Unpopular opinion: Hickman's X-Men is going downhill

[Killerbee911]

I agree when it comes to discussion on the "quality" of work but I highly disagree about offensive content. I don't care where and when Rowling articulated her rhetorical violence. She should be canceled as cultural producer and "public voice". Call her out everywhere till she is silenced. Her opinion as a filthy rich powerful person received so much more attention than some internet comments on twitter.

Yeah that is harassment, It might be harassment for a good cause but it is still harassment. And honestly you can do the same thing but actually directly at decision makers and not harass herself. Honestly I think we are talking about two different things because I love internet culture ability to "cancel" aka put pressure with bad pr and threat of taking away your money from their products. What I am talking about we have access to creators in away we didn't have in past and people just show up to tell them they didn't like something. I was talking about more about direct regular interactions with creators not Hickman talking about BLM on twitter and opening himself for a criticism on a opinion he didn't need to give on the subject.

The other day on twitter I was interacting with Kurt Busiek we were talking about mutants metaphor making sense today, He opened himself up with opinion and I responded, It was decent back and forth convo. My general point was/is you don't need to give unsolicited critiques to creators. It is different story if they are opening up themselves for discussion on the topics.

PS- I don't feel sorry for JK, She keeps opening herself up for it.

[Exodus]

Yeah that is harassment, It might be harassment for a good cause but it is still harassment. And honestly you can do the same thing but actually directly at decision makers and not harass herself. Honestly I think we are talking about two different things because I love internet culture ability to "cancel" aka put pressure with bad pr and threat of taking away your money from their products. What I am talking about we have access to creators in away we didn't have in past and people just show up to tell them they didn't like something. I was talking about more about direct regular interactions with creators not Hickman talking about BLM on twitter and opening himself for a criticism on a opinion he didn't need to give on the subject.

The other day on twitter I was interacting with Kurt Busiek we were talking about mutants metaphor making sense today, He opened himself up with opinion and I responded, It was decent back and forth convo. My general point was/is you don't need to give unsolicited critiques to creators. It is different story if they are opening up themselves for discussion on the topics.

PS- I don't feel sorry for JK, She keeps opening herself up for it.

I agree, you are right. sure. I just think we sometimes need strongly stated counter-opinions for problematic discourses. I'm not sure if "harassment" is always the category defining these online articulations. sometimes it is just honest (and valid) anger.

[Devaishwarya]

I will just point that the anonymity of internet makes people say things they would never say in real life. Creators don't need constructive criticism from fans. You don't like a creator speak with your wallet, You don't like what creator is saying remove them from your social media. You want to complain about creator is saying or doing to talk to their higher ups not to creator(the creator isn't going to fire themselves). If the creator opens up themselves to talk about something then yeah give your opinion.

Nobody needs a unsolicited critique, Especially on the internet were they express that critique in the worse possible way in most cases. And 90% of the time it won't be how the person would express it in real life to the same person. People don't reflect what there actions actually are imagine if you are in line comic con and every 5th person a line is screaming out what they don't like at a creator. It could be 100% percent correct and accurate but that would be harassment.

The fact that this is not understood by some fans, is the reason why creators resort to using block bots...and rightly so.

[Zelena]

I agree, you are right. sure. I just think we sometimes need strongly stated counter-opinions for problematic discourses. I'm not sure if "harassment" is always the category defining these online articulations. sometimes it is just honest (and valid) anger.

I think it’s the problem of social networks: in a traditional media, to a controversial opinion would answer another opinion to counterbalance the first one and journalists would put these opinions in perspective with facts and expertise.

Now, with these direct exchanges, when someone hears something he doesn’t like, he champions himself of what he considers as a misstep. He represents the moral because there’s no one but him to represent it. And feels confident in his reaction.

[Kingdom X]

Harassment is different than criticism, I believe. People were calling for Hickman's head, saying he should be immediately fired and never deserved his spot as X-Men writer because he didn't post what they wanted on Twitter during the protests related to George Floyd's death. Not to mention the name calling, which continued until recently among Brazilian fans of Jean Grey, mostly. I guess he was getting the same thing on his DMs if it was ever open. It was never about his writing of the books, it was people going over the edge on harassment.

That situation was so strange to me... I personally hate performative activism so what did people think was gonna happen if they FORCED him to say something. Also it’s not like his platform is on a celebrities level.

[Steel Inquisitor]

In online culture, what counts as criticism and what counts as harassment is often dictated by whether one likes or doesn’t like what’s being said, and whether they like or don’t like who or what it’s being said about. Validity and fair consideration tend to mean nothing.

And it goes all ways. Not just one.

All I really wanna say on that mark. Continue on.

What dictates harassment is the same as anywhere, it being online changes nothing. Words have distinct meanings, people have been hurt incredibly by cyber bullying, even on this site with Janelle Asselin - got so bad the whole forum was deleted.

https://www.salon.com/2014/05/16/let...site_comments/

People who harass others are of course going to make themselves look good that's why they shouldn't get a word in defining what they're doing - their interest is about protecting themselves from reprisals and silencing opposition. Constructive criticism is there, but not with people who harass others. They don't get to redefine what words mean to justify their attacks.

[Viteh]

Remender is the perfect example, he was viciously attacked for the Alex speech but then the same attackers was offended when he said to go drown in hobo piss. He should be above such things they say, how dare he attack us back they say.

He did Hobo Piss because people were telling him his take was bad, they were hardly attacking him. His tweets pretty much says that. It's not "You should all drown in hobo piss", it's "If what I wrote upset you, drown in hobo piss". That's not a response to attacks, it's to criticism. After Hobo Piss then yeah, then I would say a lot of people attacked him.

[Exodus]

He did Hobo Piss because people were telling him his take was bad, they were hardly attacking him. His tweets pretty much says that. It's not "You should all drown in hobo piss", it's "If what I wrote upset you, drown in hobo piss". That's not a response to attacks, it's to criticism. After Hobo Piss then yeah, then I would say a lot of people attacked him.

I also remember it like this.

Many different people articulating their opinions and criticism in very different ways. I find it difficult to speak about those fan interactions in generalizing terms. A lot of the criticism writers are receiving is also valid, really not all of it is harassment, and sometimes I think a shitstorm is a very adequate reaction to a perceived problem...I often find the over-the-top defensiveness in many reactions of those—often white male cis—writers quite telling. It is like a fixed pattern: Speak about gender and sexism with male writers and defensiveness will be the go-to-reaction for most. It's like clockwork.

[Stormultt Divine]

Disagree and a bit confused...
Nothing before DoX/HoX etc in the x-verse was worth glancing at.

I'm enjoying whats been done and curious to whats to come, its refreshing.

[pkingdom]

I hadn't realized Hickman had deleted his social media. What did he say or not say about the protests? I've never heard of that before. When I don't like a work by a creator I make a point to not follow them just to even eliminate even the temptation to get snarky with them, since its a pretty dick thing to do with them directly.

I've been the designated curmudgeon for this entire relaunch. I've thought it was bad since HoXPoX, and only gotten worse in DoX. I have always been in the minority in that opinion and I realize that. HoXPoX was a tonal mess and one of the most cynical comics I've ever read, and its scorched earth approach to continuity and characterization always felt like a terrible approach to a relaunch. It doubled down on all the worst aspects of the X books; like exponentially increasing the cast while making the straight white people the only ones who mattered; alienating the X men even further from the rest of the Marvel world; trying to tell a massive sci-fi/political/racial story while relying on lots of 'don't think about it too hard' excuses for its storytelling; etc.

Right now almost everything feels like inconsequential filler until they get back to Moira. Having Krakoa almost immediately cause genocide was a huge mistake, because every book is so tied in to working for the betterment of Krakoa means I can't just ignore the whole thing. I can't care about what SWORD is going to do for Krakoa because they're still working on behalf of a nation that casually commits genocide. But that's just me and a lot of people can read the stories without worrying about that.

Its dead horse at this point. But I will also say that I don't understand when people talk about all of this being new and exciting, or a breathe of fresh air. These stories still feel like the old ones to me. Almost every idea has been done before, and usually without the characterization problems. Hell, some of them would work better before Krakoa. Marauders would have been much better if they weren't acting on behalf of a government.

[Gigantor]

Yeah that is harassment, It might be harassment for a good cause but it is still harassment. And honestly you can do the same thing but actually directly at decision makers and not harass herself. Honestly I think we are talking about two different things because I love internet culture ability to "cancel" aka put pressure with bad pr and threat of taking away your money from their products. What I am talking about we have access to creators in away we didn't have in past and people just show up to tell them they didn't like something. I was talking about more about direct regular interactions with creators not Hickman talking about BLM on twitter and opening himself for a criticism on a opinion he didn't need to give on the subject.

The other day on twitter I was interacting with Kurt Busiek we were talking about mutants metaphor making sense today, He opened himself up with opinion and I responded, It was decent back and forth convo. My general point was/is you don't need to give unsolicited critiques to creators. It is different story if they are opening up themselves for discussion on the topics.

PS- I don't feel sorry for JK, She keeps opening herself up for it.

I don’t think people really appreciate what JK is trying to do. We just see her saying anti trans tweets and just assume that’s all there is to it but it’s actually a lot more sinister. I don’t know how many British readers are here but it’s important to understand that in England JK despite her wealth and popularity is considered a low class woman and not respected by the British elite. This is her sending signals to those people as believe or not the debate trans rights is a very hostile issue in the England and much of the upper class leadership of the Tory and Labor parties do not support trans rights. This is JK trying to pivot into a more serious role as a political commentator and possibly a lobbyist. This not to say she is lying about her views. She is not, but it’s important to understand while we think she is losing money or support from saying these the opposite is actually true

[Agent Z]

I'm pretty sure like 99% of that is because Claremont ignored them during the key era of the X-Men, and nobody has any foundation to go off of.*

Like the only reason Scott and Jean are still a big deal and people consider them essential is because he did stuff like DPS with them

*Except poor Lorna going crazy lol

Is that really Claremont's fault? He can only write characters he was actually interested in and can't be blamed if later writers couldn't come up with anything interesting for them other than becoming evil or going mad*. Making him write characters he had no affinity for would not have produced good reults.

* Also, the X-franchise is almost as bad as Batman when it comes to handling mental illness.

[Zelena]

I don’t think people really appreciate what JK is trying to do. We just see her saying anti trans tweets and just assume that’s all there is to it but it’s actually a lot more sinister. I don’t know how many British readers are here but it’s important to understand that in England JK despite her wealth and popularity is considered a low class woman and not respected by the British elite. This is her sending signals to those people as believe or not the debate trans rights is a very hostile issue in the England and much of the upper class leadership of the Tory and Labor parties do not support trans rights. This is JK trying to pivot into a more serious role as a political commentator and possibly a lobbyist. This not to say she is lying about her views. She is not, but it’s important to understand while we think she is losing money or support from saying these the opposite is actually true

I saw a documentary once about JK in search of her origins. She made the impression of someone who speaks first and thinks later. So, thinking of her as someone who has an agenda… Yes, she could be manipulated, though.

[Zelena]

I hadn't realized Hickman had deleted his social media. What did he say or not say about the protests? I've never heard of that before. When I don't like a work by a creator I make a point to not follow them just to even eliminate even the temptation to get snarky with them, since its a pretty dick thing to do with them directly.

I've been the designated curmudgeon for this entire relaunch. I've thought it was bad since HoXPoX, and only gotten worse in DoX. I have always been in the minority in that opinion and I realize that. HoXPoX was a tonal mess and one of the most cynical comics I've ever read, and its scorched earth approach to continuity and characterization always felt like a terrible approach to a relaunch. It doubled down on all the worst aspects of the X books; like exponentially increasing the cast while making the straight white people the only ones who mattered; alienating the X men even further from the rest of the Marvel world; trying to tell a massive sci-fi/political/racial story while relying on lots of 'don't think about it too hard' excuses for its storytelling; etc.

Right now almost everything feels like inconsequential filler until they get back to Moira. Having Krakoa almost immediately cause genocide was a huge mistake, because every book is so tied in to working for the betterment of Krakoa means I can't just ignore the whole thing. I can't care about what SWORD is going to do for Krakoa because they're still working on behalf of a nation that casually commits genocide. But that's just me and a lot of people can read the stories without worrying about that.

Its dead horse at this point. But I will also say that I don't understand when people talk about all of this being new and exciting, or a breathe of fresh air. These stories still feel like the old ones to me. Almost every idea has been done before, and usually without the characterization problems. Hell, some of them would work better before Krakoa. Marauders would have been much better if they weren't acting on behalf of a government.

I do think the real problem is the characterization. Yes, a lot of stories have been already told but it’s inescapable: the X-men saga is long.
But that the characters don’t feel like the persons I knew, it rubs me the wrong way.
In his proposition, Hickman made the choice of discarding the continuity, but the continuity is X-men’s identity.

[Gigantor]

I saw a documentary once about JK in search of her origins. She made the impression of someone who speaks first and thinks later. So, thinking of her as someone who has an agenda… Yes, she could be manipulated, though.

There are several biographies about JK and one of the clearest things that comes across in all of them is her extreme desire to be part of the aristocracy. She has an agenda, everyone has an agenda. I do believe she has great dislike of trans and I also believe that she is using that option to help gain more “legitimate” fame in England which is really the only thing she cares about.