Kaine vs Lady Deathstrike

[Beadle]

Dude volunteered for experimental drug therapy and vita-rays to help him fight in a world war. If you folks want to suggest that is the same as Ben Johnson cheating for Olympic glory then hey that is a certain take on it. Disrespectful to the character and Cap fans for sure, but definitely one take on it.

You do realise that the super-steroids comment was just a glib side-joke, right?

But equally I’m somewhat intrigued by the concept of being disrespectful to a fictional character. I mean I really hate the idea of causing offence to someone who doesn’t even have the privilege of actually existing. Especially after they’ve put in the effort to earn our respect with all those noble imaginary acts they’ve done over their many years of not being an actual person.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

You do realise that the super-steroids comment was just a glib side-joke, right?

But equally I’m somewhat intrigued by the concept of being disrespectful to a fictional character. I mean I really hate the idea of causing offence to someone who doesn’t even have the privilege of actually existing. Especially after they’ve put in the effort to earn our respect with all those noble imaginary acts they’ve done over their many years of not being an actual person.

Yea, saying he's on super steroids isn't near as bad as saying he spent time as a Nazi...

Wait, both of these things are true you say? egad.

[Crawfo]

You do realise that the super-steroids comment was just a glib side-joke, right?

But equally I’m somewhat intrigued by the concept of being disrespectful to a fictional character. I mean I really hate the idea of causing offence to someone who doesn’t even have the privilege of actually existing. Especially after they’ve put in the effort to earn our respect with all those noble imaginary acts they’ve done over their many years of not being an actual person.

I mean it's such a stale trope.... is it even funny anymore? I forget though how hostile this place can feel.

[Crawfo]

Yea, saying he's on super steroids isn't near as bad as saying he spent time as a Nazi...

Wait, both of these things are true you say? egad.

It is less the steroids, and more the lump him in the same boat as drug cheats, is what I am getting at.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

It is less the steroids, and more the lump him in the same boat as drug cheats, is what I am getting at.

I mean that's... kinda sorta what he is, but it's less cheating to win a sporting event and more 'cheating' to protect his home?

The ends are different, but the means to it are the same.

Captain America's story is even paralleled/parodied in the Sentry's own origins, what with a druggie getting his hands on a super concentrated version of the same serum that created Captain America.

So ya know. He's in the same boat as drug cheats as a point of fact.

[Crawfo]

I mean that's... kinda sorta what he is, but it's less cheating to win a sporting event and more 'cheating' to protect his home?

The ends are different, but the means to it are the same.

Captain America's story is even paralleled/parodied in the Sentry's own origins, what with a druggie getting his hands on a super concentrated version of the same serum that created Captain America.

So ya know. He's in the same boat as drug cheats as a point of fact.

That is the problem, cheating at a sport is not at all in any way the same as being experimental being military tech. Your 'point of fact' boils down a character's entire story to being a drug "cheat".

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

That is the problem, cheating at a sport is not at all in any way the same as being experimental being military tech. Your 'point of fact' boils down a character's entire story to being a drug "cheat".

… I mean, he was given something that allowed him to 'skip the line' and achieve the physical peak of humanity. What would call that if not cheating? Just because you don't like that that's what happened, doesn't mean that's not what happened. Plus, already acknowledged that taking steroids to cheat in sporting events, is not the same as what happened with Cap, only that the means (super soldier serum/steroids) to achieve their respective ends are.

[Alan2099]

… I mean, he was given something that allowed him to 'skip the line' and achieve the physical peak of humanity. What would call that if not cheating? Just because you don't like that that's what happened, doesn't mean that's not what happened. Plus, already acknowledged that taking steroids to cheat in sporting events, is not the same as what happened with Cap, only that the means (super soldier serum/steroids) to achieve their respective ends are.

That's not what happened. He didn't skip the line. He wasn't even in the line. He wasn't eligible for the line. A mysterious guy he didn't know asked him if he wanted to try some untested medical experiment. That's hardly the same thing as using steroids to cheat.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

That's not what happened. He didn't skip the line. He wasn't even in the line. He wasn't eligible for the line. A mysterious guy he didn't know asked him if he wanted to try some untested medical experiment. That's hardly the same thing as using steroids to cheat.

I mean that doesn't change the whole, "steroids boosted him to physical peak, effectively causing him to skip the line to get there" thing.

[Cthulhu_of_R'lyeh]

Like, you can't say he earned it.

[master of read]

"The serum amplifies everything that is inside, so good becomes great; bad becomes worse. This is why you were chosen. Because the strong man who has known power all his life, may lose respect for that power, but a weak man knows the value of strength and knows... compassion."

[Crawfo]

… I mean, he was given something that allowed him to 'skip the line' and achieve the physical peak of humanity. What would call that if not cheating? Just because you don't like that that's what happened, doesn't mean that's not what happened. Plus, already acknowledged that taking steroids to cheat in sporting events, is not the same as what happened with Cap, only that the means (super soldier serum/steroids) to achieve their respective ends are.

The trope started for the lols, telling a half-truth which is why it's funny, but years later here we are - actually arguing if Cap is an real drug cheat.

[Crawfo]

Like, you can't say he earned it.

Why not? He kept on trying to enlist and eventually made it onto an experimental program then having undergone a vigorous selection process was actually selected for his tenacity determination and courage.

[Beadle]

I think the discussion has gone waaaaaayyyy out of control.

Sharp’s (I mean I think it was Sharp - who the hell knows anymore) original side-comment about super-steroids had nothing to do with Cap’s moral character or comparing him to sporting drugs cheats. It was just a handy, half-joke description of what the SSS effectively is.

Steroids are a thing. They can boost strength, endurance, speed etc., but they’re not exclusively used by sporting cheats. They’re legitimately used in numerous medical applications, as I mentioned before - asthma, some multiple sclerosis treatments, allergies, and in some treatments for certain conditions they’re simply used alongside other drugs just to counteract the other drugs’ deleterious side-effects.

But they’re a drug. Either used as a sporting or body-building aid, or used as a medical treatment, they allow the subject’s body to do things it wouldn’t otherwise be able to do. Otherwise there’d be no reason to use them at all in either type of application.

Use of steroids is not necessarily an indictment on the user’s moral character. And there’s certainly no cause to be worried about being disrespectful to a fictional character even if it were - down that path lies madness.

The Super Soldier Serum:
a) is a drug treatment;
b) boosts physical performance to levels the body couldn’t otherwise achieve.

If you put aside any preconceptions of what you happen to think of steroid use (or actually a comparatively tiny part of the global use of steroids) in terms of the user’s moral fibre, the Super Soldier Serum is effectively no different to a steroid.

The only way in which we’re saying he’s a cheat is in the sense that he’s described as being the absolute physical peak of what a human being can be, but he actually couldn’t have got there without the Super-Steroid Serum... sorry... Super Soldier Serum. So it’s the peak of human achievement except you can’t achieve it purely by being human and working out a lot - you need the drug treatment to get your performance to that level.

....

Of course, we then get into the silliness of people in Marvel who are physically human (I’m not saying they don’t have super-powers, but they’re not ones affecting their musculature), but can somehow do things that Comic Book Peak Humans like Cap, Batman and Black Panther can’t. I’m talking about the likes of Daredevil, Elektra, Classic Kingpin.

Or, heaven forfend, the peakiest of peak humans, Vargas. But let’s not get into that.

[Crawfo]

I think the discussion has gone waaaaaayyyy out of control.

Sharp’s (I mean I think it was Sharp - who the hell knows anymore) original side-comment about super-steroids had nothing to do with Cap’s moral character or comparing him to sporting drugs cheats. It was just a handy, half-joke description of what the SSS effectively is.

Steroids are a thing. They can boost strength, endurance, speed etc., but they’re not exclusively used by sporting cheats. They’re legitimately used in numerous medical applications, as I mentioned before - asthma, some multiple sclerosis treatments, allergies, and in some treatments for certain conditions they’re simply used alongside other drugs just to counteract the other drugs’ deleterious side-effects.

But they’re a drug. Either used as a sporting or body-building aid, or used as a medical treatment, they allow the subject’s body to do things it wouldn’t otherwise be able to do. Otherwise there’d be no reason to use them at all in either type of application.

Use of steroids is not necessarily an indictment on the user’s moral character. And there’s certainly no cause to be worried about being disrespectful to a fictional character even if it were - down that path lies madness.

The Super Soldier Serum:
a) is a drug treatment;
b) boosts physical performance to levels the body couldn’t otherwise achieve.

If you put aside any preconceptions of what you happen to think of steroid use (or actually a comparatively tiny part of the global use of steroids) in terms of the user’s moral fibre, the Super Soldier Serum is effectively no different to a steroid.

The only way in which we’re saying he’s a cheat is in the sense that he’s described as being the absolute physical peak of what a human being can be, but he actually couldn’t have got there without the Super-Steroid Serum... sorry... Super Soldier Serum. So it’s the peak of human achievement except you can’t achieve it purely by being human and working out a lot - you need the drug treatment to get your performance to that level.

....

Of course, we then get into the silliness of people in Marvel who are physically human (I’m not saying they don’t have super-powers, but they’re not ones affecting their musculature), but can somehow do things that Comic Book Peak Humans like Cap, Batman and Black Panther can’t. I’m talking about the likes of Daredevil, Elektra, Classic Kingpin.

Or, heaven forfend, the peakiest of peak humans, Vargas. But let’s not get into that.

Already addressed - it's less the 'steroid' aspect and more the 'cheat' label. (Probably unwise to try and technically compare the SSS to real-life steroids, they are really really different, one is essentially magic serum).