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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD155 View Post
    Slott doesn’t have a good voice or feel for the character. He never did as far as I’m concerned. He also at times came off as overly sensitive towards fans when they would criticize his work at times. It’s interesting because I was a huge fan of his work with She Hulk. Absolutely love that run in its entirety. So believe me, I was excited to see him work on my favorite character. It just never clicked for me and I also didn’t like what he did with MJ at all.
    I enjoyed his run from Big Time to the end of Superior, after that, I felt he used up all his good ideas.
    Spider-Verse was just a rehash of Spider-Island (and I think that event could have worked if it was just a 5 issue mini after his initial run, much like Spider-Geddon).

    But yeah, he had a poor voice for Spidey, especially considering I felt there were better BND writers and we just came off of the JMS era, which while ended badly, at least got Peter right.

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member CrimsonEchidna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    I agree with you 100% about Miles. If you go back to two of the worst stories in Spider-Man history ( Clone Saga and OMD/BND) they happened for the exact same reason: Fear of what will happen if Peter grew up and of course the financial implications of it. With the success of Miles ( including an Oscar), Marvel and their Disney Corporate Patent no longer need to worry about this. There is room for both Peter and Miles ( as well as their supporting cast ( MJ included)), and they can continue to make lots of money off of Spider-Man, which is priority #1.
    I think another thing is, whether people like admitting it or not, Spider-Gwen is starting to overtake regular Gwen Stacy in the public conscious.
    The artist formerly known as OrpheusTelos.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFJamie94 View Post
    It's purely down to BND only exists because of OMD.
    It's more that Brand New Day was promoted and sold as a kind of justification for One More Day. Quesada said that the marriage restricted stories and so on. A brassy title like "brand new day" (which implies that what happened before was 'yesterday' or old and so on...cheap marketing subtext and all that) was intended to sell that era as "new Spider-Man on the block" in the 'what up cool kids' sense.

    BND was generally mediocre and in most cases rehashes of stuff that was done before, and in a large sense, it failed to make the case for OMD i.e. a) These stories needed to happen, b) They could only have happened without the marriag.e

    -- When Spider-Man graduated and went to college...Lee-Ditko whipped up The Master Planner Saga, a story that could only ever have been told with a college age Peter.
    -- When Spider-Man got married...DeMatteis-Zeck gave us Kraven's Last Hunt, which works the way it does because of the marriage.

    Both the previous cases when you had a major status-quo change, you had an instant masterpiece. In the case of OMD...you didn't have that. No defender of BND will claim reasonably that any story in that run is on the level of the MP Saga and KLH. Is that a tall and unfair order, i.e. asking BND writers to do a KLH and MP level story? Sure, but then when you make a big change in the continuity, you do need to back it up.

  4. #19
    Mighty Member Vortex85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I never understood why BND is always included in the "OMD is bad" rant?
    IMO, BND is worse than OMD.

    The OMD story itself was interesting moral dilemma and while I disagree with the deal, I can read and appreciate the story.

    However, BND took Spider-Man in the direction I despise and lived out the consequences of what editorial wanted for the character through OMD. BND contains a soulless shell of a character who I don't enjoy reading about. I cannot stand that era and I can't even stomach to read most of the stories in it even though I've tried. It also contains one of the worst stories ever, OMIT, in that era which is even worse than OMD itself.

    If OMD happened and then the stories picked up similar to how they were at the beginning of Spencer's run, I may have not have dropped the book or left the title for as long as I did.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrimsonEchidna View Post
    I think another thing is, whether people like admitting it or not, Spider-Gwen is starting to overtake regular Gwen Stacy in the public conscious.
    Keeping the topic on MJ, I find it also kind of interesting that (at least from my perspective) this has kind of disassociated MJ and Gwen from each other in a way.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Keeping the topic on MJ, I find it also kind of interesting that (at least from my perspective) this has kind of disassociated MJ and Gwen from each other in a way.
    Gwen and MJ have long been disassociated from each other at least in 616. No clearer example was ASM 121 heading into ASM 122. Conway set things up for MJ to take over for Gwen immediately.Think about it, he could have had Peter go full Frank Castle on Norman ( an idea that was certainly possible since he first appeared 7 issues later), but he used MJ to stop Peter from acting on his worst instincts. As for Ghost Spider, there is no doubt she is more popular then the Original. Why? The little girls of today are interested in the character, while few girls in the pet ASM 121 era were interested in super hero comics.

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    As a few others have pointed out, Marvel is a company made up of people with their own opinions, which will vary from people who are very onboard and those who are not. Mary Jane does seem to be coming back into the fold for the franchise as a whole, however if that's because the creators that like her in her traditional role are directing new content or just things swinging back that way after the other status quo has run its course for the time being can be debated.

    I mean, with creators, it's not really a black and white "we love her"/"we hate her." I mean, Joe Quesada, who thought that Spider-Man and MJ shouldn't be married in the main comics, did go on record as liking the Spider-Girl series where they were a couple. Dan Slott, who's kinda persona non gratta with the married camp, did write a miniseries about them as a couple, which he stated was a project that he wanted to do. Conversely, Gerry Conway, who's well-known as a writer who wanted them to be a couple, has stated that he didn't think the should be married. J. Michael Straczynski has stated that he liked writing them as a married couple, but when OMD came around, he took the assignment professionally (as I recall, his main complaints were that he was micromanaged in regards to the specifics of the plot, not that he was given the job in the first place).

    Quote Originally Posted by RD155 View Post
    Slott doesn’t have a good voice or feel for the character. He never did as far as I’m concerned. He also at times came off as overly sensitive towards fans when they would criticize his work at times. It’s interesting because I was a huge fan of his work with She Hulk. Absolutely love that run in its entirety. So believe me, I was excited to see him work on my favorite character. It just never clicked for me and I also didn’t like what he did with MJ at all.
    A good writer won't always turn out gold. Dan Slott may well be a good writer (haven't personally found that his writing clicks with me much, but mileage may vary), but still have been the wrong choice for Spider-Man (or at least as the main creative voice). I mean he really seemed to love high sci-fi concepts and doing out of the box stuff that didn't really fit with a street-level character. Remember when his post-Spider-Man career was announced to include the F4, my first thought was that seemed to be a much better fit for his writing style and interests.

    (As far as Slott being thin-skinned with fans, I also saw him put up with a lot of abuse from them as well -- remember seeing on the forums people blaming him for OMD despite that being before his time. I wasn't overly-impressed with how he handled himself, but still, he had a lot of provocation.)
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    As a few others have pointed out, Marvel is a company made up of people with their own opinions, which will vary from people who are very onboard and those who are not. Mary Jane does seem to be coming back into the fold for the franchise as a whole, however if that's because the creators that like her in her traditional role are directing new content or just things swinging back that way after the other status quo has run its course for the time being can be debated.

    I mean, with creators, it's not really a black and white "we love her"/"we hate her." I mean, Joe Quesada, who thought that Spider-Man and MJ shouldn't be married in the main comics, did go on record as liking the Spider-Girl series where they were a couple. Dan Slott, who's kinda persona non gratta with the married camp, did write a miniseries about them as a couple, which he stated was a project that he wanted to do. Conversely, Gerry Conway, who's well-known as a writer who wanted them to be a couple, has stated that he didn't think the should be married. J. Michael Straczynski has stated that he liked writing them as a married couple, but when OMD came around, he took the assignment professionally (as I recall, his main complaints were that he was micromanaged in regards to the specifics of the plot, not that he was given the job in the first place).



    A good writer won't always turn out gold. Dan Slott may well be a good writer (haven't personally found that his writing clicks with me much, but mileage may vary), but still have been the wrong choice for Spider-Man (or at least as the main creative voice). I mean he really seemed to love high sci-fi concepts and doing out of the box stuff that didn't really fit with a street-level character. Remember when his post-Spider-Man career was announced to include the F4, my first thought was that seemed to be a much better fit for his writing style and interests.

    (As far as Slott being thin-skinned with fans, I also saw him put up with a lot of abuse from them as well -- remember seeing on the forums people blaming him for OMD despite that being before his time. I wasn't overly-impressed with how he handled himself, but still, he had a lot of provocation.)
    Why do people dislike Dan Slott? Think of this quote: “Attitude, not aptitude determines altitude.” ( Zig Ziglar). Basically his attitude sucked. Think of his snarky comments “Peter as Charlie Brown” or “No use for MJ.” He had to have known what the reaction would be. He also basically gave the finger to fans with stories like “Jackpot” which once again was designed to get a certain reaction. Personally speaking I can live with bad stories ( like I have tolerated bad hockey from my New York Islanders for decades), but giving me the finger? No way.

  9. #24
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    As some have stated before, I don't think Marvel is a "hive mind" where everyone shares the same opinion of the character. So some may love the character and some may not. In general, I think we're entering an age where people working in the industry have more of an affection/nostalgia for Mary Jane than they did 10-20 years ago. The nineties and the noughties (up until OMD) did a lot to establish MJ as Marvel's Lois Lane.

  10. #25
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    As some have stated before, I don't think Marvel is a "hive mind" where everyone shares the same opinion of the character. So some may love the character and some may not. In general, I think we're entering an age where people working in the industry have more of an affection/nostalgia for Mary Jane than they did 10-20 years ago. The nineties and the noughties (up until OMD) did a lot to establish MJ as Marvel's Lois Lane.
    And that was before they started depicting her as a reporter .

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    And that was before they started depicting her as a reporter .
    Lo that's when the comparisons became far more literal.


    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    Gwen and MJ have long been disassociated from each other at least in 616. No clearer example was ASM 121 heading into ASM 122. Conway set things up for MJ to take over for Gwen immediately.Think about it, he could have had Peter go full Frank Castle on Norman ( an idea that was certainly possible since he first appeared 7 issues later), but he used MJ to stop Peter from acting on his worst instincts. As for Ghost Spider, there is no doubt she is more popular then the Original. Why? The little girls of today are interested in the character, while few girls in the pet ASM 121 era were interested in super hero comics.
    I think Gwen Stacy's use in Spectacular Spider-Man and in three live action movies elevated classic Gwen's profile considerably among younger audiences. The Mark Webb films, in particular, marketed Gwen as an alternative to Mary Jane. However, I think Spider-Gwen's popularity among younger generations is just reverting the status quo to what it used to be in terms of MJ's preeminence as Peter Parker's love interest, and allows for a version of Gwen Stacy and Mary Jane to coexist in adaptations without competing with one another.

  12. #27
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    I think Gwen Stacy's use in Spectacular Spider-Man and in three live action movies elevated classic Gwen's profile considerably among younger audiences. The Mark Webb films, in particular, marketed Gwen as an alternative to Mary Jane. However, I think Spider-Gwen's popularity among younger generations is just reverting the status quo to what it used to be in terms of MJ's preeminence as Peter Parker's love interest, and allows for a version of Gwen Stacy and Mary Jane to coexist in adaptations without competing with one another.
    Even though that hasn't really played out much, other than using MJ as a Gwen supporting character.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Even though that hasn't really played out much, other than using MJ as a Gwen supporting character.
    ITSV frames MJ as Peter's love interest, and Gwen Stacy as an alternate Spider-woman. The recent Marvel Spider-man Cartoon does the same. And I suspect sequels to the PS4 game will do the same if they ever get around to introducing Gwen Stacy.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    ITSV frames MJ as Peter's love interest, and Gwen Stacy as an alternate Spider-woman. The recent Marvel Spider-man Cartoon does the same. And I suspect sequels to the PS4 game will do the same if they ever get around to introducing Gwen Stacy.
    Yeah, but like I said before I found it interesting that that also seemed to separate MJ and Gwen a lot of as characters compared to how they originally were in the comics.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Yeah, but like I said before I found it interesting that that also seemed to separate MJ and Gwen a lot of as characters compared to how they originally were in the comics.
    Yeah that's what I was trying to state by my initial comment. That, with Spider-Gwen around, MJ and Gwen aren't seen as direct competitors as they had been traditionally.

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