Does DC like Superman?

[PCN24454]

I remember the OG Power Rangers being considered to be "unrealistically altruistic teenagers", so it's not like Superman is alone on this.

[Powerboy]

DC and WB don't seem to like what Superman is, an honest and good character who will always do what is right. Or rather, they don't seem to think that's what audiences like. That's why they subvert him by making him a villain or make him glum and unsure. It's nonsense of course and that type of hero can still be good if done well.

This is part of it.

Back in the 1980s, when they were planning on doing a Batman movie, the prevailing wisdom was that it should be lighthearted fun because, for the most part, that's what the Chris Reeve Superman movies were and the first two and even the third were very successful. Luckily, one of the Superman movie writers, Tom Mankiewicz, told them that was a big mistake. Batman isn't Superman. They should make it as dark as they can get away with. As he put it, "suits" (the business people) know something works or doesn't work but they have no idea why.

Jump ahead decades. The DK movies are a big success. So, hey, it works. So let's do Superman and every character that way. But, this time, there was no Tom Mankiewicz to explain it to them.

So, as you said, we get a dark, moody, uncertain character in a dark, moody grey world. Worse, we get villain Superman (in the computer games) and it does appeal to a certain audience but they do stuff like that because they don't think Superman works anymore or they try to do something like SR, a dark, brooding Superman that was technically a sequel to a lighter Superman. Well, hey, we tried a lighter Superman and it didn't work. No, you didn't. You did a dark, depressing Superman movie that was a sequel to a lighter Superman.

Although I think I'm misusing "light". The Reeve movies and many other Superman stories were often very dramatic. But, overall, they were hopeful and Superman was confident. The fact that so many Superman fans (myself included) have a positive view of "Justice League", at least the Superman parts, really shows how desperate we were for a recognizable Superman because JL was abysmal in every way except it's positive and confident Superman and, even then, it was done in a lazy, talking down to the audience sort of way. It was just welcome to an audience so starved for the "real" Superman that anything that hit the dartboard at all, even if at the edge, was welcome.

[manofsteel1979]

I can’t believe people are still sore about Superman being a jobber on the Supergirl show. It seems like they cancelled her show to make way for his so he won in the end anyway

Does anyone seriously think now that they can make a Superman show they’re not going to lean into him being the bestest and brightest? Supes and Flash are pretty much going to have to carry the DCTV verse now that Arrow and Supergirl are ending.

And soon it could be just Supes as I dont see the Flash lasting more than maybe two more years. I think Grant Gustin said recently that he had two more years on his contract and that he's more than likely moving on. I guess theoretically they could keep the series going by doing what they did in the comics and have Wally West take over ,but very soon Supes could be it.


As far as the OP....I have certainly said in the past I think DC had it in for Superman. I certainly still think they clearly aren't sure what to do with the character and property, but I don't think Warners and DC actively hate or dislike Superman. I'm sure they love the merchandising revenue and the name recognition. They certainly love that logo and the iconography. Superman in many ways is much bigger than the comics. He's Paul Bunyan. He's folklore.

I do think the long running legal fight between the Siegel heirs and Warners is a big reason that Superman was in such a mess for so long and it all seemed to hit fever pitch around the mid 00s and 2013 or so. It's no coincidence that The Dark knight trilogy and the Marvel cinematic universe sprung up and redefined Superheroes in the larger culture and all Superman could claim to his name was a TV show on the WB and a half hearted retred of past glories on the big screen in 2006. Superman sort of fell behind the curve while his contemporaries grew and evolved. That's pretty hard to overcome.

[Agent Z]

DC and WB don't seem to like what Superman is, an honest and good character who will always do what is right. Or rather, they don't seem to think that's what audiences like. That's why they subvert him by making him a villain or make him glum and unsure. It's nonsense of course and that type of hero can still be good if done well.

There are far more instances of them not doing that with him.

[Agent Z]

This is part of it.

Back in the 1980s, when they were planning on doing a Batman movie, the prevailing wisdom was that it should be lighthearted fun because, for the most part, that's what the Chris Reeve Superman movies were and the first two and even the third were very successful. Luckily, one of the Superman movie writers, Tom Mankiewicz, told them that was a big mistake. Batman isn't Superman. They should make it as dark as they can get away with. As he put it, "suits" (the business people) know something works or doesn't work but they have no idea why.

Jump ahead decades. The DK movies are a big success. So, hey, it works. So let's do Superman and every character that way. But, this time, there was no Tom Mankiewicz to explain it to them.

So, as you said, we get a dark, moody, uncertain character in a dark, moody grey world. Worse, we get villain Superman (in the computer games) and it does appeal to a certain audience but they do stuff like that because they don't think Superman works anymore or they try to do something like SR, a dark, brooding Superman that was technically a sequel to a lighter Superman. Well, hey, we tried a lighter Superman and it didn't work. No, you didn't. You did a dark, depressing Superman movie that was a sequel to a lighter Superman.

Although I think I'm misusing "light". The Reeve movies and many other Superman stories were often very dramatic. But, overall, they were hopeful and Superman was confident. The fact that so many Superman fans (myself included) have a positive view of "Justice League", at least the Superman parts, really shows how desperate we were for a recognizable Superman because JL was abysmal in every way except it's positive and confident Superman and, even then, it was done in a lazy, talking down to the audience sort of way. It was just welcome to an audience so starved for the "real" Superman that anything that hit the dartboard at all, even if at the edge, was welcome.

Except they didn't do everyone that way. Wonder Woman wasn't like that, Green Lantern wasn't like that and frankly saying Superman was like Batman in the movies is extremely hyperbolic. No, he wasn't as confident as people are used to but that is standard for Superman in origin stories and the stories they were doing with him are not things that can so easily be done with Batman.

[manwhohaseverything]

I remember the OG Power Rangers being considered to be "unrealistically altruistic teenagers", so it's not like Superman is alone on this.

There is altruism. Then there is having no ambition, passion,... Etc essentially having no life for yourself. When they give him a life its absolutely filled with mundane office, family and relationship drama. The guy is superman, not averageman. Superman's altruism ain't the problem. He just ain't entertaining. His powers, presentation of it and the action overall is boring. People need to realise, entertainment first. Forgive me, but if there exist people that find a flying brick that's absolutely too safe to say anything at all, boring. The guy can't even joke. He is a stick in the mud. Heck! People take this stuff too seriously. A character modelled after a comedian being unfunny is the biggest sin. Some slapstick humour would be appreciated. Just trip, fall and make something fun happen. Some addressing of the fourth wall would be much appreciated.Just rescue the damsel, beat the giant lizard and wink at the camera.

[KC]

There are far more instances of them not doing that with him.

There are still so many examples of them doing this especially with the more mainstream Superman media like the Injustice games for making him a villain and the DCEU movies for making him glum.

[KC]

There is altruism. Then there is having no ambition, passion,... Etc essentially having no life for yourself. When they give him a life its absolutely filled with mundane office, family and relationship drama. The guy is superman, not averageman. Superman's altruism ain't the problem. He just ain't entertaining. His powers, presentation of it and the action overall is boring. People need to realise, entertainment first. Forgive me, but if there exist people that find a flying brick that's absolutely too safe to say anything at all, boring. The guy can't even joke. He is a stick in the mud. Heck! People take this stuff too seriously. A character modelled after a comedian being unfunny is the biggest sin. Some slapstick humour would be appreciated. Just trip, fall and make something fun happen. Some addressing of the fourth wall would be much appreciated.Just rescue the damsel, beat the giant lizard and wink at the camera.

That honestly sounds more like a you problem than a problem with Superman.

[Powerboy]

Except they didn't do everyone that way. Wonder Woman wasn't like that, Green Lantern wasn't like that and frankly saying Superman was like Batman in the movies is extremely hyperbolic. No, he wasn't as confident as people are used to but that is standard for Superman in origin stories and the stories they were doing with him are not things that can so easily be done with Batman.

Wonder Woman was directed by Patty Jenkins. Green Lantern was directed by Martin Campbell. M o S and B v S were directed by Zack Snyder and very much carry the atmosphere he chose to project.

As to Superman, I felt the character himself was pretty decent considering the world he was in and his upbringing. But it was the atmosphere of the movie surrounding him that I was referring to. I was clearly not saying that Superman was like Batman in every character trait. In fact, Batman tended to exude confidence. I was talking about the movie itself and saying the movie came across like a Batman movie, dark and grey.

[godisawesome]

I kind of think the issue with current Dc creatives is they seem to have somewhat polarized, in the way some fans, including myself, sometimes have: you’ve got one group that thinks “Classic Superman” is inadequate and outdated, and needs to be reimagined in some way, and another group that thinks that “Classic Superman” is sacrosanct and must be preserved at all costs.

The catch, of course, is that “Classic Superman” never existed, and everyone tends to have a few soft spots and favorites from multiple eras. It’s just that people tend to take a side in terms of what Superman “should be” and end up struggling a bit with writing a Superman story for what he *is*... in part because they tend to feel the need to change what he is in pursuit of some Platonic Superman ideal.

The result is that main-line Superman is in a constant state of flux, while the alternate reality Supermans are easier to write because they’re just a vague idea that writers are more interested in doing themselves.

I don’t think DC hates Superman. I think they’re constantly arguing about what Superman is with each other... somewhat like what often happens to Wonder Woman.

[PCN24454]

I kind of think the issue with current Dc creatives is they seem to have somewhat polarized, in the way some fans, including myself, sometimes have: you’ve got one group that thinks “Classic Superman” is inadequate and outdated, and needs to be reimagined in some way, and another group that thinks that “Classic Superman” is sacrosanct and must be preserved at all costs.

The catch, of course, is that “Classic Superman” never existed, and everyone tends to have a few soft spots and favorites from multiple eras. It’s just that people tend to take a side in terms of what Superman “should be” and end up struggling a bit with writing a Superman story for what he *is*... in part because they tend to feel the need to change what he is in pursuit of some Platonic Superman ideal.

The result is that main-line Superman is in a constant state of flux, while the alternate reality Supermans are easier to write because they’re just a vague idea that writers are more interested in doing themselves.

I don’t think DC hates Superman. I think they’re constantly arguing about what Superman is with each other... somewhat like what often happens to Wonder Woman.

Considering how I've gone back and read those books, I have to agree with you.

[Agent Z]

There are still so many examples of them doing this especially with the more mainstream Superman media like the Injustice games for making him a villain and the DCEU movies for making him glum.

Two video games and one movie are not "so many". You're acting as if these are the only iterations of Superman in the mainstream. And the Injustice games had a good Superman in the first one.

[Killerbee911]

There's not one but TWO video games where he's a villain, the mainstream books seem to be stuck in some sort of limbo where no one knows what to do with them, he's not a major part of any of DC's "event" books (while they brought back the GA Batman for their next one), there's no new movies on the horizon while Batman is getting yet another movie franchise and even his main VILLAIN got a movie, no one seems to know what his current origin or history is, and the only "new" thing he's getting is a TV show that someone else outside of DC proper came up with. Even when they come up with something clever, like giving him a ten year old son, they botch it. Now he's just another teenager. While Damien still gets to be 12 or 13 or whatever age he is. The Arrow-verse seems to treat him with more respect than the comic book company that owns him. Their version of COIE understood what fans wanted to see and gave it to them.
.

So lets see

-Superman is showing up in two video games
-He has two books(action and Superman), Costar with Batman in Batman/Superman, Is in the Justice League
-Legion of superheroes is kind of spin off book, They didn't ruin his son
-He is in the event books, not in limbo
-You are comparing Superman to the most popular hero on the market- Compare him to anyone not named Wolverine, Spiderman, Hulk or Wonder Woman, Flash or Batman.
- And we know why Superman is sort of on break because again he didn't quite work on the big screen. That said he showing up Synder Cut Justice League project and I am pretty Cavil has re up for couple of appearances in DC movies
-He just got animated movie
-He has show on CW.

Imagine being Green Lantern,Black Panther or Ironman fan watching Superman fans complain about being "hated". Some Superman fans biggest problem is their metric for success is gauged off of the Batman/ Spiderman crew that Superman is still apart of but he is clear the lowest one in the crew. You compare Superman to just about any other character he is smashing success. The only real problem for Superman is Hollywood has flubbed his last solo two movies. And the group projects with him also failed. It is just a waiting game until they decide to push another solo movie. But with a TV show and DC using him in spot duty in upcoming movies that will be awhile.

Now the best rumor on the planet depending on your feeling is that DC is thinking about making Justice League 2 but for HBO MAX as sort of series movie like what they are doing with Synder Cut. And guess who will show up in that.

[manwhohaseverything]

That honestly sounds more like a you problem than a problem with Superman.

I haven't seen superman-ish humour from anyone other than morrison or that guy that wrote green arrow where superman guest appears in rebirth. Superman doesn't do slapstick. He doesn't do humour. period. Last time, he did it was in donner movies in partial ways. I guarantee you superman wouldn't make it to top 10 action sequences of the decade.the thing that comes close is the plane rescue of superman returns. Then it didn't have much action. Snyder's superman movies action was just exhausting as a viewer, not engaging. Heck! Batman has had better action in games, snyder movies, animated series.. Etc. Btas is stylised and is presented in way great way. Superman tas? Not so much. Superman is modelled after john carter.Do you really believe the character does justice to john carter which spawned things like star wars? I certainly, feel otherwise. Sure there are great arcs with superman and new gods in postcrisis. But, new gods is a dcu ip and it ain't part of superman's verse. So superverse is essentially really limited.

-Superman is showing up in two video games

Yeah! I Would rather he not. Especially, those batman/harley games. It's not doing anyone, any favours.

[Killerbee911]

Yeah! I Would rather he not. Especially, those batman/harley games. It's not doing anyone, any favours.

That is your opinion, Appearances don't hurt characters. I am going hit you something that is going to surprise you not everyone like Superman for the same reason.