Unpopular opinion: Hickman's X-Men is going downhill

[Tofali]

Hickman run feels like a pretentious prestige tv

pretentious and boring lol that is how i felt about his Avengers run i used to escape that book and get my enjoyment from his New Avengers with the Illuminati. I would have loved a separate book that had the members of the quiet council in the same vein as the Illuminati

[baxer]

What does that mean? Like what kind of Tv show are you comparing it to?

Aesthetically beautiful but poor on story like a ryan murphy tv show

[SiegePerilous02]

It can’t compare with Chris Claremont’s initial run because the talent isn’t comparable. The emphasis has been put on worldbuilding but some authors are able to be both great in worldbuilding and character relationships. In actions and emotions.

The density isn’t there too. The way to tell stories is quite different now with less panels per page. A quality has been lost. A sense of rythm that belonged even to B-comics… Even when I was mildly interested by reading a comic in the past, it was at least entertaining.

Claremont had pretty terrible arcs, like everyone. And a lot of his worldbuilding was things like Nova Roma or just plagiarizing what was in fashion, like Aliens or Teen Titans.

I don't think any X-writer is going to compare completely favorably to Claremont's original X-run on similar merits, not even Claremont himself. it's also pretty impossible to achieve the same character depth and long form writing he had considering the way comics are written has greatly changed. I love his run, but the writing style is pretty dated even compared to stuff that was coming out around the same time (though he is also better that some of his peers at the time as well). He was also at his best when the number of books was smaller, and therefore the cast was smaller. The X-Men have been franchised to the point of becoming a massive, unwieldy mess of a cast that isn't going to adequately have "screen time" shared. The book(s) haven't had a streamlined, intimate cast like the ANAD X-Men in quite some time, and it's never going to be that again.

Focusing on the plot heavy and high concept stuff, including new characters, is fine with me.

[Wolverine12]

Aesthetically beautiful but poor on story like a ryan murphy tv show

That is actually a really good description. Fair enough.

Edit: American Horror Story and Scream Queens were both amazing though.

[Mike]

I'm curious to know if I'm the only one here.

I have no opinion myself.
I tried about six issues of Hickman's FF and gave up.
I tried even less of his Avengers.
So I didn't even give his X-Men a try.
His writing just doesn't work for me.

[Glio]

I don't think any X-writer is going to compare completely favorably to Claremont's original X-run on similar merits, not even Claremont himself. it's also pretty impossible to achieve the same character depth and long form writing he had considering the way comics are written has greatly changed. I love his run, but the writing style is pretty dated even compared to stuff that was coming out around the same time (though he is also better that some of his peers at the time as well). He was also at his best when the number of books was smaller, and therefore the cast was smaller. The X-Men have been franchised to the point of becoming a massive, unwieldy mess of a cast that isn't going to adequately have "screen time" shared. The book(s) haven't had a streamlined, intimate cast like the ANAD X-Men in quite some time, and it's never going to be that again.

Focusing on the plot heavy and high concept stuff, including new characters, is fine with me.

You're right. It's impossible because there are too many characters and too much canon already. You can't write anything without a lot of nerds coming to complain. For example, there are people angry that Doug and Betsy are not interacting with each other in Sword of X. When was the last time they were together? Forty years ago?

Writing X-Men must be the most ungrateful thing in the world of comics because there are infinite characters with infinite interactions between them and some people will just want to see their favorite character and if it is not in the comic, the comic is crap.

[Wolverine12]

I'm curious to know if I'm the only one here.

I have no opinion myself.
I tried about six issues of Hickman's FF and gave up.
I tried even less of his Avengers.
So I didn't even give his X-Men a try.
His writing just doesn't work for me.

What’s your question? If you didn’t like his other Marvel work I’d say it’s a safe bet you wouldn’t like this either if that’s what you’re asking. It is definitely a Hickman book done in his signature style.

[SiegePerilous02]

You're right. It's impossible because there are too many characters and too much canon already. You can't write anything without a lot of nerds coming to complain. For example, there are people angry that Doug and Betsy are not interacting with each other in Sword of X. When was the last time they were together? Forty years ago?

Writing X-Men must be the most ungrateful thing in the world of comics because there are infinite characters with infinite interactions between them and some people will just want to see their favorite character and if it is not in the comic, the comic is crap.

Even their interaction forty years ago was pretty weird. I can't say it was one of Claremont's best ideas.

[Glio]

Even their interaction forty years ago was pretty weird. I can't say it was one of Claremont's best ideas.

It was just an example, what I mean is that if you had to reference all the past that all the characters have with everyone, you would not do anything else. Claremont worked because they were characters that did not know each other before and had the classic "found family" narrative. You can't do that again with the same characters. It is impossible.

What's left to do? Exploring interactions that have never occurred to anyone? "Let's see how Forge and Archangel get along." Because God knows I don't want another "Wolverine and Cyclops get mad" or "Gambit and Rogue suffer because they can't have sex" plot.

Partly for that reason and for other reasons, Claremont declined so brutally in quality in its later years. New ideas were needed, such as Morrison's New X-men or now Hickman. The perfect example of how Claremont's style was completely worn out was X-Men Gold. It was the same old ideas with the same old characters trying things that didn't go anywhere "Hey, let's get Rachel and Nightcrawler together, dunno. And now the school is Central Park, that's fun"

[SiegePerilous02]

It was just an example, what I mean is that if you had to reference all the past that all the characters have with everyone, you would not do anything else. Claremont worked because they were characters that did not know each other before and had the classic "found family" narrative. You can't do that again with the same characters. It is impossible.

What's left to do? Exploring interactions that have never occurred to anyone? "Let's see how Forge and Archangel get along." Because God knows I don't want another "Wolverine and Cyclops get mad" or "Gambit and Rogue suffer because they can't have sex" plot.

Partly for that reason and for other reasons, Claremont declined so brutally in quality in its later years. New ideas were needed, such as Morrison's New X-men or now Hickman. The perfect example of how Claremont's style was completely worn out was X-Men Gold. It was the same old ideas with the same old characters trying things that didn't go anywhere "Hey, let's get Rachel and Nightcrawler together, dunno. And now the school is Central Park, that's fun"

Yeah I definitely agree with what you are saying. I wish Claremont's original plans that were going into the 90s (Shadow King saga, etc). had played out, but I'm not sure how much longer he should have stayed beyond that.

Sidebar, but there is also the fact that his "evolving the narrative and the cast" thing seems to be a bit overblown as well. He had planned to write out Scott and Jean respectfully, pretty much ignored the rest of the O5, but never seemed to want to let go of the ANAD cast. Even when Kitty, Kurt and Rachel were written out of the main book, he kept them in Excalibur. And it seems like he keeps returning to the same pool of characters whenever he comes back, and his new OC's are just never as memorable as the ones he came up with back in the day.

[Glio]

Yeah I definitely agree with what you are saying. I wish Claremont's original plans that were going into the 90s (Shadow King saga, etc). had played out, but I'm not sure how much longer he should have stayed beyond that.

Sidebar, but there is also the fact that his "evolving the narrative and the cast" thing seems to be a bit overblown as well. He had planned to write out Scott and Jean respectfully, pretty much ignored the rest of the O5, but never seemed to want to let go of the ANAD cast. Even when Kitty, Kurt and Rachel were written out of the main book, he kept them in Excalibur. And it seems like he keeps returning to the same pool of characters whenever he comes back, and his new OC's are just never as memorable as the ones he came up with back in the day.

If Claremont were writing right now the forums would be something like "Does Claremont even want to write the X-Men? I don't care about his OC's. Who the **** is Colossus, where is Polaris. Is Magneto a good guy now? Terrible writing, I don't care about his backstory".

The accusation that Hickman writes new characters or write to the old with different voices as if that is a bad thing is something that seems incomprehensible to me.

[MYCMTSC]

House of X / Powers of X was the perfect superhero/sci-fi story.

His New Mutants run was a fun space romp.

His X-Men series is very hit-or-miss and that's partially because it feels like a series of one-shots and miniseries and in-between brilliant issues we get Hordeculture. I think being so collaborative is hurting a still-strong line of books - I think he could juggle more and frankly I think he should. For a flagship it is neither focused nor big enough.

At the very least I think X-Force and New Mutants should be folded into Hickman's title where he can write the intelligence + the Sextant on a rotating basis. The flagship should cover island society IMHO. The other titles (Marauders, X-Factor, Hellions, Excalibur, SWORD) all center around topics disconnected enough from the main narrative.

[Glio]

House of X / Powers of X was the perfect superhero/sci-fi story.

His New Mutants run was a fun space romp.

His X-Men series is very hit-or-miss and that's partially because it feels like a series of one-shots and miniseries and in-between brilliant issues we get Hordeculture. I think being so collaborative is hurting a still-strong line of books - I think he could juggle more and frankly I think he should. His anthology series should be able to touch on more characters and agencies already called for.

At the very least I think X-Force and New Mutants should be folded into Hickman's title where he can write the intelligence + the Sextant on a rotating basis. The flagship should cover island society IMHO. The other titles (Marauders, X-Factor, Hellions, Excalibur, SWORD) all center around topics disconnected enough from the main narrative.

I would like to know what his editorial role is as "Head of X", being listed in all the comics of the mutant line.

If he really has to oversee all of others' comics other than writing his own, that might explain why he can't run two regular series at once and has been rotating (New Mutants> Giant Size> X of Swords)

[Kingdom X]

I'm curious to know if I'm the only one here.

I have no opinion myself.
I tried about six issues of Hickman's FF and gave up.
I tried even less of his Avengers.
So I didn't even give his X-Men a try.
His writing just doesn't work for me.

I wish more people would just say this instead of jumping through hoops to convince others this era is terrible. Hickman has a pretty distinct approach that has pros and cons, so it’s not gonna please everyone (and that’s okay). Even though I haven’t been blown away by the main X-Men book I can at least be glad that someone is putting some energy into telling a story with these characters instead of retreading old story beats over and over again.

[Zelena]

I don't think any X-writer is going to compare completely favorably to Claremont's original X-run on similar merits, not even Claremont himself. it's also pretty impossible to achieve the same character depth and long form writing he had considering the way comics are written has greatly changed. I love his run, but the writing style is pretty dated even compared to stuff that was coming out around the same time (though he is also better that some of his peers at the time as well). He was also at his best when the number of books was smaller, and therefore the cast was smaller. The X-Men have been franchised to the point of becoming a massive, unwieldy mess of a cast that isn't going to adequately have "screen time" shared. The book(s) haven't had a streamlined, intimate cast like the ANAD X-Men in quite some time, and it's never going to be that again.

There’s also something else that explains Chris Claremont’s initial run is so loved, worldwide: he had no favourite character. Each of the X-men has been brought to the front of the stage at least once and none of them has ever felt superfluous. It provided a solid foundation.

For the criticisms, well… “he who has had a beautiful dream does not regret having slept”… it can be analyzed but either it brings you pleasure reading a comic or it doesn’t. Despite his defaults, his fetishes, his repetitions (and his heavy bubbles, and his soapish tendancies)… I still love Chris Claremont’s initial run and I don’t like Hickman’s run.

I’m fine with the fact it will never be the same: people, situations are never the same: a page has been turned. There isn’t such as starting anew in life. It isn’t comic.