Did Jim Lee, Rob Liefeld, and Bob Harris ruin the X-Men?

[yogaflame]

Because the later writers/editors were afraid of breaking what he had created.

Those 16 years created most of the core concepts, characters, and relationships all later runs or adaptations are incapable of escaping. Even something as wildly creative as Hickman's run wouldn't work without that core foundation.

[IN-a-Synch]

I liked the Twelve a hell of a lot more than Onslaught. It was Magneto War that was godawful.

I think IMO the buildup to Onslaught was great the crossover could have been better but I did enjoy the conclusion more than the Twelve

[Triniking1234]

Onslaught Saga turning into Super Smash Bros. killed it.

[AdamFTF]

I think there's a certain irony to this discussion. It comes so close to an argument for a more author-centered/author-owned approach like the indies use or foreign comics like manga use. But it can't be. Because Chris Claremont wasn't the creator of the X-Men as a series. He created a lot of stuff in the X-Men, but he was writer/writing team #4. First was Stan Lee, then there was Roy Thomas and Neal Adams (I believe Adams plotted and Thomas scripted. Not sure). Then Len Wein wrote Giant Size X-Men #1. Then Chris Claremont was put on. He wouldn't have gotten the job if they had that approach. His claim to "ownership" for that title is that his stuff was popular. Also, he was put on a lot of stuff back then and a lot of it didn't last (Captain Britain, Ms. Marvel, Iron Fist, etc).

Also, I feel like the age of the "superstar artists" that included guys like Lee and Liefeld came in some small part from Marvel over-correcting from how they used to treat artists in the '60s and '70s. We've all heard about how Stan Lee used to get all the credit while Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko barely got any. By the '90s, people who'd been in the comics culture long enough to read the fanzines and hear stories at cons were running things and they made up for it by giving their new artists way more clout than they deserved.

[Ra-El]

I'm gonna say that it was probably inevitable for CC's hold on XMen to go away eventually, just due to the nature of big business. Victim of own success and all that stuff. When Xmen were obscure it was possible to give them fully to a relatively unheard of author and that allowed for potential. In the 80s the business side of comics was still relatively lowish and the corporate pressure to manage and oversee not as much, much more freedom allotted. All this would have changed by the 90s just due to the expanded opportunities for animation, TV, film etc. Toys even. These more structural conditions would have stifled creative impulse regardless of specific individuals or their short-term approaches.

By 2020 we can say perhaps it is more allowed again for even mainstream comics to veer and diverge and there isn't as much expectation of them cohering with their vastly more popular and lucrative offsprings in the TV/Cinema worlds... but still, the fact Hickman is vehemently against permanent death? Says a lot about why he's favored by Marvel. They don't want real change.

The essence of the Claremont run was realism and evolution, characters were not made absolutist cartoons of NOBLE HERO and CACKLING EVILDOER. There was ambiguity, there was implicit social commentary, there was a lot of subversive provocative content that you could think about. And the team lineup itself varied * a lot *. The idea was older characters could fade into the background and let newer generations replace them. Has this been permitted to continue at any point since ...? Nope. Sadly

But even then it wasn't true, we know that if Claremont had his way Cyclops would have retired. He wrote on that direction for sure, but he never actually delivered, because he wasn't allowed to.

Anyway, I think a lot of folks hold Claremont as the ultimate authority on what the X-Men should be, but more and more the franchise is moving away from him. As new fans come along and as writers that didn't grow up on Claremont stuff take the reins, more the X-Men will look different.

Right now, one the biggest names working for Marvel is Donny Cates, and he takes his inspirations from the 90s, from Jim Lee. Soon the writers that have Morrison as their first reference will come to write the X-Men.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Onslaught Saga turning into Super Smash Bros. killed it.

The X-men getting help from the Avengers and other heroes are why it succeeds at what it does, they milk the shared universe for all its worth because these people know each other. Onslaught was too big to be contained in the X-titles.

[baxer]

But even then it wasn't true, we know that if Claremont had his way Cyclops would have retired. He wrote on that direction for sure, but he never actually delivered, because he wasn't allowed to.

Anyway, I think a lot of folks hold Claremont as the ultimate authority on what the X-Men should be, but more and more the franchise is moving away from him. As new fans come along and as writers that didn't grow up on Claremont stuff take the reins, more the X-Men will look different.

Right now, one the biggest names working for Marvel is Donny Cates, and he takes his inspirations from the 90s, from Jim Lee. Soon the writers that have Morrison as their first reference will come to write the X-Men.

Writers inspired by Morrison are already writing X-men, they have been writing for over a decade.

A writer like Cates would be nice to x-books, he just comes like a rock stars BOOOMM

The X-men getting help from the Avengers and other heroes are why it succeeds at what it does, they milk the shared universe for all its worth because these people know each other. Onslaught was too big to be contained in the X-titles.

I think it is nice to interact with Marvel Universe without being a strawman antagonistic way

[Agent Z]

The X-men getting help from the Avengers and other heroes are why it succeeds at what it does, they milk the shared universe for all its worth because these people know each other. Onslaught was too big to be contained in the X-titles.

Who's the woman in red in between Steve and Ben?

[Steel Inquisitor]

Who's the woman in red in between Steve and Ben?

Scarlet Witch.

[Ikari]

Illyana's story should have ended with that Legacy virus story. She's been a very thin character since they brought her back.

Magik has become bit a victim of her own success, like Wolverine, Psylocke etc in the past. In lots of stories she is just used for visuals and a snarky comment, with little attention given to her personality.

By 2020 we can say perhaps it is more allowed again for even mainstream comics to veer and diverge and there isn't as much expectation of them cohering with their vastly more popular and lucrative offsprings in the TV/Cinema worlds... but still, the fact Hickman is vehemently against permanent death? Says a lot about why he's favored by Marvel. They don't want real change.

The essence of the Claremont run was realism and evolution, characters were not made absolutist cartoons of NOBLE HERO and CACKLING EVILDOER. There was ambiguity, there was implicit social commentary, there was a lot of subversive provocative content that you could think about. And the team lineup itself varied * a lot *. The idea was older characters could fade into the background and let newer generations replace them. Has this been permitted to continue at any point since ...? Nope. Sadly

Agree in principle, however in Claremont's time it was easier since the original X-Men had never been very popular in the first place. It's not like there was a rabid fanbase demanding to bring Iceman or Angel back. This allowed CC & Byrne to employ them sparingly and when they did drop by, making it look like a big deal. By contrast, writing Wolverine, Cyclops or Storm off for considerable period of time would be hardly allowed (though personally I would be all for it).