View Poll Results: What is your ideal number for the Bat Family?

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  • Just Batman - no sidekicks

    5 4.07%
  • + 1 (Robin)

    4 3.25%
  • +1-2 (Robin & Batgirl)

    10 8.13%
  • +1-3 (Nightwing, Batgirl & Robin)

    21 17.07%
  • +1-5 (Nightwing, Oracle, Robin, Huntress & Batgirl?)

    15 12.20%
  • +1-7 (Nightwing, Oracle, Robin, Huntress, Batgirl, Red Hood & Batwoman?)

    5 4.07%
  • +1-9 (Nightwing, Oracle, Robin, Huntress, Batgirl, Red Hood, Batwoman, Red Robin & Black Bat?)

    20 16.26%
  • +1-19 (Nightwing, Oracle, Robin, Huntress, Batgirl, Red Hood, Batwoman, Red Robin & Incorporated)

    9 7.32%
  • +1-99 (Nightwing, Oracle, Robin, Huntress, Man-Bat, Bat-Cow & every other Bat Family ever created)

    34 27.64%
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  1. #16
    Is The Best Monk The Red Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidstandout View Post
    didn't know i was talking to the rep for the entire fanbase.
    It doesn't take a genius to notice that all over the net, from Comic Vine to Super Hero Hype to Comic Alliance to here, the reaction either alternates from "MORE Bat characters? Why?" to "Well, I suppose I'll see what they have to offer.", not "Boy, do I wish that DC would give us EVEN MORE generic vigilantes in Gotham City!". From that, it's logical to infer that next to no-one is actually asking for these characters.
    "If you're afraid - don't do it - and if you're doing it - don't be afraid!" - Genghis Khan

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Red Monk View Post
    DC "needs" no such thing. They already have the Marvel family, and the Superman family, both of which are more "families" than the Bat-Family. If DC wants to capitalize on that, use them. Heck, the Marvel family could use some love. There's also a difference between a superhero "family" and a bunch of redundant vigilantes all tied to Batman at the hip. Half of them have absolutely no reason to exist, and no compelling relationship to Batman.
    No amount of love from writers and editors is gonna make Shazam and his supporting cast as successful a francise as Batman. And I really don't think Superman, Powergirl, Superboy and Supergirl ever formed more of a family then Batman, Alfred, the Robins and the Batgirls.

    Bat-God is Batman punking out the entire Justice League without any preparation beforehand by making them all into idiots. Bat-God is not what you describe above. Those are all simple staples of superhero comics, and if you take issue with them, that might be a sign that you need to quit comics.
    Spider-Man, Daredevil and all hundreds of New York based Marvel heros have been able to share for decades now. Superman and Flash and the lot have superspeed. One man in a batsuit being able to patrol an entire city every night really isn't as essential a trope as you suggest.

    Story-wise, having 25+ vigilantes in one goddamn city simply takes away from each of them, especially if more than half of them have absolutely nothing compelling about their characters, except sucking off other, more superior characters.

    Did anyone ask for Bluebird? Carrie Kelly? Talon? Batwing? Helena Wayne? Hawkfire? Lark? Julie Pennyworth? ANOTHER Robin? Hell, half of the Batman fanbase has been clamoring for Tim Drake to get offed already, since he's just taking up space at this point.

    NO-ONE has been asking for these new or past characters. They just get shoved onto us, because the Bat-Writers don't know when to stop, and the Bat-Editors won't do their damn jobs, and put their foot down on this shit.
    I agree it's too much but writers are just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks to try and diversity their cast. Blame the creators that made Bruce, Dick, Jason, Alfred, Damian and Tim all blue eyed, black haired, white males.

  3. #18
    Is The Best Monk The Red Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    No amount of love from writers and editors is gonna make Shazam and his supporting cast as successful a francise as Batman. And I really don't think Superman, Powergirl, Superboy and Supergirl ever formed more of a family then Batman, Alfred, the Robins and the Batgirls.

    Spider-Man, Daredevil and all hundreds of New York based Marvel heros have been able to share for decades now. Superman and Flash and the lot have superspeed. One man in a batsuit being able to patrol an entire city every night really isn't as essential a trope as you suggest.

    I agree it's too much but writers are just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks to try and diversity their cast. Blame the creators that made Bruce, Dick, Jason, Alfred, Damian and Tim all blue eyed, black haired, white males.
    1) I wasn't talking in terms of popularity. Yes, Captain Marvel/Shazam/Billy Batson and his family are not as popular (unfortunately). That does not mean DC should use the Batman franchise for experiments that are better suited to the Marvel family. And at least the Superman family are related, more or less (Supergirl and Power Girl, both Superman's cousins, Superboy, Superman's clone).

    2) I wasn't talking about Batman patrolling the city by himself, dude, I was talking about Batman being rich, handsome, skilled, smart and so on. These are all pretty much staples of superhero comics, with superheroes being stronger, smarter, richer and sexier than you since their inception.

    3) I won't blame them, because it would be stupid. Diversity is not a valid excuse for over-bloating the cast with even more redundant teenage crime-fighters, none of whom are remotely interesting in the slightest. You want to diversify, try expanding Batman's civilian supporting cast. He has far too many crime-fighting supporting cast, and not nearly enough civilian supporting cast.
    "If you're afraid - don't do it - and if you're doing it - don't be afraid!" - Genghis Khan

  4. #19
    pygophile and podophile Dr. Cheesesteak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Red Monk View Post
    DC "needs" no such thing. They already have the Marvel family, and the Superman family, both of which are more "families" than the Bat-Family. If DC wants to capitalize on that, use them. Heck, the Marvel family could use some love. There's also a difference between a superhero "family" and a bunch of redundant vigilantes all tied to Batman at the hip. Half of them have absolutely no reason to exist, and no compelling relationship to Batman.
    Yeah, how's that Captain Marvel title doing? And Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen's different solo books? I think your mistaking the meaning of a comic "family" for a more literal one. Think family of titles/concepts/characters, not an actual relational family... I mean, do I really need to explain this?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Red Monk View Post
    Bat-God is Batman punking out the entire Justice League without any preparation beforehand by making them all into idiots. Bat-God is not what you describe above. Those are all simple staples of superhero comics, and if you take issue with them, that might be a sign that you need to quit comics. Story-wise, having 25+ vigilantes in one goddamn city simply takes away from each of them, especially if more than half of them have absolutely nothing compelling about their characters, except sucking off other, more superior characters.
    ...

    Your austerity and apparent resentment towards comics and makes me think you should quit comics. But hey, we all "enjoy" comics differently, right?

    Also, all of what i mentioned still applies to Batgodhood.
    Last edited by Dr. Cheesesteak; 08-18-2014 at 12:53 AM.
    Comics were definitely happier, breezier and more confident in their own strengths before Hollywood and the Internet turned the business of writing superhero stories into the production of low budget storyboards or, worse, into conformist, fruitless attempts to impress or entertain a small group of people who appear to hate comics and their creators. -- Grant Morrison, 2008

    Sometimes things are special because they don't last. -- Zhi, Tales from the Loop

  5. #20
    Is The Best Monk The Red Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cheesesteak View Post
    Yeah, how's that Captain Marvel title doing? And Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen's different solo books? I think your mistaking the meaning of a comic "family" for a more literal one. Think family of titles/concepts/characters, not an actual relational family... I mean, do I really need to explain this?

    ...

    Your austerity and apparent resentment towards comics and makes me think you should quit comics. But hey, we all "enjoy" comics differently, right?

    Also, all of what i mentioned still applies to Batgodhood.
    1) Well, the way you phrased it certainly comes of as partially ambiguous in its intention:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cheesesteak View Post
    I was going to say that, but as a good thing... DC needs a strong "family" in its mythos. Something to tie various characters together, besides just being members of the Justice League. Street level comics have their following. Batman is huge, currently. Makes sense to expand on both together.
    Either that, or my Asperger's Quotient is higher than I thought. That being said, my point still stands. There's no need to bloat the Bat-Family to ridiculous levels. They are good as they already were. Give some new characters to Superman or Wonder Woman. And as unfortunate as it may be that Captain Marvel is beset by bad luck in the sales department, I hold firm to the hope that his franchise may yet find salvation.

    2) Austerity and resentment? Why, my good man, I am as jolly a comic fan as you will ever find! But I daresay if one is unable to enjoy such staples of superhero comics as super-rich, hyper-competent, more alluring than Adonis and Aphrodite and more intelligent than Thoth, instead blaming them on that elusive concept of the legendary Bat-God, that might be a sure sign that one is over-thinking superhero comics to an unhealthy degree, and might be better off saying a tearful goodbye.
    "If you're afraid - don't do it - and if you're doing it - don't be afraid!" - Genghis Khan

  6. #21
    pygophile and podophile Dr. Cheesesteak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Red Monk View Post
    1) Well, the way you phrased it certainly comes of as partially ambiguous in its intention:
    Hmm, I don't see the ambiguity, but if you do then that's fine.

    I separate them from the Justice League, b/c the JL is more of a business relationship. You get recruited, do some missions, then go off doing your own thing. Just like the Avengers - not much sentiment.

    The Bat "family" are all focused on Gotham, focused on street level crime and activity, are all non-metas, are usually young and idealistic (besides Bruce), all have support of each other personally and "professionally", all look to Bruce for guidance, etc etc. Their ties are much more stronger than any other "family" that can truly/successfully be expanded on for DC, that I can think of.

    Again, yeah, they're redundant and seeing more citizen-level support would be nice, and having an Oracle-esque figure (what's Harper Row up to nowadays?) and Leslie Thompkins being more prominent, etc would all be great. But you gotta take what you can get. Those more non-superhero characters won't have a chance to be important, in the eyes of DC's editors making the $ decisions, if the Bat line isn't expanding as it is. The oversaturation is kind of like a necessary evil to hopefully one day get more GCPD appearances or a new Oracle to show up. Plus, we're kinda getting that non-superhero vibe w/ Gotham Academy, Gotham by Midnight, and perhaps Arkham Manor.
    Comics were definitely happier, breezier and more confident in their own strengths before Hollywood and the Internet turned the business of writing superhero stories into the production of low budget storyboards or, worse, into conformist, fruitless attempts to impress or entertain a small group of people who appear to hate comics and their creators. -- Grant Morrison, 2008

    Sometimes things are special because they don't last. -- Zhi, Tales from the Loop

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Red Monk View Post
    1) I wasn't talking in terms of popularity. Yes, Captain Marvel/Shazam/Billy Batson and his family are not as popular (unfortunately). That does not mean DC should use the Batman franchise for experiments that are better suited to the Marvel family. And at least the Superman family are related, more or less (Supergirl and Power Girl, both Superman's cousins, Superboy, Superman's clone).
    Related in blood does not equal being a family. Specially for the Kryptionian that was sent away from his planet at birth and was raised on a farm instead.

    2) I wasn't talking about Batman patrolling the city by himself, dude, I was talking about Batman being rich, handsome, skilled, smart and so on. These are all pretty much staples of superhero comics, with superheroes being stronger, smarter, richer and sexier than you since their inception.
    And they can still do all that as well as write about the characters they want to write about while leeching of Batman's popularity in the meanwhile (the best way to stay afloat in DC Comics these days).

  8. #23
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    The only good thing about the bat fam is the rare cute heartwarming moments like movie nights, breakfast,planning for Batmans birthday that he doesn't care about,and getting batman to care about his birthday.
    Anything else is just throwing dumb kids/teens together because Batman needs to be the father figure for every kid in Gotham now
    Last edited by Nite-Wing; 08-18-2014 at 05:02 AM.

  9. #24
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    It's quite obvious that damian is coming back as Robin(maybe he will look different or this event will change him). Batwoman and Hawkfire are not in the family. They do their own things and don't participate in his events f.e. night of owls or death of the family. There are no signs about Helena Wayne so she is not coming back soon. Julia will be next Alfred. So family consists of Bruce, Dick, Barbara, Jason, Tim, Damian(when he returns). Harper and Lark?(maybe Cullen Row) will join soon.I think Steph and Cass will have to wait before they join family. I think DC is trying to create 2nd generation of batfamily and let the first generation do their own things. First generation will have their own adventures and Batman will cooperate with 2nd generation and train them. I think first generation will come to help Batman in big events and 2nd generation will be with him all the time.

  10. #25
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    I like all of them in small doses, but the thing is really bloated and leads to Bat-related stuff saturating the market. Which is probably a smart business decision on DC's part, but kills the diversity of content in their line. I wish we could get more experimental books like Dial H and Demon Knights, or even second books for Wonder Woman and Aquaman, instead of Bat-Vigilante #346.

    While I have a more positive view of them than Red Monk, I really do agree with him that their presence takes away from Bruce and Dick at times, not to mention the Gotham cops.

  11. #26
    Incredible Member PyroSikTh's Avatar
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    Providing they all hold a unique place, I don't mind how many there are. That said, let's be realistic about who's actually part of the bat-family here.

    - Batman is obviously the head of the family.
    - Grayson, Red Robin, Red Hood, and Damian (Robin?) are his adopted (or genetic) sons, so definitely part of the family.
    - Next tier below that is Batgirl and Batwing. Accepted members of the family who don't have such a strong connection to Bruce. It's safe to say Bluebird will be added here too.

    After that it gets sticky.
    - Batwoman is, to a layman, part of the costumed family of crime-fighters, but she's an outsider who has and wants nothing to do with the inner workings of the family. She's not even connected to someone close to Bruce; she's a copycat.
    - Alfred and Gordon could definitely be considered part of the family, but with no secret identities I tend not to count them. They're not superheroes after all (well Alfred might be, with all he manages to juggle with everyone else). Bard could be placed here also.
    - Spoiler's future is uncertain, but I expect she'll inhabit the same place as Batwoman - a costumed Gotham hero who's not actually part of the family.
    - Huntress doesn't count because A) she's barely been in Gotham and B) she's from a completely different world (which she's also going back to). If we count her, we should probably count Earth-2 Thomas Wayne as well, which is illogical.
    - Julia Pennyworth, at the moment, is nothing more than a supporting character. There's no point including her or posturing about her inclusion.
    - Hawkfire is not a part of the Bat-family. Batwoman-family, yeah, but not the big, main family. Has she even met anyone else?
    - Catwoman is a whole other kettle of fish - half hero, half villain. Honestly, she could go either way and I'd have no complaints.
    - Then there's also that "completely new" character we were teased in Batman 28. Who knows where they'll go.

    So really, the Bat-family will only be adding one new member after Eternal - Bluebird. Spoiler may or may not, but I doubt it. She's barely featured in Eternal so far. The size of the family after this consideration isn't actually that big at all. It's the four Robins, Batgirl, and Batwing (the latter of which could also be bundled up with the rest of the Batmen of Many Nations). It was bigger during the War Games period when we also had Oracle, Black Bat and Onyx.

    P.S. I miss Oracle.
    Last edited by PyroSikTh; 08-18-2014 at 07:35 AM.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Red Monk View Post
    It doesn't take a genius to notice that all over the net, from Comic Vine to Super Hero Hype to Comic Alliance to here, the reaction either alternates from "MORE Bat characters? Why?" to "Well, I suppose I'll see what they have to offer.", not "Boy, do I wish that DC would give us EVEN MORE generic vigilantes in Gotham City!". From that, it's logical to infer that next to no-one is actually asking for these characters.
    except that you know, you can't tell what every single fan is thinking. and the internet is never a representive of the overall consensus. i don't nessasarily disagree with most of your sentiment, nut you have to realize your speaking for an entire group of people with no way of backing it up

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroSikTh View Post
    - Batwoman is, to a layman, part of the costumed family of crime-fighters, but she's an outsider who has and wants nothing to do with the inner workings of the family. She's not even connected to someone close to Bruce; she's a copycat.
    I don't know if you knew that but Kate Kane aka Batwoman is Bruce Wayne cousin. So the blood connection is there to support the fact she is indeed part of the Batfamily. And she is featured in Batman Eternal.

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Batwoman is the only actual character who is related to Bruce and they seem like they like each other. Although I guess Batwoman doesn't know Bruce is Batman does she?
    That more than anything I assume puts her on the outs with the family

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by PyroSikTh View Post
    Providing they all hold a unique place, I don't mind how many there are. That said, let's be realistic about who's actually part of the bat-family here.

    - Batman is obviously the head of the family.
    - Grayson, Red Robin, Red Hood, and Damian (Robin?) are his adopted (or genetic) sons, so definitely part of the family.
    - Next tier below that is Batgirl and Batwing. Accepted members of the family who don't have such a strong connection to Bruce. It's safe to say Bluebird will be added here too.

    After that it gets sticky.
    - Batwoman is, to a layman, part of the costumed family of crime-fighters, but she's an outsider who has and wants nothing to do with the inner workings of the family. She's not even connected to someone close to Bruce; she's a copycat.
    - Alfred and Gordon could definitely be considered part of the family, but with no secret identities I tend not to count them. They're not superheroes after all (well Alfred might be, with all he manages to juggle with everyone else). Bard could be placed here also.
    - Spoiler's future is uncertain, but I expect she'll inhabit the same place as Batwoman - a costumed Gotham hero who's not actually part of the family.
    - Huntress doesn't count because A) she's barely been in Gotham and B) she's from a completely different world (which she's also going back to). If we count her, we should probably count Earth-2 Thomas Wayne as well, which is illogical.
    - Julia Pennyworth, at the moment, is nothing more than a supporting character. There's no point including her or posturing about her inclusion.
    - Hawkfire is not a part of the Bat-family. Batwoman-family, yeah, but not the big, main family. Has she even met anyone else?
    - Catwoman is a whole other kettle of fish - half hero, half villain. Honestly, she could go either way and I'd have no complaints.
    - Then there's also that "completely new" character we were teased in Batman 28. Who knows where they'll go.

    So really, the Bat-family will only be adding one new member after Eternal - Bluebird. Spoiler may or may not, but I doubt it. She's barely featured in Eternal so far. The size of the family after this consideration isn't actually that big at all. It's the four Robins, Batgirl, and Batwing (the latter of which could also be bundled up with the rest of the Batmen of Many Nations). It was bigger during the War Games period when we also had Oracle, Black Bat and Onyx.

    P.S. I miss Oracle.
    These are good suggestions. The Family itself should consist of Bruce, the three adopted sons, and the biological son--with Alfred and the Bat-Pets tossed in. I like the occasional movie nights with popcorn, family portraits, etc. Unlike Superman and Captain Marvel, Bruce Wayne is a FATHER, and this can make for very good storylines. "Accepted" extended family members--Batgirl, maybe Batwing. I wouldn't mind Cass resuming her adopted daughter status. Otherwise, the previous poster is right--I don't recall anyone begging for the addition of a "Bluebird"--this is just a writer pushing a pet creation--what can she do that Steph (an established character) can't? What's the point beyond humoring a star writer? But supporting characters are OK in small doses--Gotham is a BIG town, inhabited by millions of people (most of them criminals), and Bruce really can't be everywhere at one time, no matter how much he wants to.

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