's astral plane back into a story like this, all the JRJR art is lifted straight from that issue and it's such a great deep cut.

[RD155]

Man I know I’m getting my hopes up but I don’t even care at this point. Just read the issue and damn ASM hasn’t been this good in what seems like forever.

It’s essentially flat out factual at this point that this story is going to address OMD. I can’t see any other possibility at this point.

Literally had goosebumps as I was turning the pages. Gleason was absolutely on fire during this issues. Some of those panels were just jaw dropping. Had some similarities to Bagley with the big eyes and having that very lean look to the character. Spidey hasn’t looked this good in forever.

The MJ scene.... “The answer is Yes...”......

Yes to an the apparent proposal? Or was that a reference to OMD?

Also that KLH throw back....God that was gorgeous.

If this is all just one big tease and somehow OMD isn’t at the core of all of this....I am going to be one sad sad little fanboy....

[Lukmendes]

The MJ scene.... “The answer is Yes...”......

Yes to an the apparent proposal? Or was that a reference to OMD?

She didn't say "The answer is yes" once she decided to accept the marriage:

https://i.imgur.com/NMFsdZL.png

(ASM#292)

She did say it when she accepted the deal though:

https://i.imgur.com/aCnId8h.jpg

(ASM#545)

If you wanna push it a bit, she also says "It's okay" a few pages later:

https://i.imgur.com/IlXhCbQ.jpg

So yeah, at least "The answer is yes" line is, possibly, a reference to OMD.

[RyanParkerMan]

She didn't say "The answer is yes" once she decided to accept the marriage:

So yeah, at least "The answer is yes" line is, possibly, a reference to OMD.

It's a reference to OMD. Spencer is a life long spidey fan. He's read it all. You can't read ASM and SSM and relish those stories and be okay with OMD or BND when it comes to Harry and MJ particularly. For folks who started reading during BND, their opinion matters just as much as everyone but for some folks who read for years or decades leading up to OMD and after BND, this never sat right. I was one of the more vocal dudes here 12 years ago when OMD went down. I tried BND. I hated it. I read from Big Time to today and everything in between and I disliked Slott's run but my time for complaining about comics on message boards had past. Like Spencer said in his interview, the heal with Harry never healed and Peter living this cycle and not knowing his life never healed. The first thing Spencer did was put MJ and Peter back together. Peter remissed that something was missing. He's wanted to propose but presumably can't, or if he does May dies, or the deal happens again in a cyclical format?

At the end of OMD Harry appears, "Speak of the Devil and he appears..." He was the parachute back then. Spencer is using him now to heal SSM 200, OMD, and BND. The deal allowed Harry back from hell. He was back then but he's waited till now to make his play. This is as good as Spider-Man has been for me since Back in Black. This is awesome. This is the Spider-Man I grew up reading and I can't wait for Spencer to write the 3rd part of this trilogy, where love overcomes evil and good wins. OMD is the worst Marvel story because the bad guy won and the good guys lost. It has to be defeated. If MJ and Pete get married, cool. If not, cool. I'll be along for the ride.

[Lukmendes]

It's a reference to OMD. Spencer is a life long spidey fan. He's read it all. You can't read ASM and SSM and relish those stories and be okay with OMD or BND when it comes to Harry and MJ particularly. For folks who started reading during BND, their opinion matters just as much as everyone but for some folks who read for years or decades leading up to OMD and after BND, this never sat right. I was one of the more vocal dudes here 12 years ago when OMD went down. I tried BND. I hated it. I read from Big Time to today and everything in between and I disliked Slott's run but my time for complaining about comics on message boards had past. Like Spencer said in his interview, the heal with Harry never healed and Peter living this cycle and not knowing his life never healed. The first thing Spencer did was put MJ and Peter back together. Peter remissed that something was missing. He's wanted to propose but presumably can't, or if he does May dies, or the deal happens again in a cyclical format?

At the end of OMD Harry appears, "Speak of the Devil and he appears..." He was the parachute back then. Spencer is using him now to heal SSM 200, OMD, and BND. The deal allowed Harry back from hell. He was back then but he's waited till now to make his play. This is as good as Spider-Man has been for me since Back in Black. This is awesome. This is the Spider-Man I grew up reading and I can't wait for Spencer to write the 3rd part of this trilogy, where love overcomes evil and good wins. OMD is the worst Marvel story because the bad guy won and the good guys lost. It has to be defeated. If MJ and Pete get married, cool. If not, cool. I'll be along for the ride.

I mean, I'm like, 90% sure this is gonna talk about OMD at least, I just keep other possibilities in mind, specialy since super-hero comic books have mastered the art of being disappointing, a lot of times in the dumbest way possible.

Plus so far we're only getting possible references to it, doesn't mean it's gonna be there, nor that anything's gonna be solved, the story hasn't promissed anything like that.

So yeah, I'll be the "wait and see" person like always, if the story doesn't talk about OMD despite those possible hints, that's okay.

[RyanParkerMan]

I mean, I'm like, 90% sure this is gonna talk about OMD at least, I just keep other possibilities in mind, specialy since super-hero comic books have mastered the art of being disappointing, a lot of times in the dumbest way possible.

Plus so far we're only getting possible references to it, doesn't mean it's gonna be there, nor that anything's gonna be solved, the story hasn't promissed anything like that.

So yeah, I'll be the "wait and see" person like always, if the story doesn't talk about OMD despite those possible hints, that's okay.

No! It has to be about OMD! lol

I hear ya. I think Spencer knows it would be the greatest let down ever if he's not talking about OMD. Just the fact that the fans guessed Kindred was Harry and Spencer was like, it had to be Harry points to the idea that he knows what story he's writing and why he's writing it vs who he's right it for.

Just curious, since you're keeping your mind open and I'm not (I mean that honestly, not facetiously), if this isn't about OMD, what would it be about? Why is Harry pushing the hell thing in the first place? Curious what your thoughts are.

[Spidey_62]

There's just way too many things peppered throughout his run so far, plus the magical JMS elements and hell coming back into the book, for it to just be an in-joke for the fans. Slott making an OMD jab near the end of his run (and one in his Silver Surfer run) were just jokes, here they're pretty rampant and are played as subtle lines or visual hints (like the ringless hand while he laments something missing) that seem to be part of Spencer's narrative and what he's trying to explore- especially given what he recently said in his interview where he comments on things that happen in the character's history and get brushed under the rug.

[Lukmendes]

No! It has to be about OMD! lol

I hear ya. I think Spencer knows it would be the greatest let down ever if he's not talking about OMD. Just the fact that the fans guessed Kindred was Harry and Spencer was like, it had to be Harry points to the idea that he knows what story he's writing and why he's writing it vs who he's right it for.

Just curious, since you're keeping your mind open and I'm not (I mean that honestly, not facetiously), if this isn't about OMD, what would it be about? Why is Harry pushing the hell thing in the first place? Curious what your thoughts are.

One other possibility I have in mind about the "sin" Peter commited is Harry being butthurt over Peter not really being affected by his death, since as someone else pointed out (stillanerd I think?) Peter accepted his return just like that, like he never cared he was gone.

I do have my doubts about that one though, not only this issue is pointing more at OMD (As we also have Strange wondering about some "arrangement" Peter made, which whatever it is, was serious enough for him to try to solve this whole thing without Peter, after agreeing to help), in ASM#850, Spidey directly remembers Harry's death:



Another one I'm thinking is that OMD is either not the reason, or only another and not the original reason he's pissed, since if we go back to Civil War era, Mysterio was back in Peter David's Friendly Neighbor(#13 and #14), and that was before OMD, but after Spidey unmasked to the public, and since Mysterio being resurrected by a demon was mentioned back then, it's possible this is why Harry got pissed, does help that in ASM#10, Kindred was pissed when Spidey revealed his secret identity to Felicia again, said "You just keep dragging more and more people into your hell.", maybe he just has a problem with Peter unmasking.

If it's OMD, then there's this plot hole where Mysterio was resurrected before OMD happened, unless it was something like, someone else who kinda resurrected him for shits and giggles and Kindred decided to bring him back for real because of OMD to try to **** over Peter.

Also, and that's unrelated to guessing what Kindred wants, I think it'd be nice if Spencer explained that time Mysterio moved to Ultimate, would be nice if it had the justification that Mysterio was planning to someday move to it permanently (Don't ask why he didn't do it right away ) to get the **** away from Kindred, not far fetched to assume that since he did try to escape from Kindred in ASM#24 by making his psychologist think he was Mysterio to trick Kindred.

Oh well, like I said before, this could be a Harry situation again, where it looked too obvious that Kindred was Harry, so other possibilities were considered, only for it to be Harry anyways, could be the same about Last Remains and OMD lol.

[RD155]

Spencer has to know that at this point if it’s not OMD it would be a disappointment. I just can’t see the point of throwing all these teases/hints our way only for it to be something else. He has to know how touchy of a subject OMDis for the fan base so why even hint at it if you aren’t planning on committing and going all way through.

[RD155]

I mean, I'm like, 90% sure this is gonna talk about OMD at least, I just keep other possibilities in mind, specialy since super-hero comic books have mastered the art of being disappointing, a lot of times in the dumbest way possible.

Plus so far we're only getting possible references to it, doesn't mean it's gonna be there, nor that anything's gonna be solved, the story hasn't promissed anything like that.

So yeah, I'll be the "wait and see" person like always, if the story doesn't talk about OMD despite those possible hints, that's okay.

I completely understand why you approaching this cautiously. Marvel has a history of disappointing so I totally get it. However like I’ve mentioned I just can’t see Spencer throwing all these teases our way.

-The camera zooming in on MJs hand saying something is “missing” at the start of his run.

-Having an engagement ring for her.

-The constant references to OMD littered through out Last Remains.

Why even attempt to take this on if you are Spencer?

I feel as if having it be anything else at this point would essentially be a cop out. Do I want Peter/MJ married again? Of course. Nothing else would have me more satisfied as a fan of the character. However if that’s not “possible” then at least have the balls to address OMD.

You had our hero make a deal witH the devil. Now he’s paying the price for it and being dragged through the mud. This can be a beautiful story of redemption and making a past mistake/sin right.

[Dzika_Sowa]

Spencer has to know that at this point if it’s not OMD it would be a disappointment. I just can’t see the point of throwing all these teases/hints our way only for it to be something else. He has to know how touchy of a subject OMDis for the fan base so why even hint at it if you aren’t planning on committing and going all the through.

I'm starting to associate Spencer with a fan who got his dream chance and fixes what others have broken over the years in one of his favourite comics.

Kraven last hunt? - Fixed.

Peter and MJ together? - It's happening, maybe a proposal is on it's way, but I suspect that Peter will choose not to, after Last Remains.

Lizard's family? - Kinda fixed.

Death of Harry? It will probably be fixed.

Do I dare to say that Spencer will fix the OMD? - No, but I still hope he will, eventually.

The whole situation reminds me a bit of Sonic comics from Archie. Ken Penders devastated the series with his "ideas" until he was replaced by Ian Flynn (a huge fan of the series) who rescued the entire series with his ideas. I mean, until it was canceled because of Penders, but it's a long and sad story.

Maybe it will be the same with Spencer's turn? Spider-Man wasn't this good since JMS (except Superior, but it wasn't Peter Parker).

And since I mentioned Slott, the difference between him and Spencer, I think, is that one of them was constantly remainding people, that he is a big fan of Spidey, yet he mostly irritated the fans, while the other is less boasting about his love for the series and quietly repairing the damage .

But, it's just my opinion. It can be far from the truth.

[Dzika_Sowa]

I completely understand why you approaching this cautiously. Marvel has a history of disappointing so I totally get it. However like I’ve mentioned I just can’t see Spencer throwing all these teases our way.

-The camera zooming in on MJs hand saying something is “missing” at the start of his run.

-Having an engagement ring for her.

-The constant references to OMD littered through out Last Remains.

Why even attempt to take this on if you are Spencer?

I feel as if having it be anything else at this point would essentially be a cop out. Do I want Peter/MJ married again? Of course. Nothing else would have me more satisfied as a fan of the character. However if that’s not “possible” then at least have the balls to address OMD.

You had our hero make a deal witH the devil. Now he’s paying the price for it and being dragged through the mud. This can be a beautiful story of redemption and making a past mistake/sin right.

Maybe he is just planting seeds for an OMD reversal story? We don't know how long he will stay on the book, and something this big could be his swan song. That could explain why Marvel is staying quiet about OMD stuff in marketing.

[mrswing]

I don't get it. When Slott ruled the roost, there was a lot of criticism and deservedly so. Now Spencer is doing work which I consider seriously substandard on every level and it's a love fest every week. No one seems to mind that the whole Kindred thing has been dragged out beyond all reason. That every story inbetween was just filler. That the mix of aggravating sitcom and whiny Spidey really isn't pleasant. That the current storyline is barely comprehensible (Peter throws Norman out of the boat into the water - and the what? What choice is that? What does that do except absolutely nothing?) and leans into some of the worst ideas of the JMS run. On top of this we get Ramosian artwork that's even less clear than the original from Patrick Gleason. And the whole current situation seems like a Death of the Family-ripoff with the psycho-demonic villain preparing a horrific dinner party for the overmatched hero.

[mrswing]

Doesn’t that assume that JMS was a good series?

And it really, really, really wasn't. Except for Peter spending 10 minutes with Uncle Ben, that was sublime. But the rest? Spider-Totem? Osborn screwing Gwen??? Ugh ugh ugh.