Did Jim Lee, Rob Liefeld, and Bob Harris ruin the X-Men?

[ericng]

Claremont did great things for the X-Men early in his run but towards the end, I couldn't stomach his writing. It was unbearable.

I wouldn't say those three ruined X-Men because we did some good stories out of them. But comparing their heyday to Claremont's, Claremont wins.

Towards the end #279, the Muir Island Saga story was inconsistent because Chris said there was interference from the editor or Jim Lee (can't remember who), so that's why he left.

Jim Lee even has his name as co-writer, imagine that. Chris didn't even manage to complete his Muir Island Saga before leaving at ish #280.

If there weren't any interference from others, we would have many more years of great stories and new interesting characters.

Luckily, Gambit was created in ish #266, just one year earlier.

Later writers all focused on violence, guns and battle which I find really boring.

Chris's stories focused on mystery, new characters, character interaction, character development in addition to battle.

The only other issue that came close after Chris left was UXM 392 which included these elements.

Sorry, not a fan of Morrison's run, too much death and stories weren't that interesting.

[BroHomo]

Towards the end #279, the Muir Island Saga story was inconsistent because Chris said there was interference from the editor or Jim Lee (can't remember who), so that's why he left.

Jim Lee even has his name as co-writer, imagine that. Chris didn't even manage to complete his Muir Island Saga before leaving at ish #280.

If there weren't any interference from others, we would have many more years of great stories and new interesting characters.

Luckily, Gambit was created in ish #266, just one year earlier.

Later writers all focused on violence, guns and battle which I find really boring.

Chris's stories focused on mystery, new characters, character interaction, character development in addition to battle.

The only other issue that came close after Chris left was UXM 392 which included these elements.

Sorry, not a fan of Morrison's run, too much death and stories weren't that interesting.

His X-Men/New Mutants Forever tho... BIG W.O.T.

[OopsIdiditagain]

I don't think the x-men have ever been ruined. That would take a storyline that makes every character unlikeable and sucks the life out of the fandom.

[Voices From the Eyrie]

Luckily, Gambit was created in ish #266, just one year earlier.

The greatest irony of Gambit, he was purposely designed to be lame... he's basically a Mr. Sinister clone aged to his twenties (hence the eyes); and designed to be an eleven-year-old child's idea of what's cool, but lame to everybody else (Claremont has gone on record about this). As someone who was a little older when Gambit came along, he was never cool to me... hell, I thought he was lame. He was supposed to betray the X-Men.

... then he became a super star character. And his romance with Rogue. Ugh.

I still believe Gambit is a Sinister clone; and I am waiting for a writer to make it official.

[AdamFTF]

The greatest irony of Gambit, he was purposely designed to be lame... he's basically a Mr. Sinister clone aged to his twenties (hence the eyes); and designed to be an eleven-year-old child's idea of what's cool, but lame to everybody else (Claremont has gone on record about this). As someone who was a little older when Gambit came along, he was never cool to me... hell, I thought he was lame. He was supposed to betray the X-Men.

... then he became a super star character. And his romance with Rogue. Ugh.

I still believe Gambit is a Sinister clone; and I am waiting for a writer to make it official.

Why would we see him as lame? He never seemed that way to me?

[SerCo]

Ugh that title... hyperbole much? You may not like Lee and Liefeld but they did make X-Men the mega-team they were in the 90s. In fact I don't think the X-Men were ever "ruined". They had good and bad eras like every other comic-book but that's it.

[Killerbee911]

When someone says "Ruin" what they are talking about?

Feb 2020

1 1 1 Wolverine 1 $7.99 02/19/20 Marvel 190,568
2 2 3 X-Men 6 $3.99 02/12/20 Marvel 92,287
3 3 2 X-Men 7 $4.99 02/26/20 Marvel 76,691
4 n.a. n.a. Batman 88 (All) $4.99 02/05/20 DC 74,423
5 n.a. n.a. Batman 89 (All) $4.99 02/19/20 DC 73,390

********Feb 2010******
1 1 Blackest Night 7 $3.99 DC 130,613
2 2 Siege 2 $3.99 Marvel 108,429
3 5 Green Lantern 51 $2.99 DC 95,509
4 6 Batman And Robin 8 $2.99 DC 87,302
5 7 Batman And Robin 9 $2.99 DC 84,562
10 16 Uncanny X-Men 521 $2.99 Marvel 67,049

Feb 2000
1 - Uncanny X-Men 379 $1.99 Marvel 108,443
2 - X-Men 99 $1.99 Marvel 104,696
3 - Wolverine 149 $1.99 Marvel 81,154
4 - Aria Angela Heavenly Creatures 1 $2.95 Image 80,191
5 - Avengers 27 $2.99 Marvel 75,576

Feb 1995

1 3 The Amazing X-Men 2 $1.95 Marvel
2 4 The Astonishing X-Men 2 $1.95 Marvel
3 5 Weapon X 2 $1.95 Marvel
4 6 Spawn 29 $1.95 Image
5 8 Mutants Generation Next 2 $1.95 Marvel
6 9 Gambit & The X-Ternals 2 $1.95 Marvel
7 10 Factor-X 2 $1.95 Marvel
8 12 X-Man 2 $1.95 Marvel
9 16 X-Calibre 2 $1.95 Marvel


Feb 1991
1 2 X-Men 7 $1.25 03/03/92 Marvel
2 3 Uncanny X-Men 287 $1.25 02/06/92 Marvel
3 6 X-Force 9 $1.25 03/10/92 Marvel
4 5 Cage 1 $1.50 02/11/92 Marvel
5 4 Spider-Man 21 $1.75 02/18/92 Marvel

Just a quick spot check of how the X-men has perform over last two decades,You will have your answer. The X-men haven't been ruined by any move made but there was clear period where the X-men slipped you can kind of tell where it happened but this spot check doesn't tell whole story because in that period had Morrison and Bendis's run.

[yogaflame]

Compared to the numbers from Claremont's run, the franchise is in ruins.

[SerCo]

I would say that current x-books are, quality wise, much better than Claremont's latest efforts.

[Agent Z]

The greatest irony of Gambit, he was purposely designed to be lame... he's basically a Mr. Sinister clone aged to his twenties (hence the eyes); and designed to be an eleven-year-old child's idea of what's cool, but lame to everybody else (Claremont has gone on record about this). As someone who was a little older when Gambit came along, he was never cool to me... hell, I thought he was lame. He was supposed to betray the X-Men.

... then he became a super star character. And his romance with Rogue. Ugh.

I still believe Gambit is a Sinister clone; and I am waiting for a writer to make it official.

Claremont's intended backstory for Gambit should never see the light of day.

[Drexelhand]

Claremont's intended backstory for Gambit should never see the light of day.

And yet the backstory that he gives Gambit in X-Men: The End is one that works and among other things in that series, its canonization would be amazing.

[Frobisher]

Why would we see him as lame? He never seemed that way to me?

He’s 100% a Poochie. They had to make him actually care about Rogue as a “weakness”, otherwise there’s nothing interesting to him beyond betrayal and grifter slickness.

[Agent Z]

And yet the backstory that he gives Gambit in X-Men: The End is one that works and among other things in that series, its canonization would be amazing.

We'll agree to disagree. Not everything Claremont touches is gold.

[Ricochet Rita]

I can't assert that CC would have been so good for a long time, given how much the comic industry had changed in opposition to his ways, but

Towards the end #279, the Muir Island Saga story was inconsistent because Chris said there was interference from the editor or Jim Lee (can't remember who), so that's why he left.

Jim Lee even has his name as co-writer, imagine that. Chris didn't even manage to complete his Muir Island Saga before leaving at ish #280.

^^^^^ THIS.

Later writers all focused on violence, guns and battle which I find really boring.

I would add that all the characters were interchangeable, which is the borest thing to be.

Chris's stories focused on mystery, new characters, character interaction, character development in addition to battle.

This, too.

The greatest irony of Gambit, he was purposely designed to be lame... he's basically a Mr. Sinister clone aged to his twenties (hence the eyes); and designed to be an eleven-year-old child's idea of what's cool, but lame to everybody else (Claremont has gone on record about this). As someone who was a little older when Gambit came along, he was never cool to me... hell, I thought he was lame. He was supposed to betray the X-Men.

... then he became a super star character. And his romance with Rogue. Ugh.

I liked a lot more Mike Collins' Gambit than Lee's.

[Sin Nick]

Man, y'all trippin hard in this thread in regards to Gambit. He was always and is in the top 10 for coolest X-Men ever to exist. He was being primed to replace Logan as the most popular when he debuted, but obviously that didn't happen. When I think of lame X-Men, Gambit wouldn't even be a consideration.

As for the whole Jim Lee stuff, he was just a young pup during his time with the X-Men and I doubt he had much pull deciding which direction the X-Men were going back then. I'm sure it was an editorial decision and Jim was just doing what he was told. Claremont even went to work with Jim again just 2 years later on Wildcats, so I doubt he felt Jim was in any way responsible for the direction X-Men was heading and his departure.