Batfamily Explosion!

[oasis1313]

What's wrong with a guy having it ALL? I think Bruce having three adopted sons, one biological son, and one adopted daughter is fine. I would make them all closer to the same age, and give Bruce a real home life so he could get away from "the darkness" for awhile. I'd like to see him realize the truth--that he is a mortal man--and think about his legacy, training his five kids to carry on not only the fight against crime and injustice, but the fight for good--have 'em all start in the mail room of Wayne Enterprises and eventually head up Wayne Corp divisions in different parts of the world. And I'd have him marry Silver St Cloud.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

Yes, and he needs one daughter: Cassandra.

No, she can barely hold a candle to any of the other sidekicks, almost nobody cares about her.

I would make them all closer to the same age, and give Bruce a real home life so he could get away from "the darkness" for awhile. I'd like to see him realize the truth--that he is a mortal man--and think about his legacy, training his five kids to carry on not only the fight against crime and injustice, but the fight for good--have 'em all start in the mail room of Wayne Enterprises and eventually head up Wayne Corp divisions in different parts of the world. And I'd have him marry Silver St Cloud.

Ughhh. I just tasted my puke. Ew. So cloying, so fanficish. Oh, the humanity!

We have been over this: It's fanfic garbage, diminishes the Batman mythos, too Brady Bunch, constitutes an ineffective network, they are a bunch of liabilities, the training of most of the doesn't make sense.

[catbatfan]

What's wrong with a guy having it ALL? I think Bruce having three adopted sons, one biological son, and one adopted daughter is fine. I would make them all closer to the same age, and give Bruce a real home life so he could get away from "the darkness" for awhile. I'd like to see him realize the truth--that he is a mortal man--and think about his legacy, training his five kids to carry on not only the fight against crime and injustice, but the fight for good--have 'em all start in the mail room of Wayne Enterprises and eventually head up Wayne Corp divisions in different parts of the world. And I'd have him marry Silver St Cloud.

I agreed with everything in your post up until the last sentence. The only woman Bruce should marry is Selina Kyle.

[catbatfan]

No, she can barely hold a candle to any of the other sidekicks, almost nobody cares about her.

Yeeeeeeeeah, that's simply not true. Fans have been demanding her return since the New 52. Heck, we wanted her back in action when DC started marginalizing her around 2006. You might also want to keep in mind she has top-quality fans in creators like Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder.

BTW, Cass can't hold a candle to the other sidekicks because she's too busy kicking all their asses.

[EdwardNigma]

We'll just have to agree to disagree! ;-)

Fair enough.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

Yeeeeeeeeah, that's simply not true. Fans have been demanding her return since the New 52. Heck, we wanted her back in action when DC started marginalizing her around 2006. You might also want to keep in mind she has top-quality fans in creators like Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder.

BTW, Cass can't hold a candle to the other sidekicks because she's too busy kicking all their asses.

Mmmmmmm no... I have to say no. I'm not a fan of either, but it's quite clear that the roar is for Steph. I could grant you that enough comic book fans would prefer her to Barbara as Batgirl, a number that diminishes as time passes. However, as either Oracle or Batgirl, Barbara, like Dick, Tim, Steph and (I dare to say) even Damian, is way more popular than Cass. Sorry, but that's the true. Kill Cass only a few early 00s fans would cry, kill Dick and poor Dan might get beaten on the streets (or the aisles of the convention centers).

And no, if Morrison was such a fan, he would have done more than including her in a cameo. Let's say DC hates her more than Ralph Dibny or Wally West (actually, it's quite probable)... in the end, Snyder did create one more female Batman sidekick that pushes Cass further aside.

I think even Damian would kick her ass.

[Aioros22]

The birds are dependants, the true network (even by the meaning of the term) would be the likes of Gordon, Alfred, Bard (John in Dark Knight Rises), Fox, Ace, Leslie, Bullock and with less recurring Renee, Vicky, Langstrom and Nichols. People that help from different angles. I'd even add characters from other media like Chief Miles O'Hara, Summer Gleeson, Father Michael Stromwell, Karl Rossum, Dr. Joan Leland, the Gray Ghost or Alexander Knox

The thread is about the family, not the network. The network is the system, aka: the agentes. And that`s exactly the role they serve.

The Birds are the Family and that includes Alfred. They are less dependable than the rest you have listed save Gordon. You can have Batman without Bulluck, Ace (really?) or Leslie. I`m not even touching the rest because they are more obscure.

Batman has had the Family aspect engrained in the character since 1941. The question here is if the Family should include some characters Batman works with on a routine basis like: Huntress, Azrael, catwoman, Harold, Blue Bird, etc. And I personally do not.

[CapeandCowl]

There's too many, I'd say myself.Bat,man for me works as as few Bat characters as possible in a movie. There is no way they will ever IMHO make a Batman movie down the road with that many Batfamily characters.

[godisawesome]

Now there's an interesting distinction. And I might actually get behind you there. I believe that the Bat-line should expand as far as possible, and I'm a major supporter of multiple Bat-women and Bat-men, but I think I could easily take an expanded network where only a few members are actual "family," so to speak.

I want me a generation three of the Bat-clan featuring Tim, Steph, and Cass, all preferably restructured more along the lines of their classic characterizations than anything else. And that classic characterization actually was largely more of network, at a least at the start, then a family. Tim was the Robin who was a "partner" with a home life away from the cave, Steph was the original volunteer from the wrong side of the tracks, and Cass seemed to view Bruce as more of a Sensei figure than an outright father figure. All three evolved farther, but combined with Azrael and Huntress to form a somewhat more professional group of hangers-on than familial ties. And Bluebird, thanks to her derivation as a Steph and Cass replacement, seems headed for a similar place.

Babs also kind of held a similar place, and still does. She's still a largely autonomous force for good with Batman as a kind of sponsor and commander. I would argue that she was more of an equal to Batman as Oracle than she is now, but she still stands tall be herself and is Gordon's daughter first, Batman's apprentice second.

So maybe the distinction is needed once more. Just start writing everyone a bit more as agents if they're agents, and family if they're family. There's even a plausible excuse for Batman enforcing a more professional relationship than before; Jason's death and Babs's injury. And Damian's biological relation breaks the pattern Batman set up, hurting himself just a little more.

The biggest issue with this is that since Bruce is really an extremely compassionate and caring guy, it's hard to write him entirely as a professional boss without letting some kind of paternalistic bond form.

And again, I just want all my favorite and proven to be successful Bat-characters back. Cass is still the most badass Batgirl in a physical fight, and easily the most high concept. So being her back, and if you have to stick her in someone else's sphere of influence in the network to keep the family small, do so. Babs can play big sister; it would probably be a lot of fun. Or make her the muscle to Red Robin; seriously, they need to start writing him more as. Dixon character than some Nightwing expy. Or do the comedic foil route with Steph and Harper; the other two can be the loudmouths while Cass is the silent snarker.

[godisawesome]

There's too many, I'd say myself.Bat,man for me works as as few Bat characters as possible in a movie. There is no way they will ever IMHO make a Batman movie down the road with that many Batfamily characters.

I figure the most obvious way to see the family is either through TV (if Gotham is successful and Arrow continues to rock, I could see a Gotham Knights style show) or through the late 80s, early 90s status quo on screen (Affleck's Batman could be weary from having lost Jason, seen Babs injured, and being estranged from Dick) since it's actually a pretty good jumping on point for inexperienced Batman fans. It worked for me and most of my peers, and the status quo from the Arkham series is just a bit further evolved.

[The Red Monk]

The thread is about the family, not the network. The network is the system, aka: the agentes. And that`s exactly the role they serve.

The Birds are the Family and that includes Alfred. They are less dependable than the rest you have listed save Gordon. You can have Batman without Bulluck, Ace (really?) or Leslie. I`m not even touching the rest because they are more obscure.

Batman has had the Family aspect engrained in the character since 1941. The question here is if the Family should include some characters Batman works with on a routine basis like: Huntress, Azrael, catwoman, Harold, Blue Bird, etc. And I personally do not.

No, Batman has had the sidekick aspect ingrained in his character since 1941. The Family did not really come into existence until the 1970's or so, and even then it wasn't the Family of Batman playing daddy-bat to 20 different vigilantes, most of them teenagers. That Family only came into focus around the 1990's. Although some sneaky Bat-fans try to include Dick Grayson's debut as proof that the Bat-Family of Batman, Nightwing, Red Hood, Red Robin, Robin, Batgirl, Batgirl II, Batgirl III, etc, was there at the start of the concept.

Also, yes, you can have Batman without Bullock, or Leslie or Ace. You can also have a Batman without Tim, Jason, Steph, Cass and others. Heck, if anything, Bullock is probably more integral to Batman mythos than them.

[CapeandCowl]

I like that! I so want Affleck to suceed as Batman and having him get a grieving backstory over a fallen apprentice would so work in that film. I am oldfshion but I would like it if Affleck was similiar to Michael Keaton's Batman something fans could connect to between the 2 different projects, the 1989 and 1992 films with Keaton and the Affleck movies.

[SiegePerilous02]

No, Batman has had the sidekick aspect ingrained in his character since 1941. The Family did not really come into existence until the 1970's or so, and even then it wasn't the Family of Batman playing daddy-bat to 20 different vigilantes, most of them teenagers. That Family only came into focus around the 1990's. Although some sneaky Bat-fans try to include Dick Grayson's debut as proof that the Bat-Family of Batman, Nightwing, Red Hood, Red Robin, Robin, Batgirl, Batgirl II, Batgirl III, etc, was there at the start of the concept.

Also, yes, you can have Batman without Bullock, or Leslie or Ace. You can also have a Batman without Tim, Jason, Steph, Cass and others. Heck, if anything, Bullock is probably more integral to Batman mythos than them.

I'd say the real start of the extended "Bat-Family" concept began with Kathy and Bette Kane, Ace the Bat Hound, that pet Bat-Gorilla they had for 5 minutes or whatever, and Bat-Mite in the 1950s. It's just that those days aren't very well regarded and late Silver Age/Bronze Age writers jettisoned all that stuff out of embarrassment. The Kane women were phased out in favor of the more independent Barbara Gordon, while Batman's only constant sidekick was Robin. And even then, Dick went off to college soon after, and spent more time in solo adventures or with the Teen Titans than with Batman. And with the films and various animated projects really drawing inspiration from that era, it's no surprise that generally a solo/small family focused Batman is more popular.

And QFT on Bullock. "Everyman" characters like him, Gordon and Montoya are far more relateable than the Bat Brats.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

The thread is about the family, not the network. The network is the system, aka: the agentes. And that`s exactly the role they serve.

The Birds are the Family and that includes Alfred. They are less dependable than the rest you have listed save Gordon. You can have Batman without Bulluck, Ace (really?) or Leslie. I`m not even touching the rest because they are more obscure.

Batman has had the Family aspect engrained in the character since 1941. The question here is if the Family should include some characters Batman works with on a routine basis like: Huntress, Azrael, catwoman, Harold, Blue Bird, etc. And I personally do not.

Yes, you are correct and the terms are clear, I was replying to someone saying that the family was a network.
You can have Batman without, Leslie or Bullock... and without Jason, Tim, Damian, Steph, Cass, Harper and the rest. It is quite common. You only need Batman and a villain. It all started with Batman, Gordon and a criminal. None of the rest of the characters is important, as you pointed. My point was that to a vigilante like Batman or the Shadow is way more important to have a network of people with key positions, skills and areas of expertise than a bunch of kids following him like puppies, who are in fact liabilities and make him look like a horribly irresponsible father figure.

The family aspect is almost as old as batman himself. But it wan't the freaking Brady Bunch with a Cosby aging problem. It was just robin. They added ludicrous, members in the 50s. Although they were independent, they were dropped because they were ridiculous. And they corrected that in the 70s. Both Robin and Batgirl became independent adults. Even Tim wasn't a problem, back to just Batman and Robin. I think the problem started with Cass and Steph.

To me the family should be just the Robin in turn. Nightwing, Batgirl and Catwoman should be close colaborators and Azrael and Huntress just people operating in the same city. If Jason isn't the Robin in turn, he works best underground, pushing daisies.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

And QFT on Bullock. "Everyman" characters like him, Gordon and Montoya are far more relateable than the Bat Brats.

Unless you have a soft spot for fanfic type of stuff. People that idolize them are the same ones who would have a fangasm if DC publishes a story in which the daughter of Tim and Steph dated the son of Dick and Barbara.

I agree, I would rather read stories like "A Bullet for Bullock" than anything with the whole Lameloid Bunch teaming up.