View Poll Results: What is your ideal number for the Bat Family?

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  • Just Batman - no sidekicks

    5 4.07%
  • + 1 (Robin)

    4 3.25%
  • +1-2 (Robin & Batgirl)

    10 8.13%
  • +1-3 (Nightwing, Batgirl & Robin)

    21 17.07%
  • +1-5 (Nightwing, Oracle, Robin, Huntress & Batgirl?)

    15 12.20%
  • +1-7 (Nightwing, Oracle, Robin, Huntress, Batgirl, Red Hood & Batwoman?)

    5 4.07%
  • +1-9 (Nightwing, Oracle, Robin, Huntress, Batgirl, Red Hood, Batwoman, Red Robin & Black Bat?)

    20 16.26%
  • +1-19 (Nightwing, Oracle, Robin, Huntress, Batgirl, Red Hood, Batwoman, Red Robin & Incorporated)

    9 7.32%
  • +1-99 (Nightwing, Oracle, Robin, Huntress, Man-Bat, Bat-Cow & every other Bat Family ever created)

    34 27.64%
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  1. #76
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Its kind of makes sense though. Batman had to teach himself how to do what he does from many different teachings. Where others have the advantage of Bruce teaching them his refined craft.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Its kind of makes sense though. Batman had to teach himself how to do what he does from many different teachings. Where others have the advantage of Bruce teaching them his refined craft.
    It kind of doesn't though. What you say is right, assuming Bruce is as good as a teacher as he is as a student, that's an advantage to the Birdie Bunch; however, the day has 24 hours. How tight do you want it to be: is 5 hours of street work, 5 hours of research, 5 hours of faking Bruce, 5 hours of sleep, 2 hours of training and the rest for eating showering and other good enough for you? Let's say robin is 7 hours in school, 8 sleeping, 3 for showering, transportation and meals, and two for homework, that would be about four for training, which makes sense. Batman would train with him 2 hours and he'd be on his own other two. I think that'd be excellent training, only I don't think it would take him less than 4 years of that to start trying the streets, and he would barely have any time for that. It would be more practical for Batman and every other JLAer to send them to some sort of boarding school for sidekicks.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    its funny how batman had to train for like 10 years to get as good as he got but later on when he takes on sidekicks they only need a few weeks under Bruce and they become super operators. Stuff like that makes the characters seem even more sue-ish than batman.
    Who said anything about Batman being sueish. Sues get everything handed and easy, Bruce had to do some brutal training that is always part of his origins montages... You know, with the pick holding a chemistry set, the other one with mountains and another with those acrobatic ring things that hang from chains. Dick just does the bible swearing with the candle and that it, instant sidekick. Plug and play. If it gets broken, just buy another one at some circus, or whisper to the neighbors' kids and say "hey, kid, you want to fight crime? Just hop into my windowless van. There is candy too".

  4. #79
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    Don't try and apply real world math/time (hell, reality) to superhero comics. That's always a bad idea. If you want to do that, there's absolutely, positively now way Bruce can become a master of every known martial art, a master detective, strategist, tactician, an Olympic class athlete and acrobat, and a master escape artist in the 6-12 years (depending on the writer) he goes off to train.

    Also, it's not like just after a year of training Bruce set 'em loose on the world all on their own. All the Robins were still training and under his strict supervision up until they very moment they moved on to other identities.

    And lastly, IDK, personally, I have absolutely no interest in reading a DC comic where all the sidekicks are shipped off to boarding school to learn their trade away from their mentors. There's something about the mentor/mentee dynamic that I just find way more entertaining.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardNigma View Post
    Of course that is why we see all those Red Robin movies, Huntress animated series, and Damian Robin video games........oh. wait......
    Batman is more iconic, yes, but the supporting characters have much more personality and actually get to grow and experience character development.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Don't try and apply real world math/time (hell, reality) to superhero comics. That's always a bad idea. If you want to do that, there's absolutely, positively now way Bruce can become a master of every known martial art, a master detective, strategist, tactician, an Olympic class athlete and acrobat, and a master escape artist in the 6-12 years (depending on the writer) he goes off to train.

    Also, it's not like just after a year of training Bruce set 'em loose on the world all on their own. All the Robins were still training and under his strict supervision up until they very moment they moved on to other identities.

    And lastly, IDK, personally, I have absolutely no interest in reading a DC comic where all the sidekicks are shipped off to boarding school to learn their trade away from their mentors. There's something about the mentor/mentee dynamic that I just find way more entertaining.
    Maybe he took a course on memorizing things and read books about all that stuff? I dunno. Well, yeah, you're right. However, Robin hitting the streets some weeks after he was taken in is stretching suspension of disbelief way too much, even if he is not completely on his own (which he often is, if you read the comics). I can even take Batmite a lot easier than that.

    The boarding school thing already happened. It's called Young Justice and was a hit. (I'm aware that the way I fist said it, it sounded like some sort of Harry Potter deal, but I was always making a reference to YJ). And are you crazy? People love all-star teams, even if they are all-star sidekicks.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by catbatfan View Post
    Batman is more iconic, yes, but the supporting characters have much more personality and actually get to grow and experience character development.
    Mmm. Yeah, no. Sorry. There's definitively a market for people eating that garbage, and a good part of loyal comic book fans are prone to crave for the Mary Sue experience, but no, all sidekicks combined would probably just get 50% of Batman's screentime. And after Dick and Barbara, the rest just get the scraps. Poor Jason is scrapping the pan. There is a reason people want stories of Batman at his prime more than the Birdie Bunch.

  8. #83
    Mighty Member dropkickjake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    Mmm. Yeah, no. Sorry. There's definitively a market for people eating that garbage, and a good part of loyal comic book fans are prone to crave for the Mary Sue experience, but no, all sidekicks combined would probably just get 50% of Batman's screentime. And after Dick and Barbara, the rest just get the scraps. Poor Jason is scrapping the pan. There is a reason people want stories of Batman at his prime more than the Birdie Bunch.
    Well, the fact that Batman is largely a static character is a legitimate reason to find his supporting cast, many of whom are very dynamic characters, more interesting. I'd hardly call wanting to see a character grow and change "eating up that garbage." As for this "Mary Sue experience," well, I have no idea what you are talking about. No idea whatsoever. It makes no sense with the original meaning of Mary Sue (a character created as an AUTHOR insert character), and it makes no sense in the generally used sense either (the "ohmygosh so perfect!" Mary Sue).

    Either way, using screen time in Hollywood productions is hardly a fair metric for whether or not a character is interesting. Screentime in DC films reveals that WB has not been particularly willing to gamble in the past, and instead stuck with the safe characters of Batman and Superman. Five years ago, the EXACT same thing could have been said of Peter Quill. "He wouldn't get half the screen time as Spiderman." That didn't stop Guardians from destroying at the box office.

  9. #84
    Astonishing Member DurararaFTW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rafa-Rivas-2099 View Post
    I don't see how acn you object, what I'm proposing is quite similar. By age 18, Dick has had 6 years of the best training and involvement in serious crime fighting, Id' say 4 from a safe distance and 2 as a "partner" (like cops do), so, he is trying the waters with JLA supervision as part of the Titans.
    The premise I was objecting to was Dick first becoming a sidekick at an adult and starting his training with the Titans at as an adult.

    I didn't make much of a description, to begin with, but no, in Teen Titans Go! there was absolutely no adult supervision or JLA involvement. Perhaps you got confused because I'd like that to happen with a Teen Titans Go roster.
    But Young Justice was allowed to go and have missions. Teen Titans Go! mostly just stayed in. ate pizza and stuff. And in Young Justice, by the time he was 18 Dick was a fully autonomous superhero rather then still the last and least of the superhero community.

    It's obvious that you're just trying to contradict. Under the premise that Dick and Roy meet Batman and Green Arrow around age 12, and they start getting practice at 16 and they join the Titans by age 18, they are less experienced than most of the JLA. Say Batman meets Dick on his second or third year, that would be around the same point the likes of Flash, Green Lantern, Elongated Man, the Atom and the Hawks take spandex to the streets. So by the point Robin debuts Green Lantern, Flash and the rest have been around at least 3 years, not to mention that they are adults, with previous training as army pilots, cops, marines, detectives, space cops, amazon warriors and even escapists. So the entire list of JLAers with more street experience include Batman, Green Arrow, Martian Manhunter, Flash, Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Hawkman, the Atom, Black Canary, Elongated Man, Phantom Stranger, Hawkwoman. Zee is dabatable and Reddie is a robot, so he just needs the programming. The only rookie JLAer would be Firestorm and that situation would mirror what happened with Captain Marvel in the show. Now that's according to how I'd like things. You have to take in consideration that the TT rooster we have been talking about happened in the silver age, and back then it's likely that most JLAers, debuted at the same time as Robin, only with more age and skills in related fields, which would also make them ideal coaches.
    But that is not the premise. In the Silver Age, Supes and Bats were still basically the first superheros and Robin joined them fairly early on and their jaunts across the universe were still canon. Having him then go to be mother hen'd by any given JLAer has a free Friday is a quite the step backwards.

  10. #85
    Fantastic Member EdwardNigma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catbatfan View Post
    Batman is more iconic, yes, but the supporting characters have much more personality and actually get to grow and experience character development.
    LOL that was a joke right? Batman has more personality and character development than all of them combined. They could all die tomorrow and half the fans wouldn't care. Bruce is important. Dick is important. Jason is interesting. The rest are worthless, contrived, and boring.

  11. #86
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    It makes Batman seem really irresponsible seeing as he can only possibly have trained them for like a few months and then they go out onto the field.
    Then you constantly have instances were DC tries to play up where one of the Robins could possibly be as good if not better than Batman in anything when he's literally probably only trained them for a few months.
    The only Robin I can buy having the most training is Damian and that's partly because he's an unrealistic test tube baby who has been trained since the moment he was born. Everyone else is just there to subtlety make Batman's training seem super easy. I mean 10 years for Bruce is now equal to 1 year of training for a Robin

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by dropkickjake View Post
    Well, the fact that Batman is largely a static character is a legitimate reason to find his supporting cast, many of whom are very dynamic characters, more interesting. I'd hardly call wanting to see a character grow and change "eating up that garbage." As for this "Mary Sue experience," well, I have no idea what you are talking about. No idea whatsoever. It makes no sense with the original meaning of Mary Sue (a character created as an AUTHOR insert character), and it makes no sense in the generally used sense either (the "ohmygosh so perfect!" Mary Sue).
    Finally! Someone who gets it! Thank you very much!

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdwardNigma View Post
    LOL that was a joke right? Batman has more personality and character development than all of them combined. They could all die tomorrow and half the fans wouldn't care. Bruce is important. Dick is important. Jason is interesting. The rest are worthless, contrived, and boring.
    We'll just have to agree to disagree! ;-)

  14. #89
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by catbatfan View Post
    The Batfamily characters are more interesting than Batman himself, so no.
    Obviously, opinions vary and I respect that. But for me, the Bat-Family centric stories usually involve reducing Bruce to being the stoic patriarch while all the extroverted kids get all the attention. Bruce's personality is often reduced to give the kids something to do. Furthermore, they're not all that unique either. Jason is the woobified bad boy who makes girls weak in the knees, Steph is pretty much cut from the same cloth as Buffy Summers (and is significantly less interesting), Tim is a mini hybrid of Bruce and Dick without being as interesting as either, etc.

    Batman and his major supporting cast and villains are so archetypal that they can be reinterpreted in various different ways. Nolan's grounded realism crime drama is wildly dissimilar to Burton's dark fairy tale, but both are true to the spirit of Batman. The sidekicks are pretty dependent on their continuity heavy stories and history that they are the ones who come across as being more static to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by dropkickjake View Post
    Either way, using screen time in Hollywood productions is hardly a fair metric for whether or not a character is interesting. Screentime in DC films reveals that WB has not been particularly willing to gamble in the past, and instead stuck with the safe characters of Batman and Superman. Five years ago, the EXACT same thing could have been said of Peter Quill. "He wouldn't get half the screen time as Spiderman." That didn't stop Guardians from destroying at the box office.
    The difference is that a movie with Peter Quill in it won't have anything to do with Spider-Man or his corner of the MU. He was the star of the movie. The Bat-sidekicks are supporting characters, so they need to have a reason for being there or else they will take up space.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by DurararaFTW View Post
    The premise I was objecting to was Dick first becoming a sidekick at an adult and starting his training with the Titans at as an adult.



    But Young Justice was allowed to go and have missions. Teen Titans Go! mostly just stayed in. ate pizza and stuff. And in Young Justice, by the time he was 18 Dick was a fully autonomous superhero rather then still the last and least of the superhero community.



    But that is not the premise. In the Silver Age, Supes and Bats were still basically the first superheros and Robin joined them fairly early on and their jaunts across the universe were still canon. Having him then go to be mother hen'd by any given JLAer has a free Friday is a quite the step backwards.
    Sorry I had not tuned the premise. Maybe two years as a sidekick of moderated participation would make sense.

    I see where you are coming from. However in TTG! pretty much participated in every mission they wanted without any adult supervision, they had a mission every episode like YJ and they decided when to stay in as well. That's the situation that doesn't make sense to me. In YJ, the missions were hand picked for them.

    I'm aware that it's not the premise being used, the one being used makes absolutely no sense (4 robins in 5 years), which is why I am explicitly trying to figure out one that would make sense (remember, you were replying to "*Dick is Bruce's ward, as a kid he just trains and aids from the cave, and as he becomes an adult he becomes an occasional sidekick training with the Titans", which clearly and explicitly belongs to a list of ideal supporting cast as I'd do them). And if we talk about the silver age version, arguably, yes, if you use the golden age debut order, Robin started before everybody but Batman and Superman, if you only go what was shown in the silver age, he might have debuted after Green Arrow, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, the Martian and before the rest of the leaguers. In both cases he started around age 12 with little training. However, since there was no clear silver age reset, and writer didn't mean to make him old, it is possible that Robin debuted at another point. Likely after the Flash. Just as it happened in The New Frontier. I don't know if they did a retcon story about that, If he was in Englehart's white martian story, that means he debuted before Hal, Ralph and Ray.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nite-Wing View Post
    The only Robin I can buy having the most training is Damian and that's partly because he's an unrealistic test tube baby who has been trained since the moment he was born. Everyone else is just there to subtlety make Batman's training seem super easy. I mean 10 years for Bruce is now equal to 1 year of training for a Robin
    Morrison made the perfect paradox with that character. His age is the most ludicrous for a sidekick, yet his backstory makes him the easiest to believe: He was trained with advanced DCU technology from birth.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Obviously, opinions vary and I respect that. But for me, the Bat-Family centric stories usually involve reducing Bruce to being the stoic patriarch while all the extroverted kids get all the attention. Bruce's personality is often reduced to give the kids something to do. Furthermore, they're not all that unique either. Jason is the woobified bad boy who makes girls weak in the knees, Steph is pretty much cut from the same cloth as Buffy Summers (and is significantly less interesting), Tim is a mini hybrid of Bruce and Dick without being as interesting as either, etc.

    Batman and his major supporting cast and villains are so archetypal that they can be reinterpreted in various different ways. Nolan's grounded realism crime drama is wildly dissimilar to Burton's dark fairy tale, but both are true to the spirit of Batman. The sidekicks are pretty dependent on their continuity heavy stories and history that they are the ones who come across as being more static to me.



    The difference is that a movie with Peter Quill in it won't have anything to do with Spider-Man or his corner of the MU. He was the star of the movie. The Bat-sidekicks are supporting characters, so they need to have a reason for being there or else they will take up space.
    Yes, sidekicks are pretty irrelevant. This is why in adaptations they use interchangeable identities, like the Tim-Jason of BTAS, or the "some orphan" of Nolan. As if the role and the niche is all that mattes. Robin is less necessary in a Batman story than a villain (Joker, Falcone, Penguin, Ra's Al Ghul, or whoever you put in the origin story), and onece there, you only need him to be an orphan, younger than Batman and more optimistic. The name is irrelevant, and having more than one in a story is irrelevant. Each subsequent Robin is a less interesting sequel. Rocky I, Rocky II, Rocky III, Rocky VI... Jaws, Jaws II, Jaws III, you get the picture.
    Last edited by Rafa-Rivas-2099; 08-30-2014 at 10:32 AM.

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