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  1. #31
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    The Batfamily only becomes “nuanced” when it gets stretched thin to include any character with Bat association. The main Batfamily usually have their own books for a reason. Popularity matters. Stuffing a book with a bunch of characters people don’t really want or aren’t interested in, that book isn’t going to last very long. To try and sell the concept of a Batfamily team with fringe members and loose associates would just undermine the very concept of the Batfamily. Enough with the halfway home teams already. Further build on the foundation that made the Batfamily something of worth. Regardless if they might also have a solo. Having a solo shouldn’t be a punishment.
    Even the main Batfamily is in awful shape right now. They can’t keep doing what they have been doing. They can’t keep forgetting about the ones they expect to carry a solo, throwing them to the wayside or undermining them for flavors of the month or characters not going anywhere. Cause all that made for is a bunch of gone nowhere Bat stamped peripheral characters and poorly produced Batfamily satellite books now in the gutter.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 11-10-2020 at 04:30 PM.

  2. #32
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    I haven't read it, any particular reason it was bad?
    The team barely interacts, barely gets developed, characterization is off for certain characters, can't make up its mind regarding Batman, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    The Batfamily only becomes “nuanced” when it gets stretched thin to include any character with Bat association. The main Batfamily usually have their own books for a reason. Popularity matters. Stuffing a book with a bunch of characters people don’t really want or aren’t interested in, that book isn’t going to last very long. To try and sell the concept of a Batfamily team with fringe members and loose associates would just undermine the very concept of the Batfamily. Enough with the halfway home teams already. Further build on the foundation that made the Batfamily something of worth. Regardless if they might also have a solo. Having a solo shouldn’t be a punishment.
    Even the main Batfamily is in awful shape right now. They can’t keep doing what they have been doing. They can’t keep forgetting about the ones they expect to carry a solo, throwing them to the wayside or undermining them for flavors of the month or characters not going anywhere. Cause all that made for is a bunch of gone nowhere Bat stamped peripheral characters and poorly produced Batfamily satellite books now in the gutter.
    I don't think a wider Batfamily is a bad thing but it's obviously not something DC is willingly to commit to focusing on in any deeper way other than for those who care about those characters, because there are people interested in and who want to read about those characters.

    I don't think the characters people are thinking of are fringe or loose associates of the Family (and honestly helped build the comics Batfamily into being more of what it is today, but that's a whole 'nother thing).

    How could having a solo be seen as a punishment? Just because it means they aren't in a team book where a writer might have less freedom to write them?

    I'm not going to argue with DC derailing and treating Batfamily characters badly, but that's arguably been a problem for a while.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think a wider Batfamily is a bad thing but it's obviously not something DC is willingly to commit to focusing on in any deeper way other than for those who care about those characters, because there are people interested in and who want to read about those characters.

    I don't think the characters people are thinking of are fringe or loose associates of the Family (and honestly helped build the comics Batfamily into being more of what it is today, but that's a whole 'nother thing).

    How could having a solo be seen as a punishment? Just because it means they aren't in a team book where a writer might have less freedom to write them?

    I'm not going to argue with DC derailing and treating Batfamily characters badly, but that's arguably been a problem for a while.
    Its not proving itself to be a good thing. DC have had books with those characters and they don't amount to much. And now even the core Batfamily and their books are struggling. A wider Batfamily has made for a wider focused, while they struggle handle even their more proven characters. The entire Batfamily has fallen into the gutter.

    Most of the characters people are thinking of stood on the backs of iconic legacies. Those roles are what built the Batfamily, and most of the characters people are thinking. Without those role those characters struggle to even function. Unlike their predecessors. While the other characters people think of are just Bat stamped characters. With weak familial connections.

    When a solo becomes a justification for exclusion. Having a solo, having the ability to draw, limiting further exposer opportunities is backwards thinking.

    Ya, they are struggling the handle the Batfamily. Coming up with fresh directions, finding decent creators for them, etc, etc. So this idea that more is better is proving itself to be rather silly. They are struggling with the ones they have. Even their main stays.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 11-10-2020 at 07:47 PM.

  4. #34
    Mighty Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    limiting further exposer opportunities is backwards thinking.
    Yes, so using the characters that lack a solo in a team is a good idea. These characters - they do have a fanbase, but if they never get used their fanbase can't exactly grow.

    Them being in a team doesn't take away from the likes of Nightwing or Batgirl. Batwing and Azrael being in a team book isn't going to cause Nightwing to lose his solo, so I don't see the big issue here, and the whole argument is just hypothetical anyway - since we don't know if there even is going to be a Bat-Family team book or who'd be in it.

  5. #35
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Its not proving itself to be a good thing. DC have had books with those characters and they don't amount to much. And now even the core Batfamily and their books are struggling. A wider Batfamily has made for a wider focused, while they struggle handle even their more proven characters. The entire Batfamily has fallen into the gutter.
    I don't think a wider Batfamily can be blamed for quality issues when I feel like that's more on the writers and editorial than the actual characters.
    Most of the characters people are thinking of stood on the backs of iconic legacies. Those roles are what built the Batfamily, and most of the characters people are thinking. Without those role those characters struggle to even function. Unlike their predecessors. While the other characters people think of are just Bat stamped characters. With weak familial connections.
    And those characters made those legacies their own and helped define the role in their own right. Losing it hurts a lot but a lack of significant writing and spotlight hurts them just as much in my opinion.

    Are we talking Bluebird and Duke with the latter point?
    When a solo becomes a justification for exclusion. Having a solo, having the ability to draw, limiting further exposer opportunities is backwards thinking.
    I think it really just depends on your attitude toward team books. I know a few complained about Jason Aaron's Avengers run using all the "big name" characters who already have their own books and thus are limited in what can actually be done with them in a team book while other classic Avengers are stuck in limbo.

    I'm not saying a character with a solo can't be in a team book, I'm just saying it can be prudent to have characters who don't in a team as well.
    Ya, they are struggling the handle the Batfamily. Coming up with fresh directions, finding decent creators for them, etc, etc. So this idea that more is better is proving itself to be rather silly. They are struggling with the ones they have. Even their main stays.
    I don't see people arguing for more so much as better using the ones they have, and that includes characters like Cass, Steph, Luke, etc.

  6. #36
    Harper Row fan Westbats's Avatar
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    I'm not sure it'll be a true "Batfamily" book (in the vein of Tynion's Detective Comics run) considering that 2021 will include:
    • Joker vs. Bane
    • Queen Ivy
    • Whatever is going on with Punchline
    • Clownhunter
    • Setup for The Magistrate and Peacekeeper One

    It'll probably be an aside book that'll develop one of these storylines.
    I'm currently reading Batman, Detective Comics, DCeased: Dead Planet, Dark Knights: Death Metal, Daredevil, Thor, Nightwing, The Rise of Ultraman and Red Hood and The Outlaws. I'm also trade-waiting the Hickman-era of X-Men comics.

  7. #37
    Incredible Member Light of Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Westbats View Post
    I'm not sure it'll be a true "Batfamily" book (in the vein of Tynion's Detective Comics run) considering that 2021 will include: [LIST]
    Joker vs. Bane
    Logically, it will have to end quickly. But somehow logic always doesn't work when it comes to Joker.
    Quote Originally Posted by Westbats View Post
    Clownhunter
    Maybe he will be new addition on the family.
    Quote Originally Posted by Westbats View Post
    [*]Setup for The Magistrate and Peacekeeper One
    Aberthany said that there's easter egg about Magistrate on Tec 1030, and Tec 1030 was heavily based on Batfamily (minus Tim and Steph, probably they're still barbecue-ing with YJ team).

  8. #38
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    That's kind of the market too, to be honest.
    Yeah, it's not like Titans or Champions do any better than Young Justice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Light of Justice View Post
    Aberthany said that there's easter egg about Magistrate on Tec 1030, and Tec 1030 was heavily based on Batfamily (minus Tim and Steph, probably they're still barbecue-ing with YJ team).
    Yeah, they're presumably at Happy Harbor and not in Gotham.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    Yes, so using the characters that lack a solo in a team is a good idea. These characters - they do have a fanbase, but if they never get used their fanbase can't exactly grow.

    Them being in a team doesn't take away from the likes of Nightwing or Batgirl. Batwing and Azrael being in a team book isn't going to cause Nightwing to lose his solo, so I don't see the big issue here, and the whole argument is just hypothetical anyway - since we don't know if there even is going to be a Bat-Family team book or who'd be in it.
    How much of a fan base do they really have though. They have characters that have a proven fanbase that they are currently trying to market books with vs characters who’s fanbase is in question and they don’t have anything they are trying to market. But somehow when it comes to teams it’s the latter they should use as their foundation. This is part of why pretty much every DC team not the Justice League is DOA.

    It does though, especially when the team concept leans on the idea of the Batfamily. They are selling the idea of the Batfamily with out them. What does that they say about them. All of a sudden the like of Nightwing and Batgirl stop being considered as pillars and get dealt scraps and sub par creators, as they come up with last minute directions for them. Lost in this bloated Batfamily they are trying to manage. As they all step on each other toes.

    You guys act like having a solo protects them somehow. But when they don’t properly maintain those solos creatively, and actually limit their exposer because of them, it can actually do more harm then good. Look at Batman and Robin Eternal. They got so focused on Harper and Cass, who went on to do nothing, they undermined Robin, Dick, and flat out just ignored Batgirl. The characters they wanted readers to buy a solo with. This is backwards thinking. You can’t ignore and/or undermine characters because they have solo, and then expect readers to take them seriously and buy that solo. In the end they were left two newly introduced characters that were going nowhere, and the rest the Batfamily that just came off looking lesser but were still expected to draw. This bigger Batfamily has just made for a lesser Batfamily. Now the mainstays are even in the gutter due to the Bat offices mismanagement and creative apathy.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 11-11-2020 at 05:08 AM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    How much of a fan base do they really have though. They have characters that have a proven fanbase that they are currently trying to market books with vs characters who’s fanbase is in question and they don’t have anything they are trying to market. But somehow when it comes to teams it’s the latter they should use as their foundation. This is part of why pretty much every DC team not the Justice League is DOA.

    It does though, especially when the team concept leans on the idea of the Batfamily. They are selling the idea of the Batfamily with out them. What does that they say about them. All of a sudden the like of Nightwing and Batgirl stop being considered as pillars and get dealt scraps and sub par creators, as they come up with last minute directions for them. Lost in this bloated Batfamily they are trying to manage. As they all step on each other toes.

    You guys act like having a solo protects them somehow. But when they don’t properly maintain those solos creatively, and actually limit their exposer because of them, it can actually do more harm then good. Look at Batman and Robin Eternal. They got so focused on Harper and Cass, who went on to do nothing, they undermine Robin, Dick, and flat out just ignored Batgirl. The characters they wanted readers to buy a solo with. This is backwards thinking. You can’t ignore and/or undermine characters because they have solo, and then expect readers to takes them seriously and buy that solo. In the end they were left two newly introduced characters that were going nowhere, and the rest the Batfamily that just came off looking lesser but were still expected to draw. This bigger Batfamily has just made for a lesser Batfamily. Now the mainstays are even in the gutter due to the Bat offices mismanagement and creative apathy.
    Well, Batgirl doesn't have a solo anymore (in fact, we don't even know if Red Hood or Nightwing will have a solo after March).

    So, I think it is pretty likely Barbara (at least) will be used in a Bat-family book.

  11. #41
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    The comic industry as a whole is on a decline, not just limited to the comics sales of core Batfam members.

    http://yetanothercomicsblog.blogspot...les-march.html

  12. #42
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    How much of a fan base do they really have though. They have characters that have a proven fanbase that they are currently trying to market books with vs characters who’s fanbase is in question and they don’t have anything they are trying to market. But somehow when it comes to teams it’s the latter they should use as their foundation. This is part of why pretty much every DC team not the Justice League is DOA.
    I don't think their fanbase is as much in question as you think it it is, but they haven't been in the spotlight enough to where it matters.

    I think there is a lot different aspects that should go into building a team. It doesn't even have to be one way or another, necessarily.
    It does though, especially when the team concept leans on the idea of the Batfamily. They are selling the idea of the Batfamily with out them. What does that they say about them. All of a sudden the like of Nightwing and Batgirl stop being considered as pillars and get dealt scraps and sub par creators, as they come up with last minute directions for them. Lost in this bloated Batfamily they are trying to manage. As they all step on each other toes.
    I don't think it means Nightwing and Batgirl stop getting viewed as pillars but that they aren't the entirety of the Batfamily and Barbara Gordon isn't the only Batgirl worth a darn. The quality of their writing and treatment is a completely separate issue in my opinion.
    You guys act like having a solo protects them somehow. But when they don’t properly maintain those solos creatively, and actually limit their exposer because of them, it can actually do more harm then good. Look at Batman and Robin Eternal. They got so focused on Harper and Cass, who went on to do nothing, they undermined Robin, Dick, and flat out just ignored Batgirl. The characters they wanted readers to buy a solo with. This is backwards thinking. You can’t ignore and/or undermine characters because they have solo, and then expect readers to take them seriously and buy that solo. In the end they were left two newly introduced characters that were going nowhere, and the rest the Batfamily that just came off looking lesser but were still expected to draw. This bigger Batfamily has just made for a lesser Batfamily. Now the mainstays are even in the gutter due to the Bat offices mismanagement and creative apathy.
    Again, I'm not asking to ignore or undermine characters with solo's. I don't think anyone is really advocating for that. But that doesn't mean shunning characters who don't have books.

  13. #43
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    Young Justice, Outsiders, etc. Where are these characters fan bases? There is a reason fans want them back in the popular roles.
    And teams as halfway homes for wayward characters haven’t been working for DC. Especially in this market. How many more team concepts do we need to see get buried by that.

    Selling a Batfamily book without them, is selling the idea of the Batfamily without them. You can ignore the would be implications of that if you want, but that’s what selling a Batfamily team book without them would be. DC can’t ignore implications outside of these characters solo and just continue to take for granted the effect that has on a characters general marketability.
    And it’s not a separate issue. Their focus is now so wide and split that characters are falling to the wayside and go unprotected. These solo’s have become a place to isolate and ignore. A venue where the Bat office can do the bear minimum and still say they are doing something with those characters, while they really focused on Batman and pushing whatever flavor of the month.

    But you are. Again your ignoring the general implications of leaving them out. Using the excuse of well they have solo to justify it. The characters who have solos have to maintain readers on those books. They don’t get any help from creator names, DC doesn’t afford them that, and things like leaving them out of concepts they originated, feeding them to the others, and creator apathy in general hurts and undermines their ability to do that.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 11-11-2020 at 02:48 PM.

  14. #44
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Young Justice, Outsiders, etc. Where are these characters fan bases? There is a reason fans want them back in the popular roles. These teams as halfway homes for wayward characters haven’t working for DC. Especially in this market. How many more team concepts do we need to see get buried by that.
    I think there were a lot of issues going on with those books beyond the cast that was in them, but I don't view these books as halfway homes.
    Selling a Batfamily book without them, is selling the idea of the Batfamily without them. You can ignore the would be implications of that if you want, but that’s what selling a Batfamily team book without them would be. DC can’t ignore implications outside of these characters solo and just continue to take for granted the effect that has on a characters general marketability.
    If it's selling any idea, it's that they aren't the only Batfamily characters and aren't the only ones that matter. And they do matter, and should be written/treated better, but I feel that's a wholly separate issue. I think these characters are entrenched enough that just not being in a team comic wouldn't damage their standing within the family. But that's just my opinion.

    I think Tynion's 'Tec team should've played more with the established Batfamily members but we didn't need them to be part of the group.
    And it’s not a separate issue. Their focus is now so wide and split that characters are falling to the wayside and go unprotected. These solo’s have become a place to isolate and ignore. A venue where the Bat office can do the bear minimum and still say they are doing something with those characters, while they really focused on Batman and pushing whatever flavor of the month.
    I don't think it's an issue of focus, it's an issue of a lack of care.
    But you are. Again your ignoring the general implications of leaving them out. Using the excuse of well they have solo to justify it. The characters who have solos have to maintain readers on those books. They don’t get any help from creator names, DC doesn’t afford them that, and things like leaving them out of concepts they originated, feeding them to the others, and creator apathy in general hurts and undermines their ability to do that.
    That's true for every character in a solo title who isn't an A++ character, and I don't think most fans would get that implication just from them not being in the book if the book wasn't designed for them to be in it. A Batfamily team book isn't necessarily the be-all, end-all, of the Batfamily.

  15. #45
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    My second point wasn’t necessarily about those book specifically, I should have structured that better.

    How do they matter when they are left out of things that matter. So it’s not a separate issue. They can’t keep taking them for granted and think that doesn’t hurt them or isn’t going to catch up. That’s illogical.

    Semantics.

    That’s naive. They originated the concept of the Batfamily, but you don’t think audiences would pick the implications of designing a Batfamily team with out them. What exactly are they then if they aren’t even worthy of being on a Batfamily team.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 11-11-2020 at 03:03 PM.

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